From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVI

[brashcandy]

Resources 6

Milady of York: Some thoughts on the unkiss

Black Crow's Heretical contribution: Summary

Mahaut's essay: Courtliness, Courtly Love and Sansa

[Le Cygne]

Though the fantasy wasn’t originated by the cloak itself, it did serve as a trigger and to consolidate the fantasy. According to clinical psychologist Dr. Mary Lamia: “Holding onto certain possessions is a way to activate the recall of emotion. Yet it is not simply emotional memory that is triggered by an object but also the connection you had with the person who is represented by it [sandor, in this case]. You may muse about the past because you want to recreate a satisfying emotional experience [the part where she reached to touch his face and he cried], if only fleetingly, through a daydream [the kiss].”

Were the memory an unpleasant one, discarding this memento would be a way to deactivate recall and symbolically “dispose” of the person through this material representation of their mutual interaction. Besides, it’s a fact that negative emotions such as fear, guilt and disgust, which usually accompany uncomfortable memories, don’t promote but inhibit sexual and romantic responses.

I meant to comment earlier, the above stood out when I read Milady's excellent unkiss essay. If we were solving this as a mystery, wouldn't Sansa keeping the cloak be the clue that solves the case? She wants to remember him.

The only time when it’s quite clear that he did express a wish to kiss her was in the episode at the Serpentine steps, and she didn’t get the clues then as we can see by her innocent replies to his words and behaviour. Then, her fantasy is a result of her overall assessment of her interactions with him, especially the latter part of Blackwater, and that also explains why it’s evolving into more and more complex images as her emotions get clearer...

We cannot say yet if GRRM will decide that it will develop into a permanent mismemory or will be dispelled either by herself or Clegane, but we do know that the developing of her sexuality that started with it hasn’t finished yet, and her fantasy has already started to disconnect from the Blackwater, moving on to another stage where sexual dreams take place, dreams that have the purpose of rehearsing attachment-related scenarios during sleep, to process affective and mental content from daytime life, and that, were this not fictional, should be already explicit at this point.

So we don't see every step of the fantasy, as it evolves, but an author like Martin, it seems, would want us to have all the clues. So we look back, as she must be doing, and they are there. The "song" takes on new meaning. The dream not only processes all of the day's many thoughts of him, but earlier thoughts as well. And we see she thought of him that way before he came to her room the night of the unkiss.

When she goes through a long list of people, including her family, she sings for in the sept, only the Hound gets a special prayer of his own at the end. It's pretty personal, too, "Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him". Then she wishes he was there. Then she thinks of him one more time, too. Why would the author include all of that, it would just clutter up scenes about something else if it didn't matter.

So what I'm trying to say is, yes, we have a lot of evidence this is not just about one moment in time, or even just a kiss, it's about him.

[brashcandy]

When we were doing the Sansa reread, one thing that stood out was her abject terror of Ilyn Payne. Now granted, some of this might have been foreshadowing of Ned's death, but this ingrained fear continues afterwards, and I'm wondering if any one has any theories about if Ilyn Payne could reappear in Sansa's life and what role he could play. There's the obvious one relating to the possibility that she's captured and sent back to KL, but that doesn't seem likely when we consider where Sansa's story line looks to be headed.

[Caro99]

When we were doing the Sansa reread, one thing that stood out was her abject terror of Ilyn Payne. Now granted, some of this might have been foreshadowing of Ned's death, but this ingrained fear continues afterwards, and I'm wondering if any one has any theories about if Ilyn Payne could reappear in Sansa's life and what role he could play. There's the obvious one relating to the possibility that she's captured and sent back to KL, but that doesn't seem likely when we consider where Sansa's story line looks to be headed.

Maybe she doesn't need to be taken captive to KL. Ser Illyn is/was with Jaime. if he and brienne should meet sansa somehow... :o

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

When we were doing the Sansa reread, one thing that stood out was her abject terror of Ilyn Payne. Now granted, some of this might have been foreshadowing of Ned's death, but this ingrained fear continues afterwards, and I'm wondering if any one has any theories about if Ilyn Payne could reappear in Sansa's life and what role he could play. There's the obvious one relating to the possibility that she's captured and sent back to KL, but that doesn't seem likely when we consider where Sansa's story line looks to be headed.

