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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVI

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Someone else pointed out that both Sansa and Cat say they made a vow to obey. If the vows when married in the faith of the Seven are like some of the vows that remain today (I live in an area with many pockets of fundamentalism), the wife vows to obey, look to him as a teacher in their faith, and as head of their family. In exchange, he vows to protect, teach, and lead her as Jesus leads the faithful. I do remember going to one wedding where the wife vowed to "cleave unto her husband as a child", that particular line has always stayed with me. We may not ever know the specifics, but I'd imagine vows in ASOIAF bear at least some resemblance to the above.

I somehow don't see Cat swearing to look to Ned as a teacher in their faith. :) Different faiths aside, can you imagine some of husbands of asoiaf teaching about the 7? I don't think there is any real canon faithful are expected to know, but that it is more ritual, motion, song, prayer. Holy books are meant to exist, not to actually be read. I also didn't get the impression that heads of families and/or lords are stand-in priests (in the faith of seven).

Off topic: Makes me wonder how 'holy' the king's body is in Westeros, apart from Baelor the Blessed... Kings of Winter are interred with iron swords and sometimes are worn as cloaks but beyond that I can't remember.

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For the marriage to be annulled, someone would have to come forward and make the case for annulment. How does Sansa - or Littlefinger - do that without exposing both of them? How does Tyrion do it, when he's a kinslayer and accused kingslayer, and a fugitive from justice in another continent? Unless Littlefinger has some knowledge of Tyrion's whereabouts and a plan to kill him or ensure he is no longer Sansa's husband, or he knows how to bribe someone in power to annul the marriage, or has a fail-proof plan to completely disrupt Tommen's rule, and discredit the Lannisters for good - which might take the heat off Sansa for conspiracy, I don't see how he can go public with Sansa Stark.

Littlefinger doesn't seem worried, so I'm trying to imagine what he's plotting. Surely he doesn't know about "Aegon", and if he did I wonder if he would have a change of plans and try to ally with Aegon against the Lannisters and Tyrells. Anyway, I think Sansa will have to be even more careful than usual, because Littlefinger seems to be careless, kissing her in an unfatherly way with other nobles about. She needs to keep up the act as Alayne until she's sure she is no longer Lady Lannister and she's safe from the Lannisters' bounty hunters.

That's the whole point of the Tysha story, it doesn't require either Sansa or Tyrion to come forward. Someone claiming to be Tysha just needs to state that her marriage to Tyrion was never annuled rendering the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion automatically invalid. This way, Sansa can stay safe and Tyrion doesn't need to be found.

I somehow don't see Cat swearing to look to Ned as a teacher in their faith. :) Different faiths aside, can you imagine some of husbands of asoiaf teaching about the 7? I don't think there is any real canon faithful are expected to know, but that it is more ritual, motion, song, prayer. Holy books are meant to exist, not to actually be read. I also didn't get the impression that heads of families and/or lords are stand-in priests (in the faith of seven).

I never claimed she did. I said that some of the marriage vows I've heard may provide hints what the vows Sansa and Tyrion spoke. The consistent theme I always hear at more fundamentalist ceremonies is that they vow to love each other and the wife (in different variants) with serve, honor, obey, respect, look to her husband for guidance, follow his teachings on all matters, and so forth. I don't think it's a huge leap to guess Sansa had something similar as part of her marriage ceremony. The cleave unto the husband ceremony also had the wife kneeling to her husband. My stomach knotted up when I saw that.

I don't know anything about Catholic ceremonies though, never been to one.

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Alright, so that makes two theories that I'm pretty intrigued by: Lyanna Stark's "Fake Tysha" and tze's "Resurrection" possibilities. The first one would ideally represent what we know of LF so far and his preferred methods. Given that the AWOIAF app also appeared to confirm that Marillion is dead, I'd say LF is past due for another trick of this sort. tze's theory involves a scenario where Sansa herself is the agent of change - quite literally in this case, as she dies and is then resurrected. We've already noted some interesting symbols in Sansa's story which could play a part is said awakening. Definitely something to think about...

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1. Hasn't Tywin had that marriage quietly annulled?

