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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVI

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Sansa certainly appears trembling on the brink of the Faerie realm in that scene in the garden of the Eyrie, but if it intrigues you do come and visit.

In the North there is a wood called the "Enchanted Forest"

(castiza version) It's behind the Wall.

I don´t know why, but, when I look at the map, strange things happen to me.

I was always find myself putting to Sansa there.

Sansa, the only one of the Stark that has lost connection with her animal,

it seems more real, human. However, has a history that seems somehow recreate fairy tales: Cinderella, Little Red Riding Hood, Snow White. etc. I wonder what she thinks and does when GRRM don´t takes her hand and shows us. I see a girl , just like my friends or me.

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Black Crow, thank you for that essay! And Kitty, that sounds like a very good idea and it would be great to start the year with that.

And everyone, just wanted to wish you all a very merry christmas and wonderful holidays. the year in this thread has been amazing. learned so much of my favorite character, and it was really cool to have Sansa be the first person in a book that had me going to forums. The FP2P threads have always been very mature and everyone is really nice and i just wanted to thank you for sharing your thoughts with me and helping me understand Sansa Stark better :)

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The line…

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

… has always sounded familiar to Milady since she first read it, because it’s similar to two others she read. The first is a line from a not so known book she once read:

There will always be a Folliatt in Nasse House.

Not that this has any sort of connection to ASOIAF, but this line from a detective novel by Agatha Christie is the key to resolving the mystery, like the one by Martin probably is as well. This line is often repeated by a drunk old man who’s trying to tell the private eye that the murderer is the man who’s now the new master of Nasse House, who hides behind a fake name but is really a Folliatt, the last male member of the family who owned the manor for ages before they lost it.

There is also a similar line elsewhere. Being a Catholic-turned-Old Gods worshipper atheist, I wonder if it’s possible for GRRM to have drawn inspiration for either the line or the reason why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell from biblical sources. In the Old Testament, we have the God of Israel stating:

There will always be a descendant of David sitting on the throne here in Jerusalem.

(Jeremiah 17:25)

This was a promise made on condition that the descendants of the Israelite monarch stick to a pact with God, who had previously asked the king to build him a temple in Jerusalem, a place He had chosen himself, and that would become the spiritual centre of the new nation for millennia. Before this, the god of the Hebrews had no home, only a luxurious tent where the Arc of the Covenant was kept, but once his people conquered the land of Canaan and created a new kingdom, he wanted a place where he could dwell and look over his people. David accepted that request, but it would be his son Solomon who’d build the temple in the site God had told his sire. For as long as the people of Israel behaved in accordance with the rules set in the pact, the kingdom prospered, yet when they deviated from the covenant, they were invaded by the Babylonians, the Temple was razed to the ground and the people forced into exile and slavery. Some descendants of David survived, and eventually the Israelites returned to their land, rebuilt their temple, but the Davidic line was never reinstated on the throne. The second part of the pact included the promise of a Messiah from the bloodline of David who’d sit on that throne and bring permanent prosperity to the kingdom, and the Christians interpret that the promise was fulfilled in Jesus, who was a descendant of David on both sides, and is now reigning from Heaven, thus being the eternal king of the bloodline of David.

True, this is very different from ASOIAF and these are broad coincidences, but it made me wonder if a pact between the original Brandon Stark and those powerful entities/beings is the reason why a Stark has to sit permanently on the direwolf throne in Winterfell, as the legitimate king of Israel should always be of the blood of David and reside in Jerusalem (there was a schism, but the king in Jerusalem continued to be of the Davidic bloodline) , for his presence was necessary to ensure the faith of the people and the continuity of the Temple, where the Arc of the Covenant was in a very secret place. Like the Temple, Winterfell is built on a place where supernatural forces must be strong, and I doubt Brandon Stark chose that site only for the hot springs but he was probably told where to build it and why; and like the Temple, it’s obvious that the castle has some mysterious thing hidden in the crypts which must be very powerful. No king of the line of David or heretic king in Jerusalem, and the kingdom was as good as gone to Hell. The biblical story tells that the Temple of Jerusalem and the city itself were rebuilt by a descendant of David after the return from captivity, which also reminds me of little Jojen’s prophesy that the wolves would return to Winterfell. The bad part is that the Second Temple lasted until the Romans repeated the history and destroyed it again after the death of Yehoshua bar Yosef, a.k.a. Jesus, and his half-brothers, the supposedly last males of the bloodline of David, whom the Israelite people had rejected as spiritual leader…

And last, Milady wishes a Merry Christmas to all the sers and ladies in this community, and thank you all for the pleasure it has been to learn so much in these threads.

