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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVI

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Two things I wanna comment on:

1. There is NO WAY anyone can try to compare Sansa to a modern day "popular", leader-of-the-clique type girl. If she were in middle school, she would be eaten up and spitted out. And then trampled on for good measure. She started out with no political savvy! That's why she screwed up so badly in KL. She's not mean and mostly doesn't look down on those around her. Can you imagine Sansa ruining some poor girl's life because she has freckles or something?? That's just not who she is. I actually think she would suffer a lot if she lived in a modern society and had to go to school. Her prettiness would be held against her. As would the fact that she strives so hard to please the authority figures in her life. Popular girls are not popular because they're nice and pretty. They're popular because they're mean, and because they want to be popular. Cercei is a good example: she steps on people around her to climb high. She's ambitious and she uses her beauty to her advantage. Marg is another good example. The only reason why Sansa was the "alpha female" in WF is because se is the eldest female Stark and her mom approved of her. That's it.

-snip-

Just got me wondering. Especially with this app coming out. The app paints her as this weak, passive, silly, treacherous girl. Are we reading too much into the text? Are we searching too hard for something that exists only in our minds? We get all this great stuff from the books but how much did Martin actually put in there? And the greater question: Does it really matter if Martin didn't intend for all this great stuff to come out but we got it anyway?

For example: there's this story about a famous poet. After publishing his latest work, he was asked what deeper meaning was. His reply: "I'm still waiting for the critics to tell me what the deeper meaning is".

So... what does our interpretation of Sansa say about Martin (who obviously intended her to be different than how we interpret her), what does it say about our society if most of the intended audience hate her; and what does it say about us that we spend so much time analysing her and finding all this cool stuff about her?

Hope this makes sense :wacko:

I would mildly protest that a young girl does not always have to be mean or vicious to be the leader of a clique in middle school or junior high school. The clique leader would have a strong will and self-confidence. I was an outsider in a private all-girls school; and was never picked on by anyone; nor did I ever see the clique leaders being what I would consider mean. Some were more superficial than others, and some (there was more than one clique) were smart, with-it girls destined for top colleges/universities. Some were pretty and some were not; one that I remember (though whether she was a leader or second in a clique I can't recall) was definitely what one would call 'plain'. The worst thing that clique leaders and their clique-mates would do was avoid social connection with girls not in their clique.

I do maintain that Sansa was the leader of a 'clique' at Winterfell; probably because of her status as the Lord's oldest daughter. She might well have been outclassed by more sophisticated girls at court even if Cersei hadn't brought down the Starks in King's Landing; but she would have probably become a 'beta' in a clique due to her being the future queen of Westeros (and due to her own personality; Sansa being pretty, well-mannered, musically talented, graceful; she's someone who would be wanted by a clique of highborn young ladies).

If Winterfell had been part of a modern 'North' region in the U.S. or England, I could see Arya definitely becoming the leader of a clique in middle or high school - girls who are outstanding in sports (including fencing and martial arts).

I don't think we're reading too much into the text as far as finding good qualities in Sansa is concerned. GRRM wrote them in. He could have written her as a complete ninny or totally superficial, but from early on, she does demonstrated some empathy and kindness even while being naive. She makes a good narrator because she does, even before her father's downfall, think about other things than what other girls and ladies are wearing; she is a good observer. The app's failure to include all of Sansa's dimension could point to a lack of space or (in the mind of GRRM and whoever else is associated with the production of the app) the desire to present Sansa as they believe the majority of readers see her, a stuck-up girl who betrayed her father and has been forced by hardship and suffering to repent her 'wrongdoing'. I am a bit disconcerted that GRRM appears not to understand a character that he himself created, but I will look to the books, rather than the apps, for actual information about and development of the Sansa character.

What does it say about us that we spend so much time analyzing Sansa? Umm, that we are sufficiently fascinated by GRRM's writing of ASoIaF that we come to this forum and focus on things that interest us, like most of the other posters, and then happily examine and re-examine and compare and complain? :cool4: I don't have a problem with it, or I wouldn't be here.