We have no evidence of this in the text. Tyrion mentions something that "the Septons said it was like it never happened". Tyrion himself did not as far as we know go to the High Septon and demand an anullment, and Tysha was raped then chucked out. The person then responsible for the Septons' behaviour would be Tywin, and he cannot demand an anullment, only the people involved can.

And in any case, LF won't really need it now, since everyone who could object or identify the real Tysha is now dead.

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Perhaps Lord Tywin forced the septon who performed the ceremony either to attest in writing that it never actually was done or that the ceremony was in some way invalid---say that in his drunken state he did not do it correctly, maybe leaving out some crucial part.

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Brashcandy: surely we have already had one too many resurrections. Must we endure yet another? Maybe Littlefinger can bribe the High Sparrow into granting an annulment in exchange for the rebuilding of septs in the Riverlands on Littlefinger's dime (well dragons actually). As Lord Paramount of the Trident it would certainly be within his purview, and Lord Baelish can no doubt afford it. Further, he might be able to arrange that the deal be kept anonymous, and take the form of an official parchment signed by the High Septon that can be produced at Sansa's wedding to Harry the Heir or shown to Aegon and Jon Connington as part of a betrothal.

As the deal with Cersei about unbanning the Faith Militant shows, the High Sparrow is open to bribes---or quid pro quos---provided that the faith benefits in some significant way.

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So far we've seen resurrections of fire; sue me if I'm anxious to see some of ice ;) In any case, I'm not as wedded to the idea that it necessarily has to be a literal one, but I do admit to being intrigued.

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So far we've seen resurrections of fire; sue me if I'm anxious to see some of ice ;) In any case, I'm not as wedded to the idea that it necessarily has to be a literal one, but I do admit to being intrigued.

Isn't that wights?

Honestly, I think resurrections are a BAD thing. Though Sansa would fit the same loophole Jon does where her/his soul doesn't actually depart to the afterlife.

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Isn't that wights?

Honestly, I think resurrections are a BAD thing. Though Sansa would fit the same loophole Jon does where her/his soul doesn't actually depart to the afterlife.

I think wights are just reanimated dead people, but yeah I can understand the reluctance in accepting this as a possibility for Sansa going forward. It doesn't accord with what I'd personally like to see happen, but I do think tze is right concerning the resurrection imagery and the close Sansa/Jon parallels.

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BTW, where I am it is now the 16th of December. Happy Beethoven's Birthday to one and all. (16 December, 1770, in case any one is wondering, so he would now be 242 years old.)

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Thank you. Me too. I hate the idea that Robin deseves to die because he is inconvenient and difficult. He's difficult because of the way he was raised, and with proper care he could become someone worthy of his title... he'll never be a knight or warrior, if he's epileptic, but he can still learn how to rule. He's still just an orphaned little boy for crying out loud. He just needs less coddling and a swift dose of reality.

Aside from the fact Littlefinger will likely hasten his end, I can think of one reason why Sweetrobin won't survive much longer: winter is coming. The Vale is well provisioned and he is a little Lord, but just the same, winter is the time when those on the margins on survival (the sickly, the hungry, the crippled, and the poor) get pushed over that margin and die. These are multi-year winters in ASOIAF, and this one will be a new Long Night. What are the odds that a sickly child (who may also be mentally substandard) is going to live through something that would be able to kill even the hale and hearty adults ? Nature can be very cruel and relentless. The herd gets culled; not everybody makes it to spring.

Sansa, poor thing, may learn this about the Stark words: they are bleak. She is a child of Winterfell and so may survive, but those around her may not be so lucky.

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I think wights are just reanimated dead people, but yeah I can understand the reluctance in accepting this as a possibility for Sansa going forward. It doesn't accord with what I'd personally like to see happen, but I do think tze is right concerning the resurrection imagery and the close Sansa/Jon parallels.

I see. I don't draw a huge distinction between zombie and intelligent undead. At least not for the purposes of ASoIaF.

Actually, I'm not bothered by Sansa. Like I said, she's a warg. She gets a loophole. Or if she does die, it could be similar to how the Drowned priests die and come back.