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Small thought (I haven't read back through the pages so, hopefully, I am not repeating someone else too much). Could the Stark's innate abilities correlate in any way to the different races we know the humans in the novels are comprised of (First Men vs. Andals)? Because if you compare their family to one such as the Arryn family, the mystical is far, far stronger in theirs.

Happy holidays, all.

The line…

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

… has always sounded familiar to Milady since she first read it, because it’s similar to two others she read. The first is a line from a not so known book she once read:

There will always be a Folliatt in Nasse House.

Not that this has any sort of connection to ASOIAF, but this line from a detective novel by Agatha Christie is the key to resolving the mystery, like the one by Martin probably is as well. This line is often repeated by a drunk old man who’s trying to tell the private eye that the murderer is the man who’s now the new master of Nasse House, who hides behind a fake name but is really a Folliatt, the last male member of the family who owned the manor for ages before they lost it.

There is also a similar line elsewhere. Being a Catholic-turned-Old Gods worshipper atheist, I wonder if it’s possible for GRRM to have drawn inspiration for either the line or the reason why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell from biblical sources. In the Old Testament, we have the God of Israel stating:

There will always be a descendant of David sitting on the throne here in Jerusalem.

(Jeremiah 17:25)

<snip for length>

I spent some time thinking about Black Crow's write up from yesterday and both of you are helping me quite a bit in developing my thoughts about the reason for a Stark in WF. The Others have been compared to the sidhe, an otherwordly race and we have the connection between the Bael story in WF and Tam Lin. We can draw comparisons between these and the previous B&B discussion. But, what also struck me is the common elements of agreements and bargains made and kept.

We know the Starks have the blood of the first men in them. I know it has been theororized elsewhere that they may also have some CotF as well, which would account for some of their abilities. There is a connection between them and I wonder if that connection is somehow maintained via the wierwoods. It's Bran's attempts to talk to Theon and Ned that has me wondering this and I'm guessing we will see even more of it in Winds.

So, to go on to Milady's two examples. The first one is a murder mystery, an attempt to usurp ownership of Nasse House and hiding behind a fake name to do so. As soon as I read that, I thought of the Boltons and their use of a fake name with Arya to make it happen. Then, there is the line from the bible. Again, it's about agreements and pacts made, or we could even call it keeping the faith. Milady, your thoughts on Brandon and the existence of a pact are the exact same ones I was having as I first read your post.

The godswood, the crypts, and so on, there is quite a bit attached to WF that it has an almost mystical feel to it. This isn't a random plot of land, it's special for a reason. If there is a pact made, I now wonder if this is the location of that agreement. Similar to how the isle of faces is the home of the pact between the first men and the andals (do I have my history right here?). Is the Stark presence their way of acknowledging the pact and that they still hold true to agreements made?

If there is something to all this, to go back to what I had said earlier about the magical capabilities of the Stark kids. We see the abilities mainifesting within them again, after being dormant for so long. From the above, I can't help but think this adds to the need for the Starks to reclaim their identities and return home again. And if I want to get really dramatic, I could even say the clock is ticking and winter is here. :)

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Very intriguing, Milady. I like how your examples capture both the religious and potentially darker forces at work in the Stark in Winterfell mystery.

You’ll appreciate that its not easy to condense 30-odd threads of discussion into a single post, but it may give you the odd idea. Sansa certainly appears trembling on the brink of the Faerie realm in that scene in the garden of the Eyrie, but if it intrigues you do come and visit.

That snow castle scene does represent one of the most beautiful and mysterious episodes in Sansa's chapters. She tastes the snow, doesn't remember falling to her knees, and then proceeds to build Winterfell. I like how you describe it as "trembling on the brink of the Faerie realm" which reflects the very otherworldly quality of that moment. We've had a lot of discussion on the symbolic importance of this scene, with interpretations ranging from Sansa's future role in rebuilding her home, the foreshadowing of her slaying the giant in a castle of snow, or merely an evocative passage meant to highlight Sansa's enduring connection to the North and her roots. The latter one underscores the power of memory and familial bonds, and when she challenges Littlefinger on why he lied to her, she thinks of herself as being stronger within the walls of Winterfell. As much as Winterfell has at this point been reduced to ruins and ashes, Sansa draws comfort and confidence from being quite literally, the Stark in Winterfell, as she builds up the walls around her and defeats the invading giant.