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I think there might be a bit too much analyzing of the app and/or snippet's of GRRM's words.

The app clarifies some things. That is all. It does not override canon. Did they fuck up Sansa's part? Seems like it. I don't have enough room to check it out for myself. This does not change any of the awesomeness these Threads have provided in peeling away the layers. From my understanding, it wasn't literally written by GRRM. He likely checked, made sure there was no errors/spoilers and that was all. I don't see it as GRRM bias.

I actually disagree with the idea GRRM anti-Sansa bias. He is the writer. ASoIaF is a fictional world. I don't think Sansa would be as awesome a character that she is if he disliked her. Especially since she was included later than many others. GRRM could have easily made her a loathsome character (even if he didn't mean to) if he truly hated her. As far as the quote about her being his least favorite, that's no big deal. It could mean a large list of things (looking at a picture of GRRM makes me think that getting into the mentality of a sheltered pre-teen girl is not exactly easy for him, but it could be other things). But least favorite does not necessarily mean hates or even dislikes. I think it would be natural for GRRM to love all of his characters. They are his creation after all.

And it simply goes to the wedding/bedding scene for me. Sure, the app screwed it up. But the books, what GRRM actually wrote, matters. He made it through Sansa's eyes. He could have easily written it through Tyrion's and make Sansa out to be a cruel bitch who wouldn't realize how great Tyrion is. Instead, it is entirely sympathetic to Sansa. I just simply can't see GRRM hating her after that. Sure, he might sympathize with Tyrion more. He might like Tyrion more. But I can't see hate for Sansa.

On other thoughts: If GRRM did accidentally spoil "Sansa taking responsibility," that could be interesting. It could give Sansa a bigger reason to restore her House (and not in the way LF wants).

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(looking at a picture of GRRM makes me think that getting into the mentality of a sheltered pre-teen girl is not exactly easy for him, but it could be other things).

I can easily imagine that this age/gender divide would be a great difficulty for him when writing Sansa. He overcomes this difficulty amazingly well though, and I think it's one of the real triumphs of his writing. I first read the first three books when I was a fairly naive seventeen-year-old girl, so pretty close to Sansa in my world-view, certainly closer to her than to GRRM, and I remember being impressed by how he handled the key scenes of her getting her first period and her wedding night with Tyrion. Sansa's sexual awakening is also written well. Given the imaginative effort it would have taken for GRRM to connect with this character, I can't imagine he now disregards her, and so I tend to agree with you on the significance of the app. It is a shame though.

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Pretty radical, huh. :)

Sometimes I am, just I don't want to get a little mad for that thing, so I preserve myself of that. I prefer have read it here, and not look at it like a dozen times and after reading the books to find that the app is divergent from the books. If it is official, it should be exactly to the books. Just it means that I don't want to be upset for nothing, just that.

Anyway: I came to the books thru the show. But the second season is not as the books. So I didn't like many of the changes they do. In addition, I must say that I like a lot the acting.

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<snipped>

:agree: I think you are right on the money here.

On other thoughts: If GRRM did accidentally spoil "Sansa taking responsibility," that could be interesting. It could give Sansa a bigger reason to restore her House (and not in the way LF wants).

Yes, I agree, this could be a very interesting development, since it could work as a huge motivator for Sansa. And also should she come upon the facts that LF is behind the turning of the gold cloaks against Ned in KL, then she would have a huge axe to grind with LF and I do not think she'd rest until LF was undone. So far, Sansa has been so focused on just keeping her head down and surviving that she's had no real chance to gain knowledge about what really happen, nor act upon it. She obviously feels she cannot do anything about her mother's fate, or the Freys (apart from telling LF to give Harrenhal to Lord Frey), but so far, the glaring lack of knowledge and information about Ned's fate is just that: glaring. As Sansa was so involved in KL and with the Lannisters at the time, it makes sense that she should also ride out that story line. Especially if LF is indeed the person behind Ned's beheading, then Sansa has basically never strayed from that arc. Her fate has always been tied up with LF (and through him to Ned), one way or another.

