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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVI

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It gives life to the Jon/Sansa fans as well, I suppose :)

Is it wrong that I'd rather see Jon/Sansa than Tyrion/Sansa if forced to pick one? Not that I in any way want either....

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Is it wrong that I'd rather see Jon/Sansa than Tyrion/Sansa if forced to pick one? Not that I in any way want either....

No, I feel the same way. As much as I don't think Jon would look at either Sansa or Arya as romantic options, I'd rather Sansa and him any day over her remaining with Tyrion.

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Tze's post was great. I agree with her deconstruction of the notion that Dany is particularly like any of the Aegon+Sisters trio. Hrmmm. Now I've quite lost track of where I was headed. xD

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No, I feel the same way. As much as I don't think Jon would look at either Sansa or Arya as romantic options, I'd rather Sansa and him any day over her remaining with Tyrion.

In all honesty I'd rather see Sansa with almost anyone than Tyrion, with the exceptions of LF, Robert Strong, Ramsey Bolton (as the Brave Companions etc are dead, I have not included them. Or Jaime, as I doubt he's making it past the next book).

Edit: And also possibly Patchface.

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Is it wrong that I'd rather see Jon/Sansa than Tyrion/Sansa if forced to pick one? Not that I in any way want either....

In all honesty I'd rather see Sansa with almost anyone than Tyrion, with the exceptions of LF, Robert Strong, Ramsey Bolton (as the Brave Companions etc are dead, I have not included them. Or Jaime, as I doubt he's making it past the next book).

Edit: And also possibly Patchface.

Nope, not wrong at all. I don't like the idea of Sansa/Tyrion at all - not because Tyrion is an ugly dwarf, but because he's a Lannister and a symbol of Sansa's captivity and powerlessness. Besides, she doesn't want him. But aside from Ramsay Bolton (who I don't think is a serious candidate, and I hate the thought of Ramsay with anyone), I dislike Sansa/Littlefinger because ew. Not only is he creepy, he's responsible for the death of her father and the destruction of her family.

I ship Sansa/Happiness first and foremost, and hope that whoever she winds up with (if she's married and not alone) loves her for herself and not her claim to Winterfell.

Brash, thank you for linking to the excellent Tze post; Milady, as usual your post was brilliant - tying together a Stark in Winterfell and descendants of David in the Bible - that's amazing, and reading it the parallel is so obvious. Kittykat, Milady and others, thank you for articulating what I've been feeling about having a Stark in Winterfell; it seems to be a sacred trust and may well be linked to the original pact Brandon the Builder made.

I hope everyone who celebrates on the 25th had a happy holiday! (Still keeping my Christmas Catelyn icon until the New Year!)

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I guess what this discussion ultimately boils down to (leaving all the mystery and crackpotting aside) is whether or not Sansa is capable of being the Stark in Winterfell, and all things considered - literal and symbolic - I'd have to say yes. Right now, that's where the body of her wolf resides; she's gained and is gaining valuable political knowledge; she's shown to have a very strong connection to her home when she rebuilt it in snow, and Martin has been slowly highlighting her developing sexuality, perhaps preparing us for her being the one to carry on the Stark line in a few years. I know there's this idea among some readers that Sansa wouldn't be able to "wield the sword" when passing judgement, and that this somehow invalidates her as a viable candidate for leadership, but I think that's bullocks. Hopefully the next D&E book will illustrate the myriad ways in which women can swing the sword and show their authority.

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Nope, not wrong at all. I don't like the idea of Sansa/Tyrion at all - not because Tyrion is an ugly dwarf, but because he's a Lannister and a symbol of Sansa's captivity and powerlessness. Besides, she doesn't want him. But aside from Ramsay Bolton (who I don't think is a serious candidate, and I hate the thought of Ramsay with anyone), I dislike Sansa/Littlefinger because ew. Not only is he creepy, he's responsible for the death of her father and the destruction of her family.

I don't even entertain the possibility that Martin could be taking us in the direction where we would have to seriously consider Sansa/LF as an endgame, or a temporary "romantic" pairing in the text. It's truly beyondddd the limits of what I'm willing to accept in this series.

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Another lovely selection of music to listen to Old-Growth, thank you :) I do wonder what Tyrion's reaction would be to a Sansa/Aegon pairing. It would be fairly ironic given that Tyrion is the one who advised Aegon not to pursue Daenerys anymore.

You are welcome. I just note that the idea was an indirect wooing with Dany coming West. What effect the rumors of Dany's death may have on this remains to be seen. I think it is clear that Aegon and party (and never mind Mace and the Small Council) have no idea why Dany stayed in Meereen. Be that as it may, a betrothal to Sansa or Arianne starts to look more plausible, as Aegon et al need help now, not a number of turns of the moon later.

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I don't even entertain the possibility that Martin could be taking us in the direction where we would have to seriously consider Sansa/LF as an endgame, or a temporary "romantic" pairing in the text. It's truly beyondddd the limits of what I'm willing to accept in this series.

Well, you remember what I said in the LF analysis about this - vexing the fan base is probably just as valid for a writer as pleasing them. As long as there's a strong emotional reaction.

Ever read Emile Zola's "Germinal" ? An emotional punch in the gut, that one is.

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Well, you remember what I said in the LF analysis about this - vexing the fan base is probably just as valid for a writer as pleasing them. As long as there's a strong emotional reaction.

