Ways Jon Could Legally / Gracefully Leave The Night's Watch

[Summer is Ending]

Things seem to be leading up to a final showdown with the Others, one in which the Wall could potentially fall and/or what's left of the Night's Watch could be wiped out. In any event, the NW is on its last legs. They were severely depleted even before half of them marched north with Mormont, and half of those guys didn't make it back. The skeleton crew that's left is nowhere near enough to effectively guard the Wall. In the aftermath of the upcoming confrontation with the Others, I think the Night's Watch will probably be disbanded or become a very different entity. If the Others are ultimately defeated, the NW will be obselete.

It's worse than that, the ranging that Mormont led were nearly all the fighting men of the Watch and nowhere near half made it back.

And instead of three hundred brothers drawn up in disciplined ranks to meet them, the wights would find forty-one ragged survivors, nine too badly hurt to fight. Forty-four had come straggling into Craster’s out of the storm, out of the sixty-odd who’d cut their way free of the Fist,

Add the mutiny on top of that and the hundred crows dead at the Bridge of Skulls. The fighting arm of the NW is shattered, all that's left now are pretty much just the ones unfit to ride on the ranging in the first place.

Jon watched unblinking. He dare not appear squeamish before his brothers. He had ordered out two hundred men, more than half the garrison of Castle Black. Mounted in solemn sable ranks with tall spears in hand, they had drawn up their hoods to shadow their faces … and hide the fact that so many were greybeards and green boys.

[SerNotAppearingInThisFilm]

Well, yeah. I probably understated just how dire their situation is. My point was, Jon won't have to worry about finding a way out of the Night's Watch. It is so severely depleted and dysfunctional (the last two LCs have been killed, or at least apparently killed, by their own troops), I don't see how it can possibly survive a full scale Others invasion.

[Ingelheim]

To know the number of the brothers of the NW you have to count the votes of the election to LC. I counted 619, I think

[TheGriffonReborn]

your watch ends when you die.

period.

1. Even if the Wall falls down, the Night's Watch will continue to exist

2. he is not dead, and if he dies, he will not be resurrected; and even if he's resurrected as a human being, that doesn't release him from his duties

3. if he's legitimized as Lord Of Winterfell, it's up to him, and he won't leave the NW; he didn't do it when Stannis asked; as Mormont said: are you a man of the Night's Watch, or a bastard boy who wants to play at war?

Well, if Robb legitimized Jon then at least he wont be a bastard boy who wants to play at war. :laugh:

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Jon will never be Lord of Winterfell

He likes the NW (at least he liked until he got stabbed by his own men)

I'm a R + L = J supporter, Jon has bigger things waiting for him than Winterfell, the next Lord of Winterfell will be Rickon

[Ingelheim]

Jon will never be Lord of Winterfell

He likes the NW (at least he liked until he got stabbed by his own men)

I'm a R + L = J supporter, Jon has bigger things waiting for him than Winterfell, the next Lord of Winterfell will be Rickon

I agree. Winterfell belongs to Rickon. He is the greatest of Eddard's childrens (If R+L=J, of course)

He has been fighting against the Others and the wildlings for years, now he are not going to stop fighting them.

[wolfmaid7]

Many people believe that if he trully die (and later get resurrected) it will be enough and Jon will be free from his oath, but as Dolorous Edd foreshow:

"Once they figure a way to work a dead horse, we'll be next. Likely I'll be the first too. 'Edd,' they'll say, 'dying's no excuse for laying down no more, so get on up and take this spear, you've got first watch tonight.' Well, I shouldn't be so gloomy. Might be I'll die before they work it out."

Dying is not an excuse, so get up Lord Snow you have a War to fight and a Wall to rule :P

Totally agree, i wholeheartedly believe this, Jon will not leave the NW no matter what loop hold there may be for him to stay after he gets up.He knows he must stay.

[Tibi088]

Im not so sure about Rickon. Rationally yes, he should be the lord of Winterfell but Bran is not dead. Bran is the oldest Stark male alive (and not a member of the NW) and he has never formally abducted his title so de jure he is Lord of Winterfell. I dont know if he ever will come back from the north but if he does then Winterfell is his. And i think Rickon knows or at least thinks that Bran is alive. And him taking the title would mean to proclaime Bran dead.

