Jump to content

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVI


brashcandy

Recommended Posts

I confess, I happen to be fairly enamored with Lyanna's Tysha annulment theory. I know Tyrion says that the Septon said it was as if it never happened but he doesn't say the High Septon and Martin is on record saying that it would need to be the High Septon. I doubt that as a practical matter Tywin would have needed to bring the matter to the High Septon. No one would have questioned or challenged him on this and the HS route would also be an act of asking permission to disband the marriage and Tywin strikes me as the type who considered it within his own authority to do so.

I also don't think such a plan by LF would go smoothly (hey, why should he be immune.) This new High Septon reminds me a little of Thomas Becket and I can see Septon Cellador as the priest who performed Tyrion's marriage and being sent to the Wall for it raising Becket-like issues. That could just be my wish to see LF try bribing this man though. I would be surprised if the annulment issue didn't come at all whether it was from Harry the Heir, the Vale Lords or (my suspicion) Sansa herself. It strikes me as the perfect opportunity for Sansa to start playing LF. The Tysha angle has such great plot potential and also lends itself to pulling various plotlines together.

I don't like the idea of a death/resurrection being a legal technicallity for Sansa getting out of her vows anymore than I like it for Jon escaping his. It immunizes the character from having to make a choice. I suppose if the character made the choice and the technicallity was the rationale others embraced to follow the character's lead that might change things but I'd still prefer it to be just the character's choice.

The timeline here happens to matter a great deal. Aegon has landed and what LF would do before and after that landing is probably quite different. There is also the political developments of the North to consider. If LF commits to a "Sansa retakes the North" strat before the Boltons fall and Jon is revealed as the heir he may unwittingly throw the Vale into the North's camp. LF's past with the Tyrells, Jeyne Poole, and Tyrion if he shows up with Dany can complicate his plans as well. Sansa as a bride for Aegon may strike him as a preferable choice which would have the side effect of making him the overt enemy of the Tyrells. It doesn't surprise me that Martin left this plotline where it was considering the potential implications it can have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The storyline in the Vale could explode. The are enough lit fuses to make that easier to imagine than the storyline being put on ice somehow.

More of an issue perhaps is the integration with the rest of the story - either into the northern, Essos, Aegon or King's Landing storylines - particularly since they seem to have moved ahead while we've heard no news from the Vale.

If my understanding of the timeline is correct, Sansa's final chapter in Feast ended before news of Cersei's arrest and WOS, the landing of Aegon, Jon's stabbing, and Jaime going missing, along with many other events. Now that I think about it., the Vale was hardly mentioned in Dance as well, is that correct?

Something is going on up in those mountains and it seems Martin wants to keep it a secret for now. GRRM told us he pushed a Sansa chapter off until Winds because of a new storyline. I'm pretty certain that we are going to figure out why the Vale is so quiet before Sansa rejoins the storyline. After that, no idea where or how she will rejoin the rest of the story other than I am certain it will happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The timeline is at least 6 months out though. Lollys was raped when Myrcella went to Dorne (19th September according to the timeline), but the timeline puts her rape at the bread riot in March, which is a mistake and puts the birth of Lollys baby, six months too early...

that's not going to impact on Sansa's storyline since she leaves during the purple wedding. She isn't tied into the story of the birth of young tyrion. That's not the only timeline problem - several times people travel too fast for the distances. The timeline is never really going to work because of GRRM's gardener style. But the Vale does seem to be a fair bit behind.

The last tie in between the king's landing and Vale stories is Littlefinger mentioning the mysterious tapestries in Alyane II that Cersei mentions in one of her earlier chapters in AFFC.

Nope, according to the SSM the people involved have to ask for it personally and only the High Septon can grant it, no other Septons.

Now most likely Tywin being Tywin had it sorted anyway, by either making the Septons say it was void, or writing the High Septon. But that is still not the legal way of doing it. Plus, the marriage was duly consummated so what would Tywin's reasons be? Underage is not in itself a reason for anullment it seems.