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Thank you! Those are wonderful.

fiekie,

I think GRRM wants us to hate Sansa in AGOT so that so that Starks do not appear to be impossibly united and perfect. This has already been discussed in the PtP AGOT reread threads (I am pointing this out just so you don't waste time reinventing the wheel).

But he succeded a little too well! And, yes, I think this has a lot to do with readers but also with tropes associated with fantasy. Both fantasy tropes and reader bias should be covered if we want to examine this.

"Sansa acted the way that was expected of her", but in doing so went against the 'hero' Eddard and planted herself in the antagonist field. For people who only read shallowly and don't like to analyze that is enough to condemn her forever.

She is also badly written in AGOT! Her chapters are a chore to read, Arya's are fun.

Also, most readers I know came to AGOT as teenagers and they hated Sansa because she was 'that girl': stupid, shallow, very pretty, getting all the boys. Never mind what was actually in the text, we were too young at 15 to read critically.

"However. Arya's also a fun character to read. She's all badass like. And lets be honest, modern fantasy (and basically all literature ever) has trained us that the only acceptable female heroes are those that are basically Dudes with Boobs."

I think GRRM is actually subverting this, like he does with other fantasy tropes. He played with our expectations in AGOT writing it like it was another fantasy book and then started deconstructing everything.

His heroes fail when they fail at marriage, not war. Marriage unites the North (Tenns and Karstarks, Boltons and Starks), Lannisters have won the war but are falling apart because Tywin was a bad father... Robb would have been better off if he listened to Catelyn, Hoster dies repenting what he did to Lysa...

He has Tyene making a political statement with embroidery! He is trying! :D

But he is not quite successful, and I think we should sometime stop and ponder why exactly that is the case.

(Feminine female heroines are more common in fanfiction where girls who like feminine stuff simply write it in. Like Female link going on a quest to save prince Zeld and bringing embroidery (and it comes to be a plot point), or in Dragon Age f!Cousland doing blackwork embroidery... I bet if somebody wrote Brienne fanfic she would be doing a lot of mending. :D )

People bash fanfic a lot-it is seen as a lesser form of literature... Yet fanfic is the only field where the female gaze predominates.

Think of SanSan fanfic: alot of it is descriptions of how tall, strong, muscled and well endowed Sandor is... and it's great. Fanfiction pornography that is written by women is the only pornography that is worth reading. Stuff written by men is crap.

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Sometimes I am, just I don't want to get a little mad for that thing, so I preserve myself of that.

I meant I am radical because I said I like the show better after reading the app. :)

Sorry for the confusion.

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Jajajajajaja!!! I just understand the opposite :blushing: (these days I read on the run and I understand strange things).

Each one can have their own tastes (what boring if we all have the same!). The show has great things (acting, outsides,...) but, for me, the books are better (miles better!).

Right now I have as this idea that the show goes one way and the books are going at another one. A proof to me: that I like different characters if depends on the show or at the books.

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On other thoughts: If GRRM did accidentally spoil "Sansa taking responsibility," that could be interesting. It could give Sansa a bigger reason to restore her House (and not in the way LF wants).

Yes, that would be very interesting indeed. Not to mention move the plot forward! I recall GRRM saying that he took (at least one) Sansa chapter out of ADWD and moved it to TWOW. And we know that Sansa's last chapter in AFFC ended on a cliffhanger - just what was her response to the HtH marriage proposal? (Not to mention why is Lady Waynwood accepting of Harry's marriage to a bastard daughter of a minor lord, when Mychel Redfort, who is NOT the heir to a Great House, couldn't marry the bastard daughter of a king? I smell a rat, or rather, a mockingbird.)

I wonder if Sansa expresses any reluctance to go along with any of LF's future plans she finds distasteful, LF will pull out the "You betrayed your father and are partially responsible for his death" card. If he does, I hope her inner reaction is "you lying sack of shit!" though not in so many words. LF has already revealed himself to be a liar and BS artist of the highest order. I wonder if this or a similar statement would instead backfire on LF bigtime as Sansa starts digging to find out just what happened to Ned...

