From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVI

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Actually, I always thought Bran had it but not Jon (I've seen nothing to indicate Jon has it). Rickon ? Maybe him too - after all, he did have the dream about Eddard's death too.

That being said, of the Stark children, Bran seems very empathic as well (maybe the most ?). Perhaps Sansa and Bran are the greenseers or empaths of the family; both were Catelyn's favourite children, perhaos the most like Cat in their nature.

Pperhaps the warging is a Stark trait, but the tendency towards being empathic or having green dreams is perhaps a Tully trait ? (Maybe it is just activated by the acquisition of their direwolves, and the awakening of magic in the world.)

Of these things, Bran alone has greensight and skinchanging. Others seem to be just one. Or maybe Sansa would have had full greenseer ability, if Lady had not died? And since Lady did die, it has limited her, and so she is somewhat empathic but will never reach her full potential with regard to being precognitive.

Theon had a dream about Robb's death, so I don't think it is a greenseer thing. Though I do think Theon has been chosen by the old gods since he was brother to the Stark children in a way. My personal crackpot is he will inact Bran's will.

Why Bran and Rickon dreamed about Nedd death?

Who was truly the one that saw it? Only Sansa. Arya was there but she didn´t see it.

Anyway Arya could have warg Nymeria and told about it to Summer and Shaggydog thru her. But I doubt it.

I trully believe that it is a connection between the Stark children, even the possibility of a coincidence is there.

They didn't dream about the death, they dreamt about him in the afterlife and knew what it meant.

[bgona]

I don´t remember exactly what they dream :blushing: jajaja. I have been a year that I read it (and Bran chapters only once).

I know that I have to make a reread but I can´t get the time to do it. Good that you remind it properly.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Me too. All of the Stark children have been scattered throughout Westeros and Essos, but Winterfell remains a binding symbol for all of them that seems to surpass the normal sentimental attachments of home. I'm not sure about what the nature of that is (the crypts, the godswood, the lichyard) and whether it varies with each child, but it would be interesting to explore further.

On that note, I always keep thinking about how Sansa is the first Stark child to be actually born in Winterfell. Robb was born in Riverrun (and also died in the Riverlands; this King in the North spent none of his actual reign there). I believe that Sansa's being the oldest Stark child actually born in Winterfell will be significant somehow.

[DrunkSister]

Theon had a dream about Robb's death, so I don't think it is a greenseer thing.

Makes me wonder how much 'magic' is present in the human races of the story. Plenty of other people display supernatural powers, we can conclude that all are magical, some more than others.

As for Rickon, we have Word of Martin that all Stark kids are wargs. :)

KittensRuleBeetsDrool,

I wonder if female Starks had a special role either in the worship of gods or in maintaining rituals because I can't see a heiress Stark in Winterfell behaving in the same way as a heir (because she lives in a warrior culture). She would probably find a husband (a cousin, perhaps) who would rule in her name and her children would inherit.

But she would still be important, and I think not just as a name or a place holder/gene donator. Can't wait to read new D&E.

[Kittykatknits]

Actually, I always thought Bran had it but not Jon (I've seen nothing to indicate Jon has it). Rickon ? Maybe him too - after all, he did have the dream about Eddard's death too.

That being said, of the Stark children, Bran seems very empathic as well (maybe the most ?). Perhaps Sansa and Bran are the greenseers or empaths of the family; both were Catelyn's favourite children, perhaos the most like Cat in their nature.

Pperhaps the warging is a Stark trait, but the tendency towards being empathic or having green dreams is perhaps a Tully trait ? (Maybe it is just activated by the acquisition of their direwolves, and the awakening of magic in the world.)

Of these things, Bran alone has greensight and skinchanging. Others seem to be just one. Or maybe Sansa would have had full greenseer ability, if Lady had not died? And since Lady did die, it has limited her, and so she is somewhat empathic but will never reach her full potential with regard to being precognitive.

Well, we are sorta getting to the crackpottery part of my thinking here. Bran fell and was in a coma for quite some time. It was while asleep that the 3EC first began to talk to him and he began warging. We do know that Bran has contacted Jon through the wierwoodnet and that he can already warg. My belief, which I should have explained in more detail, is that Jon's stabbing will put him under for awhile and that when he awakens that he'll be more in touch with his greensight side - whatever that may mean. I don't think he's going to be another Bran at all. More, I think there is something about the Stark kids and the Starks especially, an unknown connection to green or earth magic. We've seen their ability to warg but I think there is more. It's just to much that all six kids are wargs, Bran and Arya have warged more than one species at this point, we have empath skills, and greensight at the same time that the Others are awakening and the long winter approaches.