I just always figured that it was because Payne is a nasty piece of work. The Jaime chapters seem to confirm.

[Lummel]

When we were doing the Sansa reread, one thing that stood out was her abject terror of Ilyn Payne...and I'm wondering if any one has any theories about if Ilyn Payne could reappear in Sansa's life and what role he could play...

Why? Not everything is a foreshadowing of something else. It is, I feel, just about within the bounds of possibilty that Sansa has an abject terror of Payne because he's a pretty terrifying kind of guy. A taller, pockmarked, mute executioner... I feel frightened just typing about him! :laugh: He's a living archetype of death.

[bgona]

When we were doing the Sansa reread, one thing that stood out was her abject terror of Ilyn Payne. Now granted, some of this might have been foreshadowing of Ned's death, but this ingrained fear continues afterwards, and I'm wondering if any one has any theories about if Ilyn Payne could reappear in Sansa's life and what role he could play. There's the obvious one relating to the possibility that she's captured and sent back to KL, but that doesn't seem likely when we consider where Sansa's story line looks to be headed.

I have been wondering about that.

First thing: Ser Ilyn Payne is also at the Riverlands practicing with Jaime. He has also a physical disgrace (the mad king ordered to take off his tongue). I don´t know if it is told what he said to be cut it out.

Second thing: his coat of arms is a checkered white and purple with yellow coins. White means death, purple means pain (as his last name) and yellow means lies. These meanings are my own ideas.

I say that purple means pain due to the fact that it is the color used at the death of Joffrey. That wedding is known by that color. And he suffered a lot until he died.

Third thing: he used to be the Justice of the King. He is another butcher.

Maybe it will be a reunification of Sansa, Sandor and Ser Ilyn Payne (as at the first time). Maybe there it will be the proof that Sandor is not more a butcher (as Sansa deserves someone better than a butcher, because she is from the North :leer: )

But also Ser Ilyn can have also a play with Lady Stoneheart. Or maybe with Arya.

[bgona]

I have another thing that I have thinking on about the reread.

You remember the 3 ducks that Sansa hawk got while Margaery´s took one bird (I can´t recall right now which one) flying.

Well: Margaery planned the death of Joffrey that was a King that was beginning to fly.

But I have notice the importance of the number 3: 3 dragons, 3 heads of the dragon, 3 books that Tyrion read, 3 dogs at the autumn grass, 3 people that are wearing the Hound helm, Cersei had 3 children, Tywin also got 3, 3 boys at the song of The Bear and The Maiden Fair, etc...

Also there is that character called Duck at ADWD. This gives me the idea that duck can have another meaning. Due to the fact that English is not my mother language (as everybody can notice), I will love to read ideas of the meaning of duck. And what it can be related to Sansa.

I have found duck as Yes, ducks as Yes, honey. Can it be as a meaning of lovers? I am not sure about it.

[Le Cygne]

About Ser Ilyn, there was Jaime's look at the man behind the curtain, and he turned out to be a sad old guy who lived in the midst of unemptied chamber pots, and jumped at the chance to come along for the ride:

The chambers stank of rotted food, and the rushes were crawling with vermin. As Jaime entered, he almost trod upon a rat. Payne’s greatsword rested on a trestle table, beside a whetstone and a greasy oilcloth. The steel was immaculate, the edge glimmering blue in the pale light, but elsewhere piles of soiled clothing were strewn about the floors, and the bits of mail and armor scattered here and there were red with rust. Jaime could not count the broken wine jars. The man cares for naught but killing, he thought, as Ser Ilyn emerged from a bedchamber that reeked of overflowing chamber pots. “His Grace bids me win back his riverlands,” Jaime told him. “I would have you with me . . . if you can bear to give up all of this.”

Silence was his answer, and a long, unblinking stare. But just as he was about to turn and take his leave, Payne had given him a nod. And here he rides. Jaime glanced at his companion. Perhaps there is yet hope for the both of us.

Sort of like Sandor saying, "paint stripes on a toad, he does not become a tiger", about Ser Boros.

[Lykos]

bgona, well to duck means to take cover, maybe it´s foreshadowing that Sansa is to get away from three arranged marriages, which she allready has. Joffrey, Willas and Tyrion or does one of them not count?