I thought the SSM said the High Septon or a council of the faith (or something along those lines) anyhow, we don't know what is involved. Is this something that is a big ceremony with bell, book and candle, seven hours of singing and seven days of penitence or is it something bureaucratic - Tywin sends a letter to third permanent under secretary (westerlands) at the Sept of Baelor who prepares a form which the High Septon signs as he eats his breakfast?

Tyrion says:

"After he was done with her, my father had our marriage undone. It was as if we had never been wed, the septons said."

that's from Tyrion X ACOK, he's talking to Shae after he's slapped her explaining why it is a bad idea to cross his father and follows directly on from his confessing the rape of Tysha for a second time.

It strikes me that the point is to tell Shae that what ever Tyrion does, Tywin can out manoeuvre him. If he marries, Tywin can even get that marriage undone.

As to grounds for annulment, who knows. ASOIAF doesn't have much in the way of detail about the canon law of the faith of the seven :laugh:

...I don't like the idea of a death/resurrection being a legal technicallity for Sansa getting out of her vows anymore than I like it for Jon escaping his. It immunizes the character from having to make a choice. I suppose if the character made the choice and the technicallity was the rationale others embraced to follow the character's lead that might change things but I'd still prefer it to be just the character's choice...

Agreed. I've bored people elsewhere about Jon. I think he does make up his mind in Jon XIII ADWD and no doubt Sansa will too in time. The Ned lived with guilt, Davos has guilt, Brienne feels guilt, Septon Meribald knows guilt. It would be odd if GRRM were to give Sansa and Jon get out of guilt free cards. Why? That would serve to make them flatter, less conflicted and less rich as characters. Where is the heart in conflict with itself? ;)

If my understanding of the timeline is correct, Sansa's final chapter in Feast ended before news of Cersei's arrest and WOS, the landing of Aegon, Jon's stabbing, and Jaime going missing, along with many other events. Now that I think about it., the Vale was hardly mentioned in Dance as well, is that correct?...

I'm not sure that the Vale is mentioned at all except as a potential source of food and in Davos I. There certainly was no substantive news from the Vale

Link to comment
Share on other sites

that's not going to impact on Sansa's storyline since she leaves during the purple wedding. She isn't tied into the story of the birth of young tyrion. That's not the only timeline problem - several times people travel too fast for the distances. The timeline is never really going to work because of GRRM's gardener style. But the Vale does seem to be a fair bit behind.

The last tie in between the king's landing and Vale stories is Littlefinger mentioning the mysterious tapestries in Alyane II that Cersei mentions in one of her earlier chapters in AFFC.

I think the first big problem with the timeline was Tyrion and Catelyn meeting up at the Inn. She would have been moving at a snail's pace while he was running his horses the entire time, and even then it was a stretch. But, I agree on Martin's gardener style accounting for it. Characters will be in the right place at the right time when needed to be.

There is one other comment from LF that makes me wonder about the timeline too. He tells Sansa that he knew Cersei would make a mess of things in KL but he didn't think it would happen quite so fast. His wording here tells me that he has news of events in KL but Cersei is still very much in power, making the decisions. LF does not yet know about her arrest.

I thought the SSM said the High Septon or a council of the faith (or something along those lines) anyhow, we don't know what is involved. Is this something that is a big ceremony with bell, book and candle, seven hours of singing and seven days of penitence or is it something bureaucratic - Tywin sends a letter to third permanent under secretary (westerlands) at the Sept of Baelor who prepares a form which the High Septon signs as he eats his breakfast?

Tyrion says:

that's from Tyrion X ACOK, he's talking to Shae after he's slapped her explaining why it is a bad idea to cross his father and follows directly on from his confessing the rape of Tysha for a second time.

It strikes me that the point is to tell Shae that what ever Tyrion does, Tywin can out manoeuvre him. If he marries, Tywin can even get that marriage undone.