And there is still that theory of Jeyne having Robb's child. If she does and the baby is a boy then that baby is lord of Winterfell. If its girl i dont know. Does the daughter of the late lord get the title or the late lords oldest brother? In our world there are precedents for both in different realms but which one might be valid in this chase?

[The Sunset King]

One thing that is unclear is whether the same the logic of "death = nullification of the vows" would also apply to inheritence. If the northern lords knew Jon perished and was revived (would there be reliable eye witnesses?), would they ponder whether the same death that released him from the NW might also throw the heir issue into question? If they desperately want Jon, they might not care, but if they prefer Rickon or something else happens, it could matter. If the heir can be released from vows through death, it is unclear that the heir must still be chosen if he died once already. Wills do not take ressurections into account since they are not events that most even believe possible.

This wouldn't matter much if Jon is released from the NW through some means other than death, but it is interesting to contemplate. Whether a hypothetical ressurection is witnessed by credible individuals or not would have considerable bearing on the matter.

[Summer is Ending]

One thing that is unclear is whether the same the logic of "death = nullification of the vows" would also apply to inheritence. If the northern lords knew Jon perished and was revived (would there be reliable eye witnesses?), would they ponder whether the same death that released him from the NW might also throw the heir issue into question? If they desperately want Jon, they might not care, but if they prefer Rickon or something else happens, it could matter. If the heir can be released from vows through death, it is unclear that the heir must still be chosen if he died once already. Wills do not take ressurections into account since they are not events that most even believe possible.

This wouldn't matter much if Jon is released from the NW through some means other than death, but it is interesting to contemplate. Whether a hypothetical ressurection is witnessed by credible individuals or not would have considerable bearing on the matter.

I'm never that interested in this idea of a death clause because I don't think they'd be as silly as the people on this board so I just can't really see them arguing about 'well technically you know...'.

Zombie Cat wasn't too interested in hearing Brienne's protests about how the woman she swore service too was dead and no one disagreed with her.

[Djinn]

No. Jon can't leave the Nights Watch while it exists without oathbreaking.

Robb comes up with this nonsense because he's desperate. Robb's will is meanningless because Bran and Rickon are alive and Robb isn't the acknowlegded King by anyone other then Northman and Riverlanders. If NW accepts that the King of the North and Trident can release someone, why shouldnt the King in the Iron Throne release everybody in the NW?

All acts as King performed by the claimants will not be recognized by the others, so untill final victory, they all have flimsy status.

[Summer is Ending]

No. Jon can't leave the Nights Watch while it exists without oathbreaking.

Robb comes up with this nonsense because he's desperate. Robb's will is meanningless because Bran and Rickon are alive and Robb isn't the acknowlegded King by anyone other then Northman and Riverlanders. If NW accepts that the King of the North and Trident can release someone, why shouldnt the King in the Iron Throne release everybody in the NW?

All acts as King performed by the claimants will not be recognized by the others, so untill final victory, they all have flimsy status.

We already know the iron throne planned to take sworn brothers out of the NW.

[Sworn Shield]

I agree. Winterfell belongs to Rickon. He is the greatest of Eddard's childrens (If R+L=J, of course)

He has been fighting against the Others and the wildlings for years, now he are not going to stop fighting them.

Winterfell belongs to Bran the rightful King in the North. Manderly and Robertt Glover know he is alive, as does at least one person from the mountain clans and so does Rickon and Osha. I wonder if a near experience with death or death itself will change Jon's attitude to the Others. In a series of grey moralities how evil can the Others be, anymore evil that dragons burning people alive.

[sarah.jenice]

When a brother of the Night's Watch dies, his brothers say, "And now his watch has ended." I think that Jon's brothers will say this to release him of his vows, light his funeral pyre (he would be burned, not buried) and Jon will walk out of the flames (R+L=J and all).

I don't want him to be kissed by Mel or be like Beric/UnCat, but if Jon is AA reborn, you could argue that he needs to die and come back to begin that prophecy.

[Djinn]

We already know the iron throne planned to take sworn brothers out of the NW.

You mean Cersei? Considering her other plans at the time, just another screw-up waiting to happen. It's like Jaime says:''Once you open the gates...''.