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Yes, that would be very interesting indeed. Not to mention move the plot forward! I recall GRRM saying that he took (at least one) Sansa chapter out of ADWD and moved it to TWOW. And we know that Sansa's last chapter in AFFC ended on a cliffhanger - just what was her response to the HtH marriage proposal? (Not to mention why is Lady Waynwood accepting of Harry's marriage to a bastard daughter of a minor lord, when Mychel Redfort, who is NOT the heir to a Great House, couldn't marry the bastard daughter of a king? I smell a rat, or rather, a mockingbird.)

I wonder if Sansa expresses any reluctance to go along with any of LF's future plans she finds distasteful, LF will pull out the "You betrayed your father and are partially responsible for his death" card. If he does, I hope her inner reaction is "you lying sack of shit!" though not in so many words. LF has already revealed himself to be a liar and BS artist of the highest order. I wonder if this or a similar statement would instead backfire on LF bigtime as Sansa starts digging to find out just what happened to Ned...

Let's hope her trying to find things out about Ned wouldn't lead to trouble for Sansa like Ned doing some digging about Robert did for him. I don't think it would,though. Sansa is a lot more subtle than Ned was. And what if she could somehow prove that LF was somehow behind Ned's death? What would happen to LF then?

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Let's hope her trying to find things out about Ned wouldn't lead to trouble for Sansa like Ned doing some digging about Robert did for him. I don't think it would,though. Sansa is a lot more subtle than Ned was. And what if she could somehow prove that LF was somehow behind Ned's death? What would happen to LF then?

If Sansa digs for dirt about her father's downfall, I think she would have a better chance of surviving than poor Ned did when he started investigating Robert's bastards. Littlefinger wanted to bring Ned down and Ned obligingly played right into his hands. Even if Sansa were foolish enough to play into Littlefinger's hands (and I definitely don't think she is); Littlefinger would be motivated to spare her life. He wants to use Sansa in his power-games; and he's not going to get any other pawn who has both the blood of Winterfell and the blood of Riverrun in her veins; so Sansa is too important a pawn to sacrifice if he can possibly avoid it. Also, Sansa is personally important to Littlefinger; she is his fantasy Cat-substitute/replay; sick as the notion is. I do think that Littlefinger would sacrifice Sansa if things came down to his survival or hers; but I believe he will not discard her for anything less than that.

Also, Sansa is wary enough of Littlefinger not to tell him all that she knows. And he does not see or guess all of her thoughts; he seems to think she's in some respects the romantic girl she was three years ago who would be thrilled at the chance to snag a handsome young knight like Harry who will probably inherit the Vale; whereas Sansa is not exactly jumping for joy at the prospect of their future union.

I personally wonder whether Sansa will figure out Littlefinger's role in Ned's downfall herself, while in the Vale (she could appeal to Bronze Yohn for help), or run into Sandor while she's escaping from the Mad Mouse and Sandor will tell her what really happened to her father after Robert's death (especially in the throne room at court, where Littlefinger openly betrayed Ned).

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I think Sansa may be able to get the idea of what happened to her father, but I believe she'd have to get out of the Vale to ever learn the whole of it. I have the feeling that that plot point is one that is going to be drawn out for her; she won't learn the whole truth for a long while, if at all. The ship may have sailed irrevocably. Ironically, were she to meet up with her husband, Tyrion, he could clue her in since he seems to have knowledge enough to lay out the details.

Sansa's more pressing plot points or cocerns at the moment include

1) Sweetrobin: She knows enough about the sweetsleep now to be aware of how having too much of it can seriously harm/kill her cousin, but when we last saw her she agreed in using it to get him down the mountain. This is a dance she must tread carefully. LF has his agenda in this matter, and Sansa needs to take a side, whether to go along with it or to somehow subvert the tide and save Sweetrobin.

2) Myranda Royce: I have always and still do feel that Myranda is not harmless, nor will she prove to be a completely "true" friend. I believe she is close to or has already figured out about Sansa not being Alayne Stone, and it's what she does with the information that worries me. Sansa needs to be on her guard, and decipher just what Myranda's motivations are to work her in a way that contributes to Sansa's welfare.