As to grounds for annulment, who knows. ASOIAF doesn't have much in the way of detail about the canon law of the faith of the seven :laugh:

Martin just says the HS or a council of the faith. Tywin expresses the need to consumate the annulment or else their marriage can be set aside and it comes up again in an Asha chapter. Other than, this we have no detail. And that is a good point about little detail on canon law. Is this because Martin is withholding certain information from readers or just has not yet needed to flesh it out for us?

Agreed. I've bored people elsewhere about Jon. I think he does make up his mind in Jon XIII ADWD and no doubt Sansa will too in time. The Ned lived with guilt, Davos has guilt, Brienne feels guilt, Septon Meribald knows guilt. It would be odd if GRRM were to give Sansa and Jon get out of guilt free cards. Why? That would serve to make them flatter, less conflicted and less rich as characters. Where is the heart in conflict with itself? ;)

I'm a bit confused here on what Sansa would be feeling guild over. If I understand you correctly, the dying/resurrection would be a get out of jail free card from her vows but do her vows during the wedding ceremony really compare to the other examples? Jon made his vows of his own free will, The Ned made the promise as well. I'm not disagreeing with the idea of Sansa getting out of guilt free cards at all. You are right about the human heart in conflict. But, I'm not sure why her marriage vows (and decision not to keep to them) should be a source of guilt for her. Is a vow made at sword point really a vow? Or are you referring to something else and I just missed your point?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't like the idea of a death/resurrection being a legal technicallity for Sansa getting out of her vows anymore than I like it for Jon escaping his. It immunizes the character from having to make a choice. I suppose if the character made the choice and the technicallity was the rationale others embraced to follow the character's lead that might change things but I'd still prefer it to be just the character's choice.

I can understand this for Jon especially, but Sansa has already chosen, or at least she had no choice to begin with. She does not want to be married to Tyrion. If the resurrection happens, it only potentially allows her to accomplish something that we know she didn't want in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, although Kittykatknits, the Cersei comment to my mind always seemed to fit with news of her arrest :dunno:

On the annulment I'm not sure that Tywin's comment about Tyrion only needing to consummate the marriage to Sansa to make it unannulable is very helpful. Presumably there were other grounds on which Tyrion's marriage to Tysha could have been contested (that the priest was drunk, that Tyrion paid him, that Tyrion didn't have Tywin's permission, that the banns hadn't been read in septs for the proceeding seven weeks or who knows!), it is just that what ever those grounds were, they clearly don't apply to this later marriage (assuming Lyanna's theory of the great annulment lie is mistaken just for the sake of the argument).

On guilt - true, I'm thinking more of Jon. There would be no grounds for guilt for Sansa in wanting to be free or achieving freedom from a lannister marriage forced on her for the political advantage of her enemies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can understand this for Jon especially, but Sansa has already chosen, or at least she had no choice to begin with. She does not want to be married to Tyrion. If the resurrection happens, it only potentially allows her to accomplish something that we know she didn't want in the first place.

Jon struggled with guilt over his vows going back to GoT. Sansa's struggle has been one for agency and marriage has played a similar facet in her story to vows in Jon. Outside of a suicide or a self resurrection this would be a passive way of having her marriage situation resolved. It would be a get of agency free card rather than a guilt one-- or at least that's how it feels to me.

She has an unconsummated marriage which is a fairly simple "out" and she has LF plotting to use her for her claim and God knows what else. She can cling to her marriage as a shield from his designs as she begins to take charge (poetically appropriate since LF is ultimately responsible for her marriage to Tyrion in the first place) and then begin to influence her future course by using that shield to shape what parts of LF's schemes she will participate in and how. For example she can argue to LF that her marriage to Tyrion would give Harry the Heir an out for any plans they make should the going get tough and then suggest an alternative course which would really be her beginning to manipulate him. It may not play out that way but that type of development is what I'm looking for in her story. On the surface the resurrection out seems to keep her in the damsel in distress role with "fate" as her kinght in shining armor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

that's not going to impact on Sansa's storyline since she leaves during the purple wedding. She isn't tied into the story of the birth of young tyrion. That's not the only timeline problem - several times people travel too fast for the distances. The timeline is never really going to work because of GRRM's gardener style. But the Vale does seem to be a fair bit behind.