It's like earth magic is putting the needed pieces in place or getting the Starks ready for what's to come.

For some reason, your post has me obsessed with trying to figure out why there must always be a Stark in WF. As I said, I know this is pure speculation, I don't really have evidence to back it up. But, I like the potential for possibilities here.

Theon had a dream about Robb's death, so I don't think it is a greenseer thing. Though I do think Theon has been chosen by the old gods since he was brother to the Stark children in a way. My personal crackpot is he will inact Bran's will.

Bran's will, i.e. carry out his commands or be needed physical presence in the North on Bran's missions? How sad I read this three times and kept thinking will as in last will and testament.

KittensRuleBeetsDrool,

I wonder if female Starks had a special role either in the worship of gods or in maintaining rituals because I can't see a heiress Stark in Winterfell behaving in the same way as a heir (because she lives in a warrior culture). She would probably find a husband (a cousin, perhaps) who would rule in her name and her children would inherit.

But she would still be important, and I think not just as a name or a place holder/gene donator. Can't wait to read new D&E.

My pet theory about the next D&E is that Martin had a reason to hold back telling this story for a reason. It's going to tell us about history in the North and the she-wolves, giving us hints in to just how women can and have ruled WF in the past. As an extension of my pet theory, we are going to get tons of foreshadowing and hints on how the series might end. I could be wrong but I'm clinging to this until proven otherwise.

Hmm, after looking at the above, it appears my ability to perform analysis at this point is limited to crackpot and supposition these days.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Bran's will, i.e. carry out his commands or be needed physical presence in the North on Bran's missions? How sad I read this three times and kept thinking will as in last will and testament.

Yeah. That's what I meant. Bran's not favorite Stark, but I'm at the point where I think they have given enough (except maybe one final sacrifice at the end of the book, but seriously, need stop dying Starks).

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

- Bronn: Hellz yeah we need to stop the Stark death toll. :( But of the five children, the only one we know is dead is Robb. Sansa and Arya are very much alive, Bran I am convinced will live on even if not in human form, and I am also convinced that Rickon is alive on Skagos and Davos is going to wrangle him onto his ship and bring him back to White Harbor. (If anyone could handle a feral kid, it's Davos, though I wonder if he'll have to make a Rickon burrito the way Sandor caught Arya.)

And I think that the four Stark kids born in Winterfell will remain alive. Something tells me that Robb died because he was a Stark born in Riverrun, not Winterfell, and...

...that Kittykat is on to something when she surmises that the Starks have some connection to old earth magic. We have it on word of GRRM that magic is increasing in Westeros now, and I think the Targaryens are not the only ones with some sort of blood magic going on. I see Winterfell as a spiritual power-spot for the North - a temple in all but name. The Starks seem to be the keepers of the power and well-being of the North which is why there must always be one in Winterfell. Again agreed with Kitty that perhaps the D&E story of the She Wolves has been held back because it might give too much away. (And I can't wait to read it!)

When Bran and the Reeds stopped off at one of the Flints' while escaping from Winterfell, the Flint said that when Ned was alive and Lord of Winterfell, a woman could walk naked from there to the Wall (paraphrasing) and no-one would lay a hand on her. I doubt all the Starks were as good rulers as Ned, who seemed to have a special consideration for those he ruled, but I do think that the presence of someone of the Stark name and bloodline in the place called Winterfell meant that the heart and soul and people of the North were protected.

[Lummel]

oh, only two starks are confirmed dead so far, there are plenty more to get through before the end of the series :leaving: Maybe Benjen will be confirmed dead by the end, but the chances for survival for the others are probably as good as it gets. ASOIAF is telling their story...(fingers crossed).

Surely Kittykatknits will as in last will and testament comes from will as in this was what he willed. The gift chapter suggests that Bran is going to start playing a more active role in reaching out to, well however he needs to reach out to (unless it is bloodraven of course).

As to what GRRM will give away in the upcoming Dunk and Egg :dunno: there seem to be all kind of parallels and information in those stories. Something that plays on my mind from time to time is the

dwarves that Bloodraven has climbing up the privvy shaft to steal the dragon egg in The Mystery Knight

very silly I know but Tyrion, ASOS, ADWD, the talk about the casterly rock drains...hmmm

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

- Bronn: Hellz yeah we need to stop the Stark death toll. :( But of the five children, the only one we know is dead is Robb. Sansa and Arya are very much alive, Bran I am convinced will live on even if not in human form, and I am also convinced that Rickon is alive on Skagos and Davos is going to wrangle him onto his ship and bring him back to White Harbor. (If anyone could handle a feral kid, it's Davos, though I wonder if he'll have to make a Rickon burrito the way Sandor caught Arya.)