I could understand this if Littlefinger wasn't so intimately associated with all the destruction in Sansa's life. The resolution of her arc in the series will arguably be about defeating him, and achieving real independence and happiness. A "strong emotional reaction" is not enough to justify warping the development of the story and Sansa's characterisation up to this point.

Ever read Emile Zola's "Germinal" ? An emotional punch in the gut, that one is.

No, want to fill me in? :)

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Well, you remember what I said in the LF analysis about this - vexing the fan base is probably just as valid for a writer as pleasing them. As long as there's a strong emotional reaction.

Ever read Emile Zola's "Germinal" ? An emotional punch in the gut, that one is.

Well he has already done it twice (execution of Ned and the Red Wedding). Third times a charm?

Anyways, I hope Brash is correct.

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It's part if a long series by Zola. I read l'assomoire (bad spelling) and it too was mightily depressing.

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Omfg, what is Florina doing in this thread? Oh yeah...

I ship Sansa/Happiness first and foremost, and hope that whoever she winds up with (if she's married and not alone) loves her for herself and not her claim to Winterfell.

Because of that. I agree. I really dont ship Sansa with anything except Happiness. Because anything else seems like it would be really bad news for the poor thing.

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It's part if a long series by Zola. I read l'assomoire (bad spelling) and it too was mightily depressing.

It's L'Assommoir, your spelling is nearly perfect. I prefer Au bonheur des dames, it's less depressing than the others ^_^ . And now that I think of it, the main female character has some points in common with Sansa and I'm sure the feminists around here would have a lot of interesting things to say about this book.

A friend told me there was a BBC show based on it, it's called The Paradise.

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I thought it might be fruitful if we returned to this topic based on the recent discussion pertaining to the Stark in Winterfell and what Sansa's eventual role will be in the expected fight against the Others:

- Sansa as Queen of Winter - we had a really excellent discussion towards the end of Rethinking X and the beginning of Rethinking XI, where we looked at the Snow white imagery in Sansa's arc, the mythology associated with Persephone, and talked about the relevance of the "dark as ash" portion of Bran's dream in reference to the Hound. tze mentioned at this point the Hound's bloody cloak could represent a weirwood tree substitute for Sansa, and Elba highlighted the marriage symbolism.

Any new insights into these questions? And could Sansa and Sandor be meant as a fire and ice pairing in the text?

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Perhaps every major character (particularly the Starks) have their own fire and ice symbolism. But in the relationship between Sandor and Sansa, they both seem to have a fire association. Sansa is the warm flame that eases the chill in Sandor's heart so to speak. But he in turn acts as a blazing flame that burns away "impurities" of thought for Sansa. Such as lies.

But now it seems Sansa is the ice and Sandor, far away from her, is a warm candle burning in the dark. That is if he is indeed the brother on the Quiet Isle.

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Sansa as Queen of Winter bears weight symbolically. But practically speaking, the north would love to follow a classic warrior with a direwolf. If Rickon is indeed on Skagos, the Manderly family will raise him to lead the north.

Although there must be a reason that GRRM made him so young in the story. So Sansa is the most logical choice for leadership. The only problem is distance and renown. How will she reach her ancestral seat and who will get her there? I do not believe we will see another travelogue in the story. It would serve no purpose. Sansa may appear in the north after a time lapse.

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- Sansa as Queen of Winter - we had a really excellent discussion towards the end of Rethinking X and the beginning of Rethinking XI, where we looked at the Snow white imagery in Sansa's arc, the mythology associated with Persephone, and talked about the relevance of the "dark as ash" portion of Bran's dream in reference to the Hound.

It's a small tie in from the recent Arya re-read chapter (that someone who shall remain nameless was a week late in putting up), but in one of Jon Chapter 3 in ACOK he has been looking at the Wall and beyond and thinks the following

“He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he’d dreamt of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all.”

The part regarding Sansa is of interest as I think it ties in with the Snow Castle scene. Sansa is deeply connected to the North and she is much more of Winter than people give her credit for. Rather than the cold hardness of Winter though, she is the one who appreciates its beauty.

It reminds me a bit of Catholisism where there is the dogma, but then there is also the mystical elemenet where people are asked to contemplate the mystery of the faith. Sansa is to a degree represents the heart of Winter. Which also ties in to Tyrion's comparison of her to the Wall. The North is a fundemental part of her.

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Hmmm, that's very interesting Rapsie; and especially considering that the Wall might very well be a kind of enchantment after all.

Sansa as Queen of Winter bears weight symbolically. But practically speaking, the north would love to follow a classic warrior with a direwolf. If Rickon is indeed on Skagos, the Manderly family will raise him to lead the north.

Although there must be a reason that GRRM made him so young in the story. So Sansa is the most logical choice for leadership. The only problem is distance and renown. How will she reach her ancestral seat and who will get her there? I do not believe we will see another travelogue in the story. It would serve no purpose. Sansa may appear in the north after a time lapse.

I think we could see a mini-travelogue :) I'm not expecting Sansa to remain in the Vale for much longer (although she might not immediately North), considering LF's plans for Sweetrobin and the threats from men like the Mad Mouse. Of course, LF claims to have plans to retake the North with the Vale army, but that seems like just another ruse to entrap Sansa further.

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