From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVI

[bgona]

About Jon as King of Winter (what that means? that he truly will died when spring and summer will come?)

I don´t see Sansa + Jon (I can be wrong).

About the 3 heads of a Dragon: people believes that Aegon will die soon or that he is a fake Targaryan. I am not sure about him, but something is true: there are 3 dragons and they are needed 3 Targaryan.

[Old-Growth]

Jajajaja I was going to add just that one!!

Well I hope you like it. It is becoming one of my favorite songs from that period.

[bgona]

About singing: again at the Bear and the Maiden song the final part the maiden sang and after that she decides to go with the bear.

I see there a connection sex+song+love. Tysha sang to Tyrion. Penny mother used to sang to her (IIRC). Not only sex+song but it is also connected with love. Sansa didn´t want sex with Marilion (didn´t want song for him, but because truly for her Marillion wasn´t somebody to song for, to love him). All the people that reject her songs are not worthy of her love, if this connection is right.

Old Growth I do.

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I´m rereading now Les Miserables and I am having a lot of ASOIAF feelings there. Hope I am not the only one.

Edit twice (once to answer Old Growth and the last one about the reread). I didn´t want to full a screen with my posts jajaja.

Edit thrice!!! I can´t find which has asked about how the wolves pack act. Here is a video from a Spanish naturist that we used to watch as children.

And

a video of David Attenborough.

[brashcandy]

ETA: And honestly, we still don't know 100% what "King of Winter" originally referred to, so the association between Sansa and winter-based Queenship might not refer to ruling in the sense we usually understand it. The term "Magnar", in the Old Tongue of the First Men, seems to be translated as either lord or, possibly, king (Jon translates it as "lord", but according to the Citadel there's a House on Skagos called House Magnar of Kinghouse, and Styr's status among the Thenns seemed more kingly than lordly). It's entirely possible that in the Old Tongue lordship or kingship had some additional connotations that were lost during the switch to the Common Tongue, and the "King of Winter" aspect of House Stark might have had less to do with them literally ruling a place and instead had more to do with them having mastery over some winter-based power (for example, "King of Winter" might have referred to certain ice-based magical abilities found in the House of Stark, like Brandon the Builder's apparent ability to somehow create a giant wall out of ice). In that sense, we could have multiple Kings and Queens of Winter, but only one King/Queen in the North.

Yeah, this is a salient point. I don't think it's necessarily pointing to a traditional style of ruling either, and this actually fits the developing pattern in Sansa's arc up to this point. She's doesn't hold ambitions towards power, and even in the conversation with Cersei where she imagined becoming a queen, it was centred on making people love her, not in holding absolute dominion over them. I think this is where perhaps we're seeing a split between the regular game style politics that dominated in KL and which Littlefinger represents, and the more elemental powers associated with the old gods and the song of ice and fire. Of course, LF believes that his influence will hold sway in Sansa's life, but we've been given enough hints to seriously doubt this.

[Le Cygne]

Going la la la at the Jon/Sansa talk, too. Besides, she's taken. Dover Beach! And I was afraid to talk about Romeo and Juliet. I love this forum over the holidays. :)

I have night's cloak to hide me from their eyes...

[ArabellaVidal]

Happy New Year to all on my favourite thread!

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I wonder if Sansa will play a part in Jon's resurrection. Now, that he is Ghost Jon (probably), I get a feeling he'll make his way down to the Stark without a wolf. It helps that she even has taken a persona of a bastard. I'm not sure how, but I would think she will be the one to realize Jon is in Ghost. Once Mel knows that, he can be brought back for real unlike Beric, Drogo, Cat, or any other character who has died.

Also, Happy New Year everyone!

[straits]

I wonder if Sansa will play a part in Jon's resurrection. Now, that he is Ghost Jon (probably), I get a feeling he'll make his way down to the Stark without a wolf. It helps that she even has taken a persona of a bastard. I'm not sure how, but I would think she will be the one to realize Jon is in Ghost. Once Mel knows that, he can be brought back for real unlike Beric, Drogo, Cat, or any other character who has died.

Also, Happy New Year everyone!

Really? How would she possibly be involved with Jon now? I know it sounds simplistic, but distance, the Eyrie, the Neck, and the battlefields that is the North will prevent Sansa from getting there any time soon.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I wonder if Sansa will play a part in Jon's resurrection. Now, that he is Ghost Jon (probably), I get a feeling he'll make his way down to the Stark without a wolf. It helps that she even has taken a persona of a bastard. I'm not sure how, but I would think she will be the one to realize Jon is in Ghost. Once Mel knows that, he can be brought back for real unlike Beric, Drogo, Cat, or any other character who has died.