The whole business with Bael the Bard is also interesting when applied to Sansa's story. We have her association with Petyr (Bael)ish, and the fact that he's "stolen" her away from her family - he likely got Ned killed, and we learn in ADWD that he wanted to marry Sansa after her father's death. Instead of being a lover of songs, he tries to disillusion her about their value, and get her to accept a much more perverse world view. The connection between singers/"Baels" with Stark daughters is not a very happy one. We have Lyanna's fate with Rhaegar, and now the frankly degenerate inversion that LF represents.

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Brash:

That is a nice point about the inversion represented by Lord Baelish as the "un-bard" vis-a-vis Bael the Bard. That could be a more subtle connection to go with the more obvious one of Prince Rhaegar the Bard to Lady Lyanna Stark. Also reinforcing Petyr's un-bardishness is his framing of the singer Marillion for the murder of Aunt Lysa. And I can't resist adding Tyrion seeing to it that Symond the singer ended up in a bowl of brown. (To be sure, Tyrion, in his non-beastly mode, has a song in his heart---the one that Tysha used to sing.)

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That is a nice point about the inversion represented by Lord Baelish as the "un-bard" vis-a-vis Bael the Bard. That could be a more subtle connection to go with the more obvious one of Prince Rhaegar the Bard to Lady Lyanna Stark.

And so do we have yet another link between Sansa and Jon? We saw her able to identify with him now that she's a bastard, and both are connected to "Baels" who are trickster figures. I don't want to over emphasise the importance of LF's name, but regardless, his "life is not a song" message features as one of the central metaphors in her development. If Jon is on track to find meaning in this history and "reawakens" to his true identity, perhaps Sansa is on a similar trajectory, but in order to reawaken, she must reject what Littlefinger represents.

Hmmm, forgive me dear posters if this makes absolutely no sense. :)

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I will be more impressed in the matter of Jon awakening to his true identity if he picks up a high harp and starts singing sad songs on the death of kings :) He should have had Mance teach him. And yes that is an allusion to Richard II.

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This is a poetical and musical illustration of the beastly side of Tyrion.

It is the song Der Zwerg by Franz Schubert on a poem by the minor 19th century German poet Matthaeus Casimir von Collin, who would probably be completely forgotten today were it not for Schubert's songs based on his poems. The You Tube links that bgona kindly dug up for me when I mentioned this before, do not include both the German text together with an English translation, so I will give that here and repeat the links into You Tube. Peruse the text, listen to a couple of the You Tube entries and decide for yourself whether the poem and music capture the side of Tyrion we see in the killing of Shae and to some extent in his encounters in Essos. Is there perhaps some suggestion at the end of his fate?

The poem with translation between stanzas:

Im trüben Licht verschwinden schon die Berge,

Es schwebt das Schiff auf glatten Meereswogen,

Worauf die Königin mit ihrem Zwerge.

In the dimming light the mountains fade,

The boat hovers on the smooth sea waves,

Upon which is the Queen with her dwarf

Sie schaut empor zum hochgewölbten Bogen,

Hinauf zur lichtdurchwirkten blauen Ferne,

Die mit der Milch des Himmels blass durchzogen.

She looks up to the high arch of the sky,

Up there to the bespangled blue afar,

Faintly crossed by the Milky Way.

"Nie, nie habt ihr mir gelogen noch, ihr Sterne," 

So ruft sie aus, "bald werd ich nun entschwinden, 

Ihr sagt es mir, doch sterb ich wahrlich gerne."

"Never, never, have you lied to me, you stars,"

So she speaks out, "now I shall be no more,

You tell me so, willingly will I die."

Da tritt der Zwerg zur Königin, mag binden

Um ihren Hals die Schnur von roter Seide,

Und weint, als wollt' er schnell vor Gram erblinden.

The dwarf strides to the Queen, begins to tie

around her neck a red silk ribbon,

And weeps, as tho' he would quickly go blind with grief.

Er spricht: "Du selbst bist schuld an diesem Leide,

Weil um den König du mich hast verlassen;

Jetzt weckt dein Sterben einzig mir noch Freude.

He says: "You yourself are to blame for this sorrow,

Because you have left me for the the King;

Now only your death remaina my only pleasure.

Zwar werd ich ewiglich mich selber hassen,

Der dir mit dieser Hand den Tod gegeben,

Doch musst zum frühen Grab du nun erblassen."