[jon stark I]

Jon can actually walk away anytime if he is legitimezied and freed by Robb because we have an example on our hands.A man of NW serves for all his life running away is punished by death just like Kingsguard.Kingsguard also serves all their life until Joff unmade that law by dismissing Selmy from his Kingsguard so by that logic Robb could unmade a similar vow too.And if Jon survives he will be a free man but he will also protect the realm against the others until the others are destroyed but he won't be Lc of NW he will use wildlings and the man loyal to him in NW.But he won't be a crow anymore and i see Bowen Marsh and his friend head on spikes in future.

[Arya Targaryen]

I think the NW as an organization will cease to exist very soon. There are different kinds of people up there at the Wall, all with different loyalties. Mel seems to be loyal to Jon, most wildlings too (but not all - there was that funny wannabe descendent-of-a-king), and some (maybe half?) of the Watch. They will definitely split. If Bowen and co survive and gets elected (though I doubt it will happen), the likes of Emmett, Edd, Satin, Leathers will probably stick with Jon, even if he goes to Winterfell, and Bowen I think wouldn't mind that much because he would fear for his life if Jon's friends are around. And then there is no reason to call anyone "NW". If Bowen and co. gets killed, there won't be much of a NW left, maybe a few of Jon's friends. Anyway, the NW is unable to defend the Wall, so they need to go and gather some armies and hope the Others wont attack until they are back.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

However, to those saying it's against Jon's character to leave anyway: you're wrong. Jon has already broken his vow once to protect the realm, both figuratively by working with Mance and literally by sleeping with Ygritte. And he planned to do so again. His last act as Lord Commander is saying "Fuck my Vows, my sister is in trouble and I'm gonna fix that!". He intends to fight Boton, which is explictedly against his vows and take the Wildlings with him which probably violates the spirit of the vows a little bit. But Jon recognizes the truth of the matter, vows are words and words are wind, one man's honour is not worth more than the safety of the realm.

Jon never broke any vows. He only pretended to be a wildling to protect the realm, the number one vow. Also, no place does it say I vow never to have sexual relations with a woman. The vow clearly states I shall father no children. Which means he shall not act as a father to a child. It says nothing about fornitcation or even impregnating anybody. The point of the vows aren't to keep you celebate, but rather to make sure your number one loyalty is to the Watch, not to a family/a Lord/ a King. Jon was a boy at the time, and thought he was breaking the vow because he knows thats how you make babies.

Was he tempted to run away with Ygritte and start a family? Sure he was, it was his first woman and he was a boy. When it came time to make a decision, he did the right thing, and headed back to the wall where he belonged. Temptation is not a sin.

[Jordouche]

Jon never broke any vows. He only pretended to be a wildling to protect the realm, the number one vow. Also, no place does it say I vow never to have sexual relations with a woman. The vow clearly states I shall father no children. Which means he shall not act as a father to a child. It says nothing about fornitcation or even impregnating anybody. The point of the vows aren't to keep you celebate, but rather to make sure your number one loyalty is to the Watch, not to a family/a Lord/ a King. Jon was a boy at the time, and thought he was breaking the vow because he knows thats how you make babies.

Was he tempted to run away with Ygritte and start a family? Sure he was, it was his first woman and he was a boy. When it came time to make a decision, he did the right thing, and headed back to the wall where he belonged. Temptation is not a sin.

Not sure about that... I think you're being a bit too picky with the wording. The whole idea of celibacy is devotion and discipline... 'Fathering no children' as much as it would suck for some people to not have children, I think quite a few men would rather not! Also, given the existence of this 'moon tea' which I oh so wish was real, that would basically mean that the men of NW could basically have a whorehouse at Castle Black and it wouldn't mean a damn thing.

[Erudain]

your watch ends when you die.

period.

1. Even if the Wall falls down, the Night's Watch will continue to exist

2. he is not dead, and if he dies, he will not be resurrected; and even if he's resurrected as a human being, that doesn't release him from his duties

3. if he's legitimized as Lord Of Winterfell, it's up to him, and he won't leave the NW; he didn't do it when Stannis asked; as Mormont said: are you a man of the Night's Watch, or a bastard boy who wants to play at war?

1. Well if the Wall "literally" falls down over Castle Black...they will cease to exist (a.k.a...they would get squashed :laugh: )

2. True. No loophole just say "fuck this" and done with it.....loyalty should work both ways, you have to be loyal to the NW...but the NW should also be loyal with you.....and since they weren't...

3. When Stannis offered it he asked for the heart tree and weirwoods on WF to be burned as a term. It's different with Robb will because there are no "but..."