Also, Happy New Year everyone!

Happy (Gregorian) New Year to one and all! May the new year bring blessings (and more great posts).

Bronn, that's an interesting thought on Jon going to Sansa in Ghost form, because remember when she heard the wind howling when coming down from the Eyrie and thought "a ghost wolf, big as mountains?" And later on that same journey, Myranda Royce mentions the new Lord Commander of the Wall, and Sansa blurts, "Jon Snow." So there may be something to this - in any event, I see it as part of a (non-romantic!) connection that is building between Jon and Sansa, as discussed, a working partnership as Sovereigns of Winter figures (rather than actual temporal rulers).

The one thing I wonder is, if Ghost Jon has the time to get to Sansa in the Vale, Corpse Jon had better be very well-preserved or he'll be resurrected looking and smelling rather bad. He probably wouldn't inspire much hero worship as Lady Stoneheart Mark II. Perhaps Ghost Jon will start out for the Vale, Mel will get to Corpse Jon in time to resurrect him in recognizable human form, and Ghost will continue on his journey to the Vale and meet with Sansa there (and maybe have a Littlefinger Snack while he's at it. Yum!).

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Happy (Gregorian) New Year to one and all! May the new year bring blessings (and more great posts).

Bronn, that's an interesting thought on Jon going to Sansa in Ghost form, because remember when she heard the wind howling when coming down from the Eyrie and thought "a ghost wolf, big as mountains?" And later on that same journey, Myranda Royce mentions the new Lord Commander of the Wall, and Sansa blurts, "Jon Snow." So there may be something to this - in any event, I see it as part of a (non-romantic!) connection that is building between Jon and Sansa, as discussed, a working partnership as Sovereigns of Winter figures (rather than actual temporal rulers).

The one thing I wonder is, if Ghost Jon has the time to get to Sansa in the Vale, Corpse Jon had better be very well-preserved or he'll be resurrected looking and smelling rather bad. He probably wouldn't inspire much hero worship as Lady Stoneheart Mark II. Perhaps Ghost Jon will start out for the Vale, Mel will get to Corpse Jon in time to resurrect him in recognizable human form, and Ghost will continue on his journey to the Vale and meet with Sansa there (and maybe have a Littlefinger Snack while he's at it. Yum!).

Wouldn't the cold preserve him?

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I wonder how cold it would have to be to preserve him for, let's say a few months? In cryonics, dead people hoping to eventually be (scientifically) resurrected are preserved in liquid nitrogen...but they are assuming they'll be dead for hundreds or thousands of years. They could store Corpse Jon in an ice cell and freeze him like a steak and hopefully that would do for a few months to a year. (This being fantasy fiction, I suppose temps that could freeze a steak or a roast could freeze a Jon in a state of preservation before Mel kisses him with fire. I can't quibble with technical accuracy in a universe with dragons! :) )

More about cryonics here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics

[brashcandy]

I wonder if Sansa will play a part in Jon's resurrection. Now, that he is Ghost Jon (probably), I get a feeling he'll make his way down to the Stark without a wolf. It helps that she even has taken a persona of a bastard. I'm not sure how, but I would think she will be the one to realize Jon is in Ghost. Once Mel knows that, he can be brought back for real unlike Beric, Drogo, Cat, or any other character who has died.

Really? How would she possibly be involved with Jon now? I know it sounds simplistic, but distance, the Eyrie, the Neck, and the battlefields that is the North will prevent Sansa from getting there any time soon.

There is the slight possibility that the "ghost wolf" Sansa heard in her final chapter of AFFC was a reference to Jon's death and therefore we could argue that she's already been able to sense that he's inhabited Ghost. I agree that the logistics involved (along with other obstacles) don't bode well for them having a physical reunion very soon, but there could still be a psychic link established which helps to aid in said resurrection. The memory Arya has of them descending into the crypts might be relevant here too. At the time Sansa is terrified because of what Old Nan has told her about spiders and rats as big as dogs living down there. Robb tells her that there are worst things to be afraid of down there, and when Jon pulls his ghost trick, Sansa runs shrieking towards towards the stairs. Yet, I wonder if ths isn't meant to be deliberately misleading. Not only has experience taught Sansa that there are indeed worst things to be afraid of than scary stories, but this time her descent down the mountain (unlike the one in the crypts) highlights her conquering her fears, and being the one to calm "the baby" aka Sweetrobin. Her recognition of the ghost sound also doesn't scare her but seems to symbolize her own strength in that moment.