3) Harry the Heir: Sansa's intended. It's a big question of who knows what, will they or will they not marry, and again, how Sansa can challenge LF on this matter.

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Sansa is close to crossing an important moral line regarding SweetRobin. Using the sweetsleep to get him down the mountain can be justified, since he would starve if he stayed up at the Eyrie, and the weather was such that they had to get him down fairly quickly. But if she continues to press for the use of the drug on little Robert, having heard from the maester that it can kill him if continually given, then Sansa will be guilty of complicity in his eventual death. She knows, or should be able to guess, that Littlefinger not only believes that the child will die, he is planning on him dying. Sansa has to take a moral stand and do it soon. Unless she persuades herself that her cousin is so sickly and damaged that he will die anyway and that the sweetsleep prevents him from pointless suffering...

Myranda could well turn out to be a false friend to 'Alayne'. I'm willing to bet that Myranda wants a husband with good prospects and is setting her cap for Littlefinger (who she could possibly blackmail, or might already be in cahoots with in order to better manage Sansa). Although Littlefinger did warn Alayne not to talk to or trust Myranda; and LF has not so far tried to handle Sansa by telling her to do the opposite of what he actually wants.

Sansa cannot legally marry Harry the Heir until the marriage of Sansa Stark to Tyrion Lannister is annulled, or Tyrion dead. To annul the marriage, Littlefinger must reveal that Sansa is alive and under his protection; I doubt that he wants to do so. And I'm not sure that someone who is not the legal guardian of Sansa Stark can have the marriage annulled - Littlefinger is not. Her last legal guardian (according to the Iron Throne) would have probably been Cersei as queen regent (who is no longer either; and the Council wants Sansa arrested, at least most of them); and an argument can also be made for Manderly or Stannis (if they gain control of Rickon, who would be regarded as Lord Stark) or even Jon Snow if Robb's will can be upheld. I doubt that Manderly or Stannis would let Littlefinger decide who a Stark daughter can marry. So I don't think Sansa will be marrying Harry anytime soon; unless Littlefinger keeps her true identity a secret and doesn't mind that the marriage is illegal.

Of course, if Littlefinger, as Lord Protector of the Vale, has the legal right to have a Vale septon annul the marriage of a Stark and a Lannister, a marriage decreed by the Iron Throne, then he can arrange the marriage of Sansa to anyone he wants, provided that she'll go along with it. And Sansa is far less interested in being married off for her claim to Winterfell these days.

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You know who I just realized Sansa reminds me of? Queen Elizabeth I -- another redhead who was out of favor with the royal court (during her sister's reign). The skills she had to use to survive were very passive--attending Mass, even though she was a Protestant, and when she was arrested, writing letters to the queen pledging her eternal loyalty and love to the sister who'd imprisoned her. Also, Elizabeth refused to let a man marry her, knowing it would only be for her throne and not her.

Thoughts?

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Not to mention Elizabeth being found in a very scandalous position with her stepfather - twice - when she was 14 or 15.

I wouldn't want Sansa to be a virgin queen though; I think she has a lot of love to give either as a mother or a wife, or both, if she can be wed to someone she desires or at least likes (and not against her will).

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Sansa is close to crossing an important moral line regarding SweetRobin. Using the sweetsleep to get him down the mountain can be justified, since he would starve if he stayed up at the Eyrie, and the weather was such that they had to get him down fairly quickly. But if she continues to press for the use of the drug on little Robert, having heard from the maester that it can kill him if continually given, then Sansa will be guilty of complicity in his eventual death. She knows, or should be able to guess, that Littlefinger not only believes that the child will die, he is planning on him dying. Sansa has to take a moral stand and do it soon. Unless she persuades herself that her cousin is so sickly and damaged that he will die anyway and that the sweetsleep prevents him from pointless suffering...

Myranda could well turn out to be a false friend to 'Alayne'. I'm willing to bet that Myranda wants a husband with good prospects and is setting her cap for Littlefinger (who she could possibly blackmail, or might already be in cahoots with in order to better manage Sansa). Although Littlefinger did warn Alayne not to talk to or trust Myranda; and LF has not so far tried to handle Sansa by telling her to do the opposite of what he actually wants.