Though I will hate my self forever,

I will give you death with these hands,

Thus must you to an early grave go palely.

Sie legt die Hand aufs Herz voll jungem Leben,

Und aus dem Aug die schweren Tränen rinnen,

Das sie zum Himmel betend will erheben.

She lays hand on heart so full of young life,

And from her eyes the heavy tears run,

That she would have rise to heaven.

"Mögst du nicht Schmerz durch meinen Tod gewinnen!"

Sie sagt's; da küsst der Zwerg die bleichen Wangen,

Drauf alsobald vergehen ihr die Sinnen.

"May you gain no grief from my death!"

She says; the dwarf kisses her pale cheek,

Thereupon all sensation leaves her.

Der Zwerg schaut an die Frau vom Tod befangen,

Er senkt sie tief ins Meer mit eignen Händen.

Ihm brennt nach ihr das Herz so voll Verlangen.

An keiner Küste wird er je mehr landen.

The dwarf gazes on the woman caught by death,

He lowers her deep in the sea with his own hands.

His heart burns within him so full of longing.

He will never land on any coast again.

Well, Shae would never have willing accepted death at Tyrion's hands, and it is Lord Tywin not the King for whom she ditches him, but murder in a jealous rage among other feelings is demonstrably within Tyrion's capabilities. And Shae wanted to be a Lady at least, even if she was no Queen. So there is a partial fit to our violent dwarf. One can imagine, however, Tyrion's reaction if the marriage to Sansa is annulled so that Sansa can wed Aegon. Maybe we might get something a bit closer to the above scenario. Or perhaps by some weird turn of events Tyrion might strangle Cersei and dump her body in Blackwater bay: he is her brother not her dwarf and Cersei truely would deny every sentiment our Queen in the poem affirms but still.....

[More links to You Tube forthcoming tomorrow.]

Ian Bostridge, Tenor

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VfNfUNQCNb4

This one has subtitles in Spanish

Christa Ludwig, Mezzo-soprano

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xKVqcg5gfeg

Music only for this one

Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Baritone

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yXfZt94Gfjs (1948)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b5HgGIv0FuM (live, 1957)

Music only for this one, but it's The Man. The second performance is more dramatic than the first, maybe a bit too much so. It is closer to Fischer-Dieskau at the peak of his career.

Eva Budde, Soprano

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y6lmWH2LF64

A new one to me, but she is good

Waltraud Meier, Soprano

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xMHXTsaEva8

I did another search of You Tube and I count at least forty performances of this song. I will post seven links, as seven is sacred to the new gods, and not inflict any more on you. I just now need to figure out which one will be a good choice for number seven.

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brash, you made me depressed. Largely because the Jon/Sansa connection you pointed out makes me think he is dead (as a human) for good.

Running with the Jon/Sansa connection, let's look at his major "lesson" he learns during ADWD. "Kill the boy" or something like that. He fails spectacularly. One of his biggest mistakes is to send his friends to the other castles. He left himself without support. It's killing the boy by cutting out distractions like friendship and fun that lead to a more literal take on it.

Sansa has been learning that "life is not a song" but adapting better. She hasn't become cynical like Sandor or sociopathic like Littlefinger. Or in short, she took the lesson as a way to mature rather than go to extreme.

I think Arya is little different. I think her Arc and character survival/well-being will be based on learning the Faceless Men's lessons. Death is not a good or bad thing. When it is delivered, it should be in service to something, not your personal desire/vengeance.

Even Bran's could be. He lost the ability to walk, but can fly. Not just warging birds, but he can move past his physical limitations and still become the hero he always dreamed about if not in the same manner.

Like Sansa, I think Arya and Bran are on their way to learn their lessons in healthy. I don't think any of the three have completely learned their "lesson" though and it's possible they could apply it poorly like Jon (or Sandor or Littlefinger who learned Sansa's earlier in their lived). But I see them succeeding.

The Stark kids (at least the POV, though probably Robb and Rickon too) have a lesson they must learn. Failure leads to a bad end.

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<snipped>

We know the Starks have the blood of the first men in them. I know it has been theororized elsewhere that they may also have some CotF as well, which would account for some of their abilities.

The godswood, the crypts, and so on, there is quite a bit attached to WF that it has an almost mystical feel to it. This isn't a random plot of land, it's special for a reason. If there is a pact made, I now wonder if this is the location of that agreement. Similar to how the isle of faces is the home of the pact between the first men and the andals (do I have my history right here?). Is the Stark presence their way of acknowledging the pact and that they still hold true to agreements made?