I think it does effect Lysa's death timeframe / how long they were in the Eyrie etc. A hell of a lot of travelling around seems to take place in just a couple of months otherwise. If events are later, then Lysa's death will also be later. Also according to the timeline comes down from the Eyrie a month after Lysa's death (she seems to be up there longer in the book.

Also if Cersei is thrown in jail 6 months later, then the request for tapestries is also later than mentioned in the timeline. We also need time for LF to have gone to Gulltown and back etc. According to the timeline, there is only ten days between he Corbay incident and Sansa descending the Eyrie. In that time LF is meant to have gone to Gulltown and a wedding and brokered a marriage deal with Lady Waynwood and got back to the Gates of the Moon. It all seems very fast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jon struggled with guilt over his vows going back to GoT. Sansa's struggle has been one for agency and marriage has played a similar facet in her story to vows in Jon. Outside of a suicide or a self resurrection this would be a passive way of having her marriage situation resolved. It would be a get of agency free card rather than a guilt one-- or at least that's how it feels to me.

Thanks for clarifying :) I guess for me the pertinent issue here is that Sansa never wanted to utter those marriage vows in the first place. The mere existence of it essentially highlights the lack of agency she had during that time, and the important things she learnt as a result stemmed from her resistance to Tyrion's advances, and her awareness of her value as a marriage pawn. So basically, any way that Sansa manages to escape this marriage, whether by LF's machinations or not, don't really strike me as all that important, considering that she's already grasped the relevant lessons about female desire and agency. I think what she goes on do afterwards - if she seizes power in the North, works with Jon, etc etc - will provide us with more meaningful insight into her continued quest for autonomy. I should note here that I don't mean to suggest that the marriage to Tyrion is insignificant, and as you noted in the rest of your post there might be ways Sansa could use it to her advantage, thereby exerting some agency and influence over her future. However, I don't know think we should be so quick to deem the resurrection plot as only a passive means of deliverance. In effect, the real work would begin after this, and that's not taking into consideration what might lead Sansa to this event. The lead up to Jon's stabbing wasn't characterised by passive behaviour, but consisted of both private and public motivators, along with active decision making.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martin just says the HS or a council of the faith. Tywin expresses the need to consumate the annulment or else their marriage can be set aside and it comes up again in an Asha chapter. Other than, this we have no detail. And that is a good point about little detail on canon law. Is this because Martin is withholding certain information from readers or just has not yet needed to flesh it out for us?

I found it!

I think the context is very important here: Tyrion is telling Shae what happened to Tysha, “When I was thirteen, I wed a crofter’s daughter. Or so I thought her. I was blind with love for her, and thought she felt the same for me, but my father rubbed my face in the truth. My bride was a whore Jaime had hired to give me my first taste of manhood.” “To drive the lesson home, Lord Tywin gave my wife to a barracks of his guardsmen to use as they pleased, and commanded me to watch.” “After he was done with her, my father had the marriage undone. It was as if we had never been wed, the septons said.”

Tywin is the one with all the agency, Tyrion himself is just a witness. It is obvious that he was present when the marriage was undone as he didn't hear if from his father but from the septons. Plural.

So it could have been a council and the fact that Tyrion says 'Tywin had it undone' doesn't mean that he didn't ask for it himself. His mouth might have betrayed him. He is an unreliable witness in this case IMO.

GRRM is no doubt less of an expert in law and canon law than some of his readers, he would be crazy to give us details.

We give him enough grief over eye colors that change between books. :D

Edit: spelling :bang:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is one other comment from LF that makes me wonder about the timeline too. He tells Sansa that he knew Cersei would make a mess of things in KL but he didn't think it would happen quite so fast. His wording here tells me that he has news of events in KL but Cersei is still very much in power, making the decisions. LF does not yet know about her arrest.