True, but I'm the sort, if VHS was still a viable format, I would rewind just so I can see Ned's head go back on and everything would be alright. :P

[Daenerys is my queen]

I think there is something more and that the original truth behind that saying may have been lost over time.

Also, Arya warged a Cat in Dance so they aren't limited to their wolves.

She did? I need to reread these books.

On that note, I always keep thinking about how Sansa is the first Stark child to be actually born in Winterfell. Robb was born in Riverrun (and also died in the Riverlands; this King in the North spent none of his actual reign there). I believe that Sansa's being the oldest Stark child actually born in Winterfell will be significant somehow.

Hmmm....that's interesting. Maybe it means that she's going to be the one to rebuild Winterfell. Maybe it means that she's going to be part of the -if there is one of course- magical connection between the Starks and Winterfell. It could mean a lot of things really. I definitely think it could be significant. :)

[Kittykatknits]

Yeah. That's what I meant. Bran's not favorite Stark, but I'm at the point where I think they have given enough (except maybe one final sacrifice at the end of the book, but seriously, need stop dying Starks).

I really hate the idea of one more sacrifice needed at the end of the book. I would say that Martin won't kill any Starks but I really think he would.

oh, only two starks are confirmed dead so far, there are plenty more to get through before the end of the series :leaving: Maybe Benjen will be confirmed dead by the end, but the chances for survival for the others are probably as good as it gets. ASOIAF is telling their story...(fingers crossed).

Surely Kittykatknits will as in last will and testament comes from will as in this was what he willed. The gift chapter suggests that Bran is going to start playing a more active role in reaching out to, well however he needs to reach out to (unless it is bloodraven of course).

When I first read it, my first reaction was to think that Bran was about to die which is an idea I don't care for.

I fall firmly in to the no more dead Starks camp.

very silly I know but Tyrion, ASOS, ADWD, the talk about the casterly rock drains...hmmm

She did? I need to reread these books.

Yes, she did it will blind.

[Mahaut]

More, I think there is something about the Stark kids and the Starks especially, an unknown connection to green or earth magic. We've seen their ability to warg but I think there is more. It's just to much that all six kids are wargs, Bran and Arya have warged more than one species at this point, we have empath skills, and greensight at the same time that the Others are awakening and the long winter approaches.

It's like earth magic is putting the needed pieces in place or getting the Starks ready for what's to come.

I so agree with you on this. I think it's stated in ADWD that: One man in a thousand is born a skinchanger, and one skinchanger in a thousand could be a greenseer. I've never been good at calculating probabilities, but the Starks seem to have beaten all the odds here :).

[Black Crow]

Christmas Greetings from the Heresy channel, and at Brashcandy’s request a brief summary of where we Heretics think we might be heading in regards to what’s going on beyond the Game of Thrones and why the Starks are different.

The usual caveats need to made that as with this thread, it’s a work in progress and we argue, sometimes quite passionately over ideas and interpretations.

Essentially, however, current thinking is that the Wall may be much older than it appears and instead of being built after the Long Night, it isn’t a defensive structure at all, but a magical hinge, delineating the boundary of the realm of Ice, a Faerie realm, and as such has always been there, which is why notwithstanding the vague legend of its being raised by Bran the Builder, we strongly suspect its always been there.

That’s partly background, but relevant to continued thinking on GRRM’s remarks that: “The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” Some of us think the reference to the Sidhe is a significant one, and that there are many parallels between Faerie folklore and some of the strange stuff going on beyond the Wall, including the story of Bael the Bard as told by Ygritte in CoK Jon 6:

The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael’s head, but never could take him, and the taste o’ failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o’ that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand… singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’

Now as it happened winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished… and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.

…Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign of Bael or this maid. For most of a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o’ Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child’s cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast… They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle… Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is – you have Bael’s blood in you.

Now compare this with the Scottish ballad of Tam Lin: The woods of Carterhaugh [in the Scottish borders] are guarded by Tam Lin, who demands payment of all maidens who pass through, of their virginity. A maiden named Janet travels to Carterhaugh and picks a rose, causing Tam Lin to appear. He questions her presence, to which she relies that Carterhaugh belongs to her father. Nevertheless the inevitable happens and she returns home pregnant, much to the concern of the household. She states that her lover is elfin, and then returns to Carterhaugh, once again encountering Tam Lin. He reveals he is not elfin, but a mortal captured by the queen of Faerie, and that he may be sacrificied to hell as part of the faerie tithe. He then details how she can save him, if she will undergo a trial on Halloween night. She must pull him from his horse as the Sidhe go trooping over Carter Bar, and hold onto him as he is transformed into various beasts, and when he regains his own naked shape she must cover him with her green mantle and he will be free. This she succeeds in doing to the annoyance of the Queen of Faerie, but as they have played it by the rules they are free to depart.