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Incidentally, I don't know if this has been brought up, but I wonder which Stark children are not "summer children".

Rickon is a summer child. Bran definitely is and Arya are as well (Arya was born at the start of long summer, or the end of spring).

So, which Stark children are winter children ?

Robb and Jon were born at close to the same time.

We know they were born in sometime in 283, not too long after the tourney of Harrenhal. Harrenhal (year 281) was said to be in a year of "false spring", so what would that mean ? A brief mid-winter warming when then turned cold again before receding for good ? Or was it that fall was mistakenly taken to be winter, and a late fall warming was mistaken for spring, then real winter came ?

I take this to mean that either it was winter when Jon and Robb were born, or else maybe it was during late fall (the end of the false spring).

Sansa (born in 286) then is either a child of late winter or early spring ?

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Arya, Rickon, and Bran are "summer children."

Cressen talking to Shireen: “They are larger than other ravens, and more clever, bred to carry only the most important messages. This one came to tell us that the Conclave has met, considered the reports and measurements made by maesters all over the realm, and declared this great summer done at last. Ten years, two turns, and sixteen days it lasted, the longest summer in living memory.”

Sansa was just barely a winter/spring child.

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...I've written in the past about the pretty substantial amount of resurrection imagery present in Sansa's arc, and these boards have been abuzz with discussion since the release of ADWD about the possibility of Jon being released from his Watch vows via death and resurrection (because those vows explicitly end at death). If that route might get Jon out of his vows, perhaps a similar route could get Sansa out of her vows? If the vows exchanged at a Faith-based wedding include a promise to be married until death, then if the repeated resurrection imagery in Sansa's arc in fact foreshadows her own death and resurrection, Sansa might be able to argue (post-resurrection) that her marriage to Tyrion was rendered void at the time of her death, because her marriage vows were explicitly only valid until one spouse's death.

There are several problems with this idea, if you are taken to be dead then it is generally because you are dead, if you are taken to be alive then it is generally because you are alive. If you appear to be alive continuity of existence will be assumed, not that there has been some kind of wiping clean. Until death do us part is in The Anglican / Episcopalian church service but other churches have the idea that marriage will be binding in the afterlife too. In any case we have no idea what the attitude of the faith of the Seven is. Also in Jon's case I recall there were renegade watchmen entombed into the Wall to stand watch eternally - death might not be taken as ending the night's watch vow, despite the wording.

Essentially the popularity of that Jon Snow is dead, but Jon Targaryen lives and no personal continuity exists between the two is tribute to the need of some fans to have a hero who is smoother than a baby's bum. Other 'good' characters are/were flawed - so why not Jon too?

Anyhow I'm inclined in Sansa's case to a non-literal reading. Sansa is dead - Alayne Stone lives. For Sansa to live again, Alyane Stone has to die. Notice how we never see the two of them in the same place! ;) One has to be dead for the other to live.

We have no evidence of this in the text. Tyrion mentions something that "the Septons said it was like it never happened". Tyrion himself did not as far as we know go to the High Septon and demand an anullment, and Tysha was raped then chucked out. The person then responsible for the Septons' behaviour would be Tywin, and he cannot demand an anullment, only the people involved can.

I disagree with you, Randyll Tarly, over this and food eating videos. I'm not sure over which we have the deeper and more profound disagreement :)

If GRRM wants to end Sansa's marriage, he will. It's also quite possible that he wants to keep a bit of misery in both of their lives and will keep them married!

We were unlucky with ADWD. Arya seems to be considerably ahead of Sansa's narrative now judging by the global timeline.

BTW, where I am it is now the 16th of December. Happy Beethoven's Birthday to one and all. (16 December, 1770, in case any one is wondering, so he would now be 242 years old.)

Vivat!

There is a collection of Beethoven's ear trumpets in the house in was born in Bonn. It is a pretty sad thing to look at. ETA and here is a picture of some of them. You can see that they are designed with different functions in mind - either listening to one person or to be plopped into the middle of a conversation.

/off topic

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If GRRM wants to end Sansa's marriage, he will. It's also quite possible that he wants to keep a bit of misery in both of their lives and will keep them married!