Sansa cannot legally marry Harry the Heir until the marriage of Sansa Stark to Tyrion Lannister is annulled, or Tyrion dead. To annul the marriage, Littlefinger must reveal that Sansa is alive and under his protection; I doubt that he wants to do so. And I'm not sure that someone who is not the legal guardian of Sansa Stark can have the marriage annulled - Littlefinger is not. Her last legal guardian (according to the Iron Throne) would have probably been Cersei as queen regent (who is no longer either; and the Council wants Sansa arrested, at least most of them); and an argument can also be made for Manderly or Stannis (if they gain control of Rickon, who would be regarded as Lord Stark) or even Jon Snow if Robb's will can be upheld. I doubt that Manderly or Stannis would let Littlefinger decide who a Stark daughter can marry. So I don't think Sansa will be marrying Harry anytime soon; unless Littlefinger keeps her true identity a secret and doesn't mind that the marriage is illegal.

Of course, if Littlefinger, as Lord Protector of the Vale, has the legal right to have a Vale septon annul the marriage of a Stark and a Lannister, a marriage decreed by the Iron Throne, then he can arrange the marriage of Sansa to anyone he wants, provided that she'll go along with it. And Sansa is far less interested in being married off for her claim to Winterfell these days.

That'd be rather sad but a possible route indeed, to convince herself it's better the way it is for SR. Hopefully we will get more in the coming novel about this dilemma, as for right now I am not wholly certain of which way I think Sansa would turn on this; I merely know what I would want her to choose.

I agree with your analysis of Myranda, I think she is setting her cap for LF. Why not, as he is rather powerful, and a shrewd woman might like that. Not only such, but judging by the airs Myranda has put on about being naughty with the menfolk, she might appreciate LF's physique - he seems to be more or less good looking apart form being short, and well, everyone remembers his wedding night with Lysa, and his "minty fresh" breath. :rolleyes:

Another concern deriving from her is who she answers to, if anyone. The way she goes about phrasing her conversation with "Alayne" traveling down the mountain speaks of wanting to ferret out information. But for whom? Herself? Her father? An unknown ally? We can't be sure of whose side of the conflict the Royces are alligned with. For all we know they may be divided in of themselves as a family, as the Freys were.

It would be interesting to get clarification on if LF's status would permit him that authority. Anyone have a definitive answer? Manderly or Stannis would certainly have a problem with LF choosing the husband. It'd be an outrage for the former, and Stannis has no love for LF in fact would probably rout him out if he could.

As to the circumstances, it seems LF is most interested in perhaps spreading a rumor around the kingdoms that Tyrion has perished on the lam and that would grant Sansa's "annullment" for his purposes. No body at this point nearby would be able to disprove that notion, as Tyrion has fallen off the beaten path in where he is now located. This would feasibly allow LF to move forward with his planned alliance. Sansa may have little say in it, and may in fact find herself married off. However, being of the mind she is, which is a little more advanced than at the time of her first "marriage" she may find a way to carve good out of it for herself, and in fact use the new spouse as a means to subvert LF. Just a thought.

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Sansa is close to crossing an important moral line regarding SweetRobin. Using the sweetsleep to get him down the mountain can be justified, since he would starve if he stayed up at the Eyrie, and the weather was such that they had to get him down fairly quickly. But if she continues to press for the use of the drug on little Robert, having heard from the maester that it can kill him if continually given, then Sansa will be guilty of complicity in his eventual death. She knows, or should be able to guess, that Littlefinger not only believes that the child will die, he is planning on him dying. Sansa has to take a moral stand and do it soon. Unless she persuades herself that her cousin is so sickly and damaged that he will die anyway and that the sweetsleep prevents him from pointless suffering...

I really do think she's going to at least attempt to protect SR; whether she's successful at it will be another story. When she came down the mountain and LF announced that he brought her a gift, she asks if he brought lemons because of the cake she had promised Robin. He's annoying and a brat, but one of Sansa's biggest grouses was when she thought she would have to marry him. Since then, she's come to act as a motherly figure, and I can't see her knowingly contributing to his demise, or not doing something to avert LF's plans.