The ballad itself can be found at:

http://tam-lin.org/front.html

Obviously enough the stories of Bael and Tam Lin are not the same and differ in significant details, but the Rose and the Child are common to both (the hint of warging is intriguing too) and may be a strong pointer to a Sidhe or Faerie connection.

Why there should be this connection is unclear, but we think that together with the requirement there should be a Stark in Winterfell, it may be something to do with the Last Hero and the interface between the realms of Men and of Faerie (or Ice)

You’ll appreciate that its not easy to condense 30-odd threads of discussion into a single post, but it may give you the odd idea. Sansa certainly appears trembling on the brink of the Faerie realm in that scene in the garden of the Eyrie, but if it intrigues you do come and visit.

[brashcandy]

Black Crow, many thanks for giving us this insight :) We're currently finishing up a Beauty and the Beast project and there are some interesting parallels with the Tam Lin legend and the story of Bael the Bard. I'm going to return later to read what you've written more closely, but this should provide us with some fascinating food for thought.

[Kittykatknits]

Black Crow, thank you for that summary. I've been pondering quite a bit why there needs to be a Stark in WF and my mind has now been launched in a new direction. I'm still putting some of this together in my head but I know I'll be following up on it.

[Kittykatknits]

Hey all, there have been some posts and discussions I've seen in other threads that have led me to think it may be time for us to explore particular themes as it relates to the female characters within ASOIAF. Up to this point, we've done some great analysis on marriage, the power of the erotic, sisterhood, and other issues as shown through Sansa's story arc.

I'd like to expand the discussion as it relates to these themes by looking not just at Sansa or other major characters but even the minor ones, such as Alys Karstark, Lollys, Amerei Frey, Fat Walda, and others. I think there would be value in taking such a comprehensive approach and by doing so, look in to how the female characters are presented in their situations, how readers react, and how we understand and relate to them as modern men and women.

If there is any interest in this, I'll put together a broader post about it after Christmas with a bit more of an outline and some of my thoughts in order to get the discussion going. Let me know!

And to the most amazing posters on those board, the reason I come back to this place - Merry Christmas to each of you. And if you happen to not celebrate, I hope you are enjoying this holiday season in a way that is meaningful and special to you.

[brashcandy]

And to the most amazing posters on those board, the reason I come back to this place - Merry Christmas to each of you. And if you happen to not celebrate, I hope you are enjoying this holiday season in a way that is meaningful and special to you.

Thank you Kittykat :) And Happy Holidays as well to all the wonderful PtP posters and lurkers, those who check in periodically and those who make this an everyday stop. I'm excited for the new year and continuing the great discussions we've had here. Much love. xx

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Hey all, there have been some posts and discussions I've seen in other threads that have led me to think it may be time for us to explore particular themes as it relates to the female characters within ASOIAF. Up to this point, we've done some great analysis on marriage, the power of the erotic, sisterhood, and other issues as shown through Sansa's story arc.

I'd like to expand the discussion as it relates to these themes by looking not just at Sansa or other major characters but even the minor ones, such as Alys Karstark, Lollys, Amerei Frey, Fat Walda, and others. I think there would be value in taking such a comprehensive approach and by doing so, look in to how the female characters are presented in their situations, how readers react, and how we understand and relate to them as modern men and women.

If there is any interest in this, I'll put together a broader post about it after Christmas with a bit more of an outline and some of my thoughts in order to get the discussion going. Let me know!

And to the most amazing posters on those board, the reason I come back to this place - Merry Christmas to each of you. And if you happen to not celebrate, I hope you are enjoying this holiday season in a way that is meaningful and special to you.

Seems interesting.

Happy Holidays everyone (which ever one you may celebrate)!

[Candor]

Small thought (I haven't read back through the pages so, hopefully, I am not repeating someone else too much). Could the Stark's innate abilities correlate in any way to the different races we know the humans in the novels are comprised of (First Men vs. Andals)? Because if you compare their family to one such as the Arryn family, the mystical is far, far stronger in theirs.

Happy holidays, all.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

The other day I took a look at the thread, and I saw someone say that Martin hates Sansa. To me seemed quite the opposite, but as I do not want to be totalitarian, I asked my sister her opinion.

She looked at me, smiled and said-Noooó, she's his spoiled child, his darling, his little bird.