Oh of that I have no doubt. :) If GRRM wants Sansa and Tyrion to be married for ever in misery, I am sure he will make it so.

The time line is interesting since as you say, we got a lot more of Arya than Sansa in AFFC/ADWD, probably because something "new" was about to get started in Sansa's story line. Which of course begs the question what new stuff. :)

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We have no evidence of this in the text. Tyrion mentions something that "the Septons said it was like it never happened". Tyrion himself did not as far as we know go to the High Septon and demand an anullment, and Tysha was raped then chucked out. The person then responsible for the Septons' behaviour would be Tywin, and he cannot demand an anullment, only the people involved can.

And in any case, LF won't really need it now, since everyone who could object or identify the real Tysha is now dead.

I can't find that quote. I'm wondering whether Tywin would even bother, but if he was keen about having Winterfell, that previous marriage had better be annulled. Tyrion was 13 (a minor) when he married, wouldn't his father be able to ask for it in his place?

My problem with fake Tysha is that F!Tysha is likely to end up a head shorter and Tyrion a widower. Marriage to Sansa would still be invalid, though.

...Actually, if Tyrion came back and learned that a Tysha was killed by Lannisters... No, I don't think I have a problem with this after all. :devil:

I never claimed she did.

I know, I was just pointing out that there is a difference in customs and religion that is too big to make comparison possible in anything but the widest possible sense. I am Eastern Catholic, our ceremonies are also too different. [Not that I've seen many marriages performed in the church, mostly marriages are civil but children are baptized. Priests tend to make a very funny face when they ask if the child's parents are wed in the church and inevitably get no for an answer. :D ]

We know they swear to obey, certainly wives must swear to be faithful (while husbands don't), the rest could be anything: cherish, protect, respect, care for in case of sickness, love etc.

snip

Why, where are you going with this?

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...The time line is interesting since as you say, we got a lot more of Arya than Sansa in AFFC/ADWD, probably because something "new" was about to get started in Sansa's story line. Which of course begs the question what new stuff. :)

The storyline in the Vale could explode. The are enough lit fuses to make that easier to imagine than the storyline being put on ice somehow.

More of an issue perhaps is the integration with the rest of the story - either into the northern, Essos, Aegon or King's Landing storylines - particularly since they seem to have moved ahead while we've heard no news from the Vale.

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We were unlucky with ADWD. Arya seems to be considerably ahead of Sansa's narrative now judging by the global timeline.

The time line is interesting since as you say, we got a lot more of Arya than Sansa in AFFC/ADWD, probably because something "new" was about to get started in Sansa's story line. Which of course begs the question what new stuff. :)

The timeline is at least 6 months out though. Lollys was raped when Myrcella went to Dorne (19th September according to the timeline), but the timeline puts her rape at the bread riot in March, which is a mistake and puts the birth of Lollys baby, six months too early.

She couldn't feasibley have had her baby before the middle of May the following year at the very earliest. In fact a nine month gestation would put the birth into the middle of June 300.

Doesn't that mean that Cersei being thrown in Jail etc, happens a lot later, like July or August? And all the subsequent events being later?

And then Jaime would have gone missing in July / August or so and the Epilogue is nearer the end to mid September? Which would fit with the Appendix which says Roslin "is great with child" which I took as just about to give birth.

It would also mean that the events at the Eyrie take place a lot later and that Sansa is there for a lot longer. She and LF could very well only be descending the Mountain around August or so.

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I can't find that quote. I'm wondering whether Tywin would even bother, but if he was keen about having Winterfell, that previous marriage had better be annulled. Tyrion was 13 (a minor) when he married, wouldn't his father be able to ask for it in his place?

Nope, according to the SSM the people involved have to ask for it personally and only the High Septon can grant it, no other Septons.

Now most likely Tywin being Tywin had it sorted anyway, by either making the Septons say it was void, or writing the High Septon. But that is still not the legal way of doing it. Plus, the marriage was duly consummated so what would Tywin's reasons be? Underage is not in itself a reason for anullment it seems.

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