Myranda could well turn out to be a false friend to 'Alayne'. I'm willing to bet that Myranda wants a husband with good prospects and is setting her cap for Littlefinger (who she could possibly blackmail, or might already be in cahoots with in order to better manage Sansa). Although Littlefinger did warn Alayne not to talk to or trust Myranda; and LF has not so far tried to handle Sansa by telling her to do the opposite of what he actually wants.

Myranda is a hard one to figure out and I go back and forth on whether she will prove trustworthy in the long run. She says twice that she's not in the habit of bedding monsters, and this was concerning Marillion's murder of Lysa. Given that it's really LF who did the murder, I wonder if she wouldn't be receptive to the other information Sansa might learn/recollect that truly highlights LF's monstrosity. Of course, she could just be "talking the talk" but ultimately have no problem in marrying LF and backstabbing Sansa. I've always felt that the true ally will be Mya Stone - at least based on how GRRM has developed that story line with the Lothor angle and both of them being "Stones".

Sansa cannot legally marry Harry the Heir until the marriage of Sansa Stark to Tyrion Lannister is annulled, or Tyrion dead. To annul the marriage, Littlefinger must reveal that Sansa is alive and under his protection; I doubt that he wants to do so. And I'm not sure that someone who is not the legal guardian of Sansa Stark can have the marriage annulled - Littlefinger is not. Her last legal guardian (according to the Iron Throne) would have probably been Cersei as queen regent (who is no longer either; and the Council wants Sansa arrested, at least most of them); and an argument can also be made for Manderly or Stannis (if they gain control of Rickon, who would be regarded as Lord Stark) or even Jon Snow if Robb's will can be upheld. I doubt that Manderly or Stannis would let Littlefinger decide who a Stark daughter can marry. So I don't think Sansa will be marrying Harry anytime soon; unless Littlefinger keeps her true identity a secret and doesn't mind that the marriage is illegal.

Are you familiar with Lyanna Stark's Fake Tysha theory? That opens up another possibility where LF does not have to show his hand too early or risk Sansa being captured.

Of course, if Littlefinger, as Lord Protector of the Vale, has the legal right to have a Vale septon annul the marriage of a Stark and a Lannister, a marriage decreed by the Iron Throne, then he can arrange the marriage of Sansa to anyone he wants, provided that she'll go along with it. And Sansa is far less interested in being married off for her claim to Winterfell these days.

Yup. Had the Tyrell/Lannister shenanigans never gone down in KL, Sansa might have been fairly amenable to the idea of a marriage, especially if it meant a chance to secure Winterfell again. But not only have her eyes been opened to the exploitative nature of these kinds of arrangements, she's also experiencing her own kind of awakening, linked to sexuality and identity, where she's testing out her wings in fantasies and actual courageous acts like getting SR across the mountain ledge and keeping her eyes open on the back of the mule. This is not a Sansa Stark who is going to be inclined to risk having a repeat scenario of Septa Mordane's "all men are beautiful," and given that she'll likely spend time interacting with Harry, she'll have a good idea about whether his internal qualities match his good looks. And I don't believe Martin is going to paint Harry as completely incorrigible or a disgusting lech. I think he's exactly what he seems so far: a good-natured ambitious youth, who's enjoying all the advantages that come with being popular and handsome, and is reckless with his affections. In effect, he'll probably turn out to be someone Sansa could marry, just like Lyanna could have married Robert Baratheon had circumstances and her own unwillingness not been factors. But as noted above, there are very good reasons why Sansa will not be interested in this kind of match, and very good reasons why she probably won't be enamored with Harry.

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Let's hope her trying to find things out about Ned wouldn't lead to trouble for Sansa like Ned doing some digging about Robert did for him. I don't think it would,though. Sansa is a lot more subtle than Ned was. And what if she could somehow prove that LF was somehow behind Ned's death? What would happen to LF then?

I hope he is shipped off to have a nice little meeting with Lady Stoneheart.

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