Things were going to hell before her arrest. I just took that's what he meant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But didn't Jaime received Cerseis letter the day after he took Riverrun. And Miranda tells Sansa that Riverrun has already yelded. So i guess that last Sansa chapter is somewhere around Cersei's arrest in the timeline, probably a few day after. :dunno:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But didn't Jaime received Cerseis letter the day after he took Riverrun. And Miranda tells Sansa that Riverrun has already yelded. So i guess that last Sansa chapter is somewhere around Cersei's arrest in the timeline, probably a few day after. :dunno:

Well, Jaime is visiting Darry when he finds out the Faith has been allowed militant orders again, and that Lancel will be joining.

LF does mention Cersei having allowed the Faith to arm itself again, I think after Sansa comes down from the Eyrie. So I figure that means she had her last chapter around the same time as Cersei got captured, but before Jaime got invited to Lady Stoneheart's necktie fitting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found it!

I think the context is very important here: Tyrion is telling Shae what happened to Tysha, “When I was thirteen, I wed a crofter’s daughter. Or so I thought her. I was blind with love for her, and thought she felt the same for me, but my father rubbed my face in the truth. My bride was a whore Jaime had hired to give me my first taste of manhood.” “To drive the lesson home, Lord Tywin gave my wife to a barracks of his guardsmen to use as they pleased, and commanded me to watch.” “After he was done with her, my father had the marriage undone. It was as if we had never been wed, the septons said.”

Tywin is the one with all the agency, Tyrion himself is just a witness. It is obvious that he was present when the marriage was undone as he didn't hear if from his father but from the septons. Plural.

So it could have been a council and the fact that Tyrion says 'Tywin had it undone' doesn't mean that he didn't ask for it himself. His mouth might have betrayed him. He is an unreliable witness in this case IMO.

I could have been a Council, but the fact that Tywin had it undone (Tyrion's own words) and that we don't actually know whether Tyrion was there in person, since he "heard it from the septons". What septons we don't know. Did they travel to Kings Landing? The details are extremely scant.

It's also interesting to consider that Tyrion himself refers to "my wife" in ADWD. And it's doubtful that "wife" is Sansa, considering the context. The marriage to Tysha looms large in Tyrion's mind, and it's odd that we do not get more details about it being set aside. Tyrion focuses so completely on it being a sham with Tysha a whore, but notice how he changes his tune once he learns Tysha was not a whore. If Tysha was not a whore, then the marriage was not a sham, and then who is actually, according to all the laws of the land, lawfully married to Tyrion: Tysha, or Sansa?

This is however primarily a concern for Tyrion and his mental status. Littlefinger's immidiate concern is to present a Tysha, real of false, although probably better a false one, to the High Septon and blame more Lannister bad behaviour. It should not be hard to find a witness to the atrocities Tywin decided on and Tyrion participated in against Tysha. If LF can dig out a credible Tysha and argue his case, also probably not in person, but through a proxy, then it could both work as a tool against Tyrion (whom he strongly dislikes after Tyrion fooling him about Harrenhal) but also as a way to free Sansa. We've seen LF go for a fake person before, in the case of fake Arya. Now the High Sparrow will be harder to fool, but we also know he is willing to be led if he gets something out of it. He was ok with blessing Tommen, whom he likely knows is not the true king, as long as he was able to rearm the faith militant. Could LF, or LF proxy, offer the High Sparrow something he wanted, plus help him put down the Lannisters some more (after Cersei's efforts, the Lannisters don't seem well loved by the Faith exactly) then why not proclaim "Tysha" still married to Tyrion? Tyrion is a kinslaying, kingslaying Lannister imp in the eyes of the Faith. Should they even learn he's alive, he will have taken up with an abomination born of incest, too (Dany). They have no reason to treat him fairly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But didn't Jaime received Cerseis letter the day after he took Riverrun. And Miranda tells Sansa that Riverrun has already yelded. So i guess that last Sansa chapter is somewhere around Cersei's arrest in the timeline, probably a few day after. :dunno:

Which would put Sansa's last chapter around late July or August, which means she is further along time wise than previously presumed, and that the Harry the Heir plan is still in its infancy (and indeed may never come to fruition).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Essentially the popularity of that Jon Snow is dead, but Jon Targaryen lives and no personal continuity exists between the two is tribute to the need of some fans to have a hero who is smoother than a baby's bum. Other 'good' characters are/were flawed - so why not Jon too

Vivat!