[brashcandy]

FWIW, I don't think Mel will be in any way part of Jon's resurrection, unless she's necessary as a sacrifice :devil:

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Really? How would she possibly be involved with Jon now? I know it sounds simplistic, but distance, the Eyrie, the Neck, and the battlefields that is the North will prevent Sansa from getting there any time soon.

\

Sorry. Didn't see your post. Actually, I think it will be the other way. I think Mel, Selyse, Shireen, Val, Ghost Jon/Jon, and maybe some others will flee south since I think Bowen will happily hand them over to Ramsay. They get to Eastwatch, I bet they can get a ship. If they think Lysa is still in charge, the Vale might be their best shot since she hasn't declared against them yet.

I will accept this may be some sort of crackpotish.

[brashcandy]

And Happy New Year to all of you!

[Fire Eater]

Here's something I found in the that may serve as foreshadowing for Sansa:

From AFfC Prologue:

In the apple tree beside the water, a nightingale began to sing. It was a sweet sound, a welcome respite from the harsh screams and endless quorking of the ravens he had tended all day long.

The apple tree in Norse mythology is a symbol of rebirth and beauty, the apple is also known as the "forbidden fruit". The nightingale is a symbol of love, and the song of a nightingale is depicted as a sorrowful lament. Ravens are associated with, as well as BR and the Old Gods, death.

The nightingale may be Sansa, referred to as a "singing, little bird" by Sandor. It may foreshadow Sansa's rebirth as a strong, beautiful woman: Sansa STark went up the mountain but Alayne Stone is coming down, and Sansa giving Sandor a song as he lays dying (from taking a mortal wound defending her) during or after a battle, under the watchful eye of BR or Bran, or in winter.

[Old-Growth]

Dover Beach! And I was afraid to talk about Romeo and Juliet. I love this forum over the holidays. :)

It's not just the holidays: this here be a sophisticated thread. So why not allusions to Shakespeare?

[ArabellaVidal]

I wonder how cold it would have to be to preserve him for, let's say a few months? In cryonics, dead people hoping to eventually be (scientifically) resurrected are preserved in liquid nitrogen...but they are assuming they'll be dead for hundreds or thousands of years. They could store Corpse Jon in an ice cell and freeze him like a steak and hopefully that would do for a few months to a year. (This being fantasy fiction, I suppose temps that could freeze a steak or a roast could freeze a Jon in a state of preservation before Mel kisses him with fire. I can't quibble with technical accuracy in a universe with dragons! :) )

More about cryonics here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics

Jon has already somewhat successfully preserved corpses in those cells. And since the Wall is also a magical structure than a mere physical barrier, the preservation of Jon's body is assured.

[straits]

\

Sorry. Didn't see your post. Actually, I think it will be the other way. I think Mel, Selyse, Shireen, Val, Ghost Jon/Jon, and maybe some others will flee south since I think Bowen will happily hand them over to Ramsay. They get to Eastwatch, I bet they can get a ship. If they think Lysa is still in charge, the Vale might be their best shot since she hasn't declared against them yet.

I will accept this may be some sort of crackpotish.

But does this assume that Stannis lost the battle? Or that the wildlings, along with Tormund (and his warriors) who is Val's friend, would allow Bowen to do anything after killing Jon? Mel going south is not logical since she knows and has repeatedly stated in her PoVs that her fight is here, at the Wall. And Val fleeing south is even weirder - she's a wildling who had an interest in Jon. This would be forcing two different ends of a puzzle together.

edit: not to mention that there is no way Jon would quit fighting the Others after putting in so much effort, in life or death

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1 But does this assume that Stannis lost the battle? 2 Or that the wildlings, along with Tormund (and his warriors) who is Val's friend, would allow Bowen to do anything after killing Jon? 3 Mel going south is not logical since she knows and has repeatedly stated in her PoVs that her fight is here, at the Wall. And Val fleeing south is even weirder - she's a wildling who had an interest in Jon. This would be forcing two different ends of a puzzle together.

edit: not to mention that there is no way Jon would quit fighting the Others after putting in so much effort, in life or death

1. No. It simply assumes Bowen doesn't know otherwise.

2. I think Bowen's actions were the results of a plan that was forced into action rather than a moment of passion. In that case, a plan for the wildlings is already in place. I could be wrong, and Bowen could be disappointing as an antagonist as well as a person and Night's Watchmen.

3. As for Mel and Val, I certainly don't think they would want to leave, but there is little choice when someone wants to hand you over to a psychopath who favors flaying.

Like I said, it is a bit crackpotish. Maybe more than a bit crackpotish.