If there is something to all this, to go back to what I had said earlier about the magical capabilities of the Stark kids. We see the abilities mainifesting within them again, after being dormant for so long. From the above, I can't help but think this adds to the need for the Starks to reclaim their identities and return home again. And if I want to get really dramatic, I could even say the clock is ticking and winter is here. :)

WF as a power base, I like that idea. [expanded on below]

That snow castle scene does represent one of the most beautiful and mysterious episodes in Sansa's chapters. She tastes the snow, doesn't remember falling to her knees, and then proceeds to build Winterfell. I like how you describe it as "trembling on the brink of the Faerie realm" which reflects the very otherworldly quality of that moment. We've had a lot of discussion on the symbolic importance of this scene, with interpretations ranging from Sansa's future role in rebuilding her home, the foreshadowing of her slaying the giant in a castle of snow, or merely an evocative passage meant to highlight Sansa's enduring connection to the North and her roots. The latter one underscores the power of memory and familial bonds, and when she challenges Littlefinger on why he lied to her, she thinks of herself as being stronger within the walls of Winterfell. As much as Winterfell has at this point been reduced to ruins and ashes, Sansa draws comfort and confidence from being quite literally, the Stark in Winterfell, as she builds up the walls around her and defeats the invading giant.

Your line, "Sansa draws comfort and confidence from being quite literally, the Stark in Winterfell, as she builds up the walls around her and defeats the invading giant." paints for me a very mystic sort of picture. Namely, a mental image of Sansa somehow calling upon the "power" of Winterfell to boost her own. I cannot come up qith the exact analogy I am hoping for, but perhaps you have watched/read similar things where the character summon power through spells/incantations/etc.

Perhaps one does not have to be in WF to have power, but I'd assume, rather like how Melisandre's powers increased when she came to the Wall, the Stark children would be more "potent" in their abilities in WF. After all if we look to Bran, who has had the most experiencces with using his powers, he was in WF for the bulk of the time, while his siblings scattered around Westeros. Coincidence?

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Forgot to add in response to Kittykatknits' post, that possibly, the Stark children/descendents/Starks in WF represent a sort of avatar for the power of whatever pact may have been made long ago, in WF?

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Forgot to add in response to Kittykatknits' post, that possibly, the Stark children/descendents/Starks in WF represent a sort of avatar for the power of whatever pact may have been made long ago, in WF?

I think so too. Rickon needs to get to WF ASAP.

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Perhaps one does not have to be in WF to have power, but I'd assume, rather like how Melisandre's powers increased when she came to the Wall, the Stark children would be more "potent" in their abilities in WF. After all if we look to Bran, who has had the most experiencces with using his powers, he was in WF for the bulk of the time, while his siblings scattered around Westeros. Coincidence?

We know that Lady was returned to WF in order to be buried. Is it possible that Sansa's warg skills are still able to manifest and that she can draw on the power of WF as you describe, because Lady maintains that connection to WF? So, even though she was killed, her body still gives Sansa a physical presence?

Forgot to add in response to Kittykatknits' post, that possibly, the Stark children/descendents/Starks in WF represent a sort of avatar for the power of whatever pact may have been made long ago, in WF?

I think so too. Rickon needs to get to WF ASAP.

Yes, I do think the Stark kids/descendents are avatars for that power. Their sigil is a direwolf, a mystical being, their words are very different from other Houses, they've long been strong supporters of the wall. And, possible idealization of the North but I can't help myself, we've gotten hints on how the Starks have acted as protectors over the people in the North before. Wylla Manderly's story comes to mind here.

And they need to get home!!!

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We know that Lady was returned to WF in order to be buried. Is it possible that Sansa's warg skills are still able to manifest and that she can draw on the power of WF as you describe, because Lady maintains that connection to WF? So, even though she was killed, her body still gives Sansa a physical presence?

Yes, I do think the Stark kids/descendents are avatars for that power. Their sigil is a direwolf, a mystical being, their words are very different from other Houses, they've long been strong supporters of the wall. And, possible idealization of the North but I can't help myself, we've gotten hints on how the Starks have acted as protectors over the people in the North before. Wylla Manderly's story comes to mind here.

And they need to get home!!!

Good touch with Lady, I think that would be viable given the close wolf/child connection. A pet theory of mine is that part of Lady (soul, etc) joined with Sansa upon her death, perhaps deepening the connection that Sansa can call upon.