Margaery´s peregrine caught a heron, which could represent Joffrey.

Herons are also known as "shitepokes" , or euphemistically as "shikepokes" or "shypokes". Webster's Dictionary suggests that herons were given this name because of their habit of defecating when flushed. The terms "shitepoke" or "shikepoke" can be used as insults in a number of situations. For example, the term "shikepoke" appears in the 1931 play Green Grow the Lilacs, and in the 1943 musical play Oklahoma!.

wikipedia

ETA:

<snip> there's a medieval English poem that lists what bird of prey a man may keep based on his social estate (you might remember this if you've read "Kes":

"An Eagle for an Emperor, a Gyrfalcon for a King; a Peregrine for a Prince, and a Saker for a Knight; a Merlin for a lady, a Goshawk for a Yeoman, a Sparrowhawk for a Priest, and a Kestrel for a Knave"

<snip>

Margaery gets the bird for a Prince, interesting.

[brashcandy]

Thanks for all the responses guys :) I like Lummel's assessment of Ser Ilyn as a living archetype of death, and it's interesting how from the very beginning Sansa is so aware and terrified of his essential purpose. Add in LB's point that he's a nasty piece of work and you come to a figure who represents a zero sum total of redemption or hope. We've noted Sansa's inspirational qualities: her ability to transform lives and restore faith; what Payne symbolizes then is completely antithetical to her values. He's also useful for insight into her relationship with Sandor as Le Cygne alluded to above. She's scared of the Hound, but naturally terrified of Payne, and he features at both the beginning and the end of her time with Sandor, underscoring by contrast the protective relationship she enjoys with the latter, and the potential for growth and change that has been central to their interaction right from the start.

[Le Cygne]

I think Sansa realizes within each enounter, and even concludes in the end, what scares her is what Sandor reveals to her, about herself, and what's going on in the world around them, but not him. And she rises to the challenges, she meets her fears (and challenges Sandor right back, he's a safe place to test her strength). If the author just wanted to just show that she is afraid all the time, of him, and of everyone, and of everything, he wouldn't have put all of that detail into the story.

[Daenerys is my queen]

When we were doing the Sansa reread, one thing that stood out was her abject terror of Ilyn Payne. Now granted, some of this might have been foreshadowing of Ned's death, but this ingrained fear continues afterwards, and I'm wondering if any one has any theories about if Ilyn Payne could reappear in Sansa's life and what role he could play. There's the obvious one relating to the possibility that she's captured and sent back to KL, but that doesn't seem likely when we consider where Sansa's story line looks to be headed.

Ilyn Payne is a pretty creepy guy. I'd be scared of him too. (:

I think Sansa realizes within each enounter, and even concludes in the end, what scares her is what Sandor reveals to her, about herself, and what's going on in the world around them, but not him. And she rises to the challenges, she meets her fears (and challenges Sandor right back, he's a safe place to test her strength). If the author just wanted to just show that she is afraid all the time, of him, and of everyone, and of everything, he wouldn't have put all of that detail into the story.

:agree: She also probably dislikes that he's kind of shaking up her romantic view of the world. (Along with everything that's happening in KL of course). Sansa is a total romantic and probably doesn't understand (at least at first) the Hound's total cynicism. She also desperately wants to believe that the world is romantic and amazing just like in the songs but eventually she can't because of everything that happens to her.Although she tries to cling to those beliefs as long as she can. The Hound, however, is trying to show her that the world is not like a song and she eventually does learn that.

:blushing: Sorry for the randomness. I hope it makes some kind of sense.

[Le Cygne]

It makes sense to me, that's what I was trying to say. I think they were helping each other, they are both pushing each other in just the right directions.

[Kittykatknits]

Thanks for all the responses guys :) I like Lummel's assessment of Ser Ilyn as a living archetype of death, and it's interesting how from the very beginning Sansa is so aware and terrified of his essential purpose. Add in LB's point that he's a nasty piece of work and you come to a figure who represents a zero sum total of redemption or hope. We've noted Sansa's inspirational qualities: her ability to transform lives and restore faith; what Payne symbolizes then is completely antithetical to her values. He's also useful for insight into her relationship with Sandor as Le Cygne alluded to above. She's scared of the Hound, but naturally terrified of Payne, and he features at both the beginning and the end of her time with Sandor, underscoring by contrast the protective relationship she enjoys with the latter, and the potential for growth and change that has been central to their interaction right from the start.