There is a collection of Beethoven's ear trumpets in the house in was born in Bonn. It is a pretty sad thing to look at. ETA and here is a picture of some of them. You can see that they are designed with different functions in mind - either listening to one person or to be plopped into the middle of a conversation.

/off topic

Thanks Lummel. At least somebody replied. It is sad, but sometimes I wonder if his deafness did not contribute to a certain urgency pushing him to innovate in the way he did.

Also the real five year gap is between 1812 and 1817 which separates his middle period compositions and his late period compositions :-):-):-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Things were going to hell before her arrest. I just took that's what he meant.

I agree. Petyr says (paraphrasing) that Cersei is stumbling from one dumb mistake to another, helped by her council of incompetent idiots, and he didn't expect things in KL to go this bad this quickly. (This makes me assume LF had schemes cooking that he wanted more time to plan and execute, but he's going to go by the seat of his pants anyway.)

When Jaime is at Riverrun, talking to Genna and Daven Lannister, Genna (IIRC) says that Cersei has put together the worst small council one could imagine, filled with incompetents like Harys Swyft and Orton Merryweather. It seems that Cersei's regime is making things go downhill so quickly that the Lannister faction is scrambling to make contingency plans - LF is not the only one trying to save his/her neck.

Which would put Sansa's last chapter around late July or August, which means she is further along time wise than previously presumed, and that the Harry the Heir plan is still in its infancy (and indeed may never come to fruition).

I've suspected for some time that the HtH plan is not going to go as planned for any number of reasons: Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, Harry's not wanting to marry a bastard (if a bastard daughter of a a king can't marry a knight of good family, could the bastard daughter of a minor lord marry the heir to the Vale? I smell a mockingbird), Sansa just plain not wanting to go along with LF's plans, Alayne being revealed as Sansa by people hostile to LF, Petyr planning to marry her to himself instead, Petyr deciding that Aegon (real or fake) is the bigger marriage prize.

I think it's significant that GRRM moved Sansa's chapter to TWOW; I don't think he would have done that while leaving her last chapter in AFFC on a cliffhanger if something new and exciting in Sansa's arc wasn't about to happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lyanna Stark,

We don't have enough info to know, only to justly assume. So, I personally think on the grounds of evidence I have gathered that Tyrion is no longer married to Tysha. But it can go either way - there is no evidence that Tyrion did the asking, and only a hint that he was present, there is no mention of a council, only of septons in plural... Is the marriage truly unmade? No idea, only a hunch.

Even if Tyrion himself asked the High Council to annul the marriage, if he asked on the ground of Tysha's deception ('she has deceived me, she was a whore') that would no longer be valid because she is not a whore. Which means the marriage hasn't been annulled after all.

And as for Tyrion calling her 'his wife' - he is not in a mood for legalities, nor is he objective.

I do not argue against Fake Tysha theory on the ground of impossibility (though I cast my vote with Tysha the sailor's wife theory), I'm sure LF can whip one up. When have laws stopped him?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's significant that GRRM moved Sansa's chapter to TWOW; I don't think he would have done that while leaving her last chapter in AFFC on a cliffhanger if something new and exciting in Sansa's arc wasn't about to happen.

True. And we've spent a great deal of time thinking of how the marriage to Tyrion will be resolved, but is Sansa even going to be waiting around for that to happen, given what Littlefinger has revealed? We know that she tried to use the marriage as an impediment to his plans, but since it's clear that won't work (and she is currently engaged), Sansa may have to find another way to evade this arrangement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...