May I offer a quote from Tyrion (no throwing of chamberpots, please)?

"We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance in our steads.”

I feel that quite a few of our modern characters are exemplifying this in that they are avatars of powers once alive, or almost as reincarnations / "second comings" of historical figures; e.g. Daenaerys has been compared to Aegon and his sisters; hte comparison of Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight to Sandor/Sansa that we have once made.. so why not WF and Stark descendants explicitly? :)

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Well, Shae would never have willing accepted death at Tyrion's hands, and it is Lord Tywin not the King for whom she ditches him, but murder in a jealous rage among other feelings is demonstrably within Tyrion's capabilities. And Shae wanted to be a Lady at least, even if she was no Queen. So there is a partial fit to our violent dwarf. One can imagine, however, Tyrion's reaction if the marriage to Sansa is annulled so that Sansa can wed Aegon. Maybe we might get something a bit closer to the above scenario. Or perhaps by some weird turn of events Tyrion might strangle Cersei and dump her body in Blackwater bay: he is her brother not her dwarf and Cersei truely would deny every sentiment our Queen in the poem affirms but still.....

Another lovely selection of music to listen to Old-Growth, thank you :) I do wonder what Tyrion's reaction would be to a Sansa/Aegon pairing. It would be fairly ironic given that Tyrion is the one who advised Aegon not to pursue Daenerys anymore.

I feel that quite a few of our modern characters are exemplifying this in that they are avatars of powers once alive, or almost as reincarnations / "second comings" of historical figures; e.g. Daenaerys has been compared to Aegon and his sisters; hte comparison of Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight to Sandor/Sansa that we have once made.. so why not WF and Stark descendants explicitly? :)

tze has a great post illustrating how Jon/Sansa/Arya act as the modern "second comings" of Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys. If only I could find it now....

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tze has a great post illustrating how Jon/Sansa/Arya act as the modern "second comings" of Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys. If only I could find it now....

Just off the top of my head I nod at that correlation. And by knowing the interrelations of Jon, Sansa, and Arya that may provide a window of insight into Aegon+Sisters

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Ok, I found it :) Here's the link to the full post, and I've provided a relevant excerpt below:

If anyone is meant as this generation's literary "repetition" of the three Targ siblings, I'd say it's Jon/Sansa/Arya. The incredibly close relationship between Robb and Jon (a trueborn and a bastard) seems like this generation's parallel to the supposedly incredibly close relationship between Aegon and Orys (a trueborn and a bastard). Sansa's personality seems the most like Rhaenys---both are/were known to love singers and poetry (and Rhaenys was always surrounded by men---Sansa inadvertently ends up constantly fending off the advances of men). Sansa is more heavily associated with "flying" than her sister Arya (Arya's the cat, Sansa's the bird), and Rhaenys supposedly loved flying more than Visenya did. Like Visenya, Arya fights with a sword.

And what's interesting to me is the way the two Stark sisters also seem to invert the examples of the Targ sisters (and such inversion is something we frequently see when history repeats itself in ASOIAF): Visenya was associated with the Vale and Rhaenys with Dorne, but with the Stark sisters that's switched up (Sansa's in the Vale and Arya named her direwolf for a Dornish Queen). Sansa's older than Arya, while Rhaenys was younger than Visenya. Jon's closer to Arya than to Sansa, while Aegon was closer to Rhaenys than to Visenya. Rumors said that Visenya was a sorceress, and rumors are spreading that Sansa is a sorceress.

FWIW, I think it's mentioned in the Land of Ice and Fire that Aegon spent much more time with Rhaenys than Visenya... at least at night.

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Ok, I found it :) Here's the link to the full post, and I've provided a relevant excerpt below:

Amazing analysis just from the except. Kudos to tze. I will have to go and read the whole thing now. The inversion aspect intrigues me. When I read through it I had the mental image of an hourglass. When one runs dry, you flip it over to begin again. When one life ends and another begins, there could be an inversion. #crackpot musings

FWIW, I think it's mentioned in the Land of Ice and Fire that Aegon spent much more time with Rhaenys than Visenya... at least at night.

Ha. So quite a bit of this action: :spank: .... though I suppose there's a fair subdivision of fans that ship Jon/Arya, so maybe...

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Ha. So quite a bit of this action: :spank: .... though I suppose there's a fair subdivision of fans that ship Jon/Arya, so maybe...

It gives life to the Jon/Sansa fans as well, I suppose :)

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