I'm coming late to this conversation but want to throw my support behind Lummel's idea. He's introduced as a character of death, he is the would-be killer of Lady, he kills Ned, he's the potential killer of Sansa (during the BBW). His sword is covered with old blood - physical remains that remind us of his association with death. His room is dirty and foul, very death-like. In Feast, when Jaime talks to him, Payne's solution regarding Cersei is to put his finger across his throat. He has no tongue, so he's a silent killer, impartial.

I don't know if he will have a specific influence on Sansa's story and I don't see how at this point. I saw him as more a physical symbol of what is actually surrounding Sansa. Her family is dying, she's threatened with loss of life, she's in the city while men are dying. She's made complicit in murder by LF. Even though Sansa has never actually killed anyone, death surrounds her.

[bgona]

bgona, well to duck means to take cover, maybe it´s foreshadowing that Sansa is to get away from three arranged marriages, which she allready has. Joffrey, Willas and Tyrion or does one of them not count?

Margaery´s peregrine caught a heron, which could represent Joffrey.

wikipedia

ETA:

Margaery gets the bird for a Prince, interesting.

Thanks Lykos!!! I haven´t read all this days and I see that you have discuss this subject!! I have to read it now!!

I like the idea of getting away of the marriages. Indeed, she is with 3 marriages (Joffrey, Tyrion and Harry the Heir, if he approves her). Willas was just a big carrot. She first should have be able to go away of KL and that it was something that Cersei won´t allow.

Thank´s for quoting Lummel!

[bgona]

About the idea of Ser Ilyn with death that is the connection with "butcher", who kills without feelings, not rage, not hate, not enjoyment, not fear. He is the emptyness of feelings.

[brashcandy]

I don't know if he will have a specific influence on Sansa's story and I don't see how at this point. I saw him as more a physical symbol of what is actually surrounding Sansa. Her family is dying, she's threatened with loss of life, she's in the city while men are dying. She's made complicit in murder by LF. Even though Sansa has never actually killed anyone, death surrounds her.

We noted in the Arya re-read how Arya seems to find life in death - she's always plunging into dark spaces where she finds relief, or can remain hidden from threats; she eats worms, tastes mud in her mouth etc etc. So both sisters are able to function and seize some kind of vitality out of their grim environments.

About the idea of Ser Ilyn with death that is the connection with "butcher", who kills without feelings, not rage, not hate, not enjoyment, not fear. He is the emptyness of feelings.

Indeed. And there's an interesting parallel in the descriptions of how Sansa feels under the gaze of Payne and Littlefinger. I would certainly lean towards the reading that within LF there is a similar absence of feelings, and he's responsible for much of the death and destruction in Sansa's life:

There was general laughter, led by Lord Renly himself. The tension of a few moments ago was gone, and Sansa was beginning to feel comfortable ... Until Ser Ilyn Payne shouldered two men aside and stood before her, unsmiling. He did not say a word. Lady bared her teeth and began to growl, a low rumble full of menace, but this time Sansa silenced the wolf with a gentle hand to the head. "I am sorry if I offended you, Ser Ilyn," she said.

She waited for an answer but none came. As the headsman looked at her, his pale colorless eyes seemed to strip the clothes away from her, and then the skin, leaving her naked before him. Still silent, he turned and walked away.

When Sansa finally looked up, a man was standing over her staring. He was short, with a pointed beard and silver streak in his hair, almost as old as her father. "You must be one of her daughters," he said to her. He had grey-green eyes that did not smile when his mouth did. "You have the Tully look."

"I'm Sansa Stark," she said ill at ease....

"Your mother was my queen of beauty once," the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint... Quite abruptly he turned and walked away.

And later at the council meeting after Ned's death:

... she could feel Littlefinger staring. Something about the way the small man looked at her made Sansa feel as though she had no clothes on. Goose bumps pimpled her skin.

[bgona]

I haven´t see that parallel!

[Le Cygne]

There's a line from the show I like, too, Sandor said he was afraid of Ilyn Payne, too.

Do I frighten you so much, girl? Or is it him there, making you shake. He frightens me, too.