Why the Sympathy?

[Lyanna Stark]

The problem isn't that she made one hate comment. The problem is we know she's been moaning about Jon for years, if we can believe mr. Blackfish amongst others.

That's pretty cold considering Cat was de facto his stepmother.

Considering the Blackfish was in the Vale, Cat could not "moan to him for years". However, the Blackfish was certainly aware of the affront it was to the Tullys that Cat had to live with Jon being at Winterfell. The Blackfish is politically savvy, so would not have a hard time figuring out the political consequences of Ned's extremely unusual treatment of Jon, and the possible connotations that would have for Cat's children.

However, you comment about Cat "moaning for years" to the Blackfish certainly shows that the opposition between Cat and Jon has been efficient due to this interpretation. Perhaps too efficient since Cat gets condemned for something that really is a non issue in Westeros, i.e. not being happy about a bastard born to her husband during their marriage being brought up alongside her own children. Apart from Walder Frey, who is generally regarded as uncouth, no other noble does this in Westeros. This emphasises Jon's unique position and how priviliged her was compared to other bastards.

So in that regard, the comments about Cat are interesting in that it clearly shows reader bias when it comes to interpreting and judging her actions.

The only sympathy you could have in Cat's actions is she was desperate and wanted her daughters back, but even she probably realized the odds were against her making the decision even more ludacrous.

And further complaints like this should really be put in the next Cat hate thread, since this is more a meta thread, IMHO.

[straits]

The only sympathy you could have in Cat's actions is she was desperate and wanted her daughters back, but even she probably realized the odds were against her making the decision even more ludacrous. She was gambling that the Imp, based on heresay from a house not known for their sympathy towards her house, would simply release the girls even though she knew he was every bit Tywin's son and seen how cunning he was. Apart from that he was perfectly willing to play dirty.

She was so desperate she even banked on the honour of knights (Cleos, Jamie) Sansa style, while she should've known better on how much that was worth.

The reader gets to read the consequences of her actions, but even Cat should've realized that they were giving up their only trump card left over the Lannisters, especially considering the low odds of succes and lack of coordination with the dwarf she was banking all her hopes on.

Sansa style :P

She's not my favorite character but I hope that by the end of tWoW, 'Sansa style' will no longer mean banking on the virtues of others.

[Kolantero]

I wouldn't say that Catelyn is portrayed negatively its rather that rereading the opening chapters of Tyrion and Arya you can see a lot of details put in to set those characters up as sympathetic. Catelyn is handled much more neutrally until the 'it should have been you' line which divides the impassioned Jon fan from the trueborn Catelynite ;). Catelyn's voice grows increasingly melancholic, she also quite business like too which, I feel, preserves a certain distance between her and the reader. In terms of reader expectation I would say that she is dealt with like that because of the Red Wedding, a bit of everything can and will get worse and also because of her final madness as she keeps her word to Robb.

I don't think that GRRM just sits down and writes. Characters are written to enhance or contrast with their narrative arcs.

Agreed, I don't dispute that Tyrion, Arya (and Jon) are written at least somewhat more sympathetically than other characters or that this is deliberate (at least on some level) from Martin's part.

But i do think that what is suggested in this thread (and other threads), that Martin is somehow "unfair" towards his characters, tricking or guiding his readers to like some of them or that he somehow "struggles" to make some of them more sympathetic because he likes them, is kinda unfounded imo.

If he was really so hell-bent on doing that he could just changed the way some events played out.

[jons nissa]

The only sympathy you could have in Cat's actions is she was desperate and wanted her daughters back, but even she probably realized the odds were against her making the decision even more ludacrous. She was gambling that the Imp, based on heresay from a house not known for their sympathy towards her house, would simply release the girls even though she knew he was every bit Tywin's son and seen how cunning he was. Apart from that he was perfectly willing to play dirty.

She was so desperate she even banked on the honour of knights (Cleos, Jamie) Sansa style, while she should've known better on how much that was worth.

The reader gets to read the consequences of her actions, but even Cat should've realized that they were giving up their only trump card left over the Lannisters, especially considering the low odds of succes and lack of coordination with the dwarf she was banking all her hopes on.

i don't know...

this act of cat's is the one i'm most sympathetic about. what parent wouldn't try anything and everything to save their children? i admit it was a long shot but i think she had come to think of tyrion as a fair person and felt she could count on him to keep his word. i think tyrion would have however tywin was a whole other matter. yes, it was a desperate act but it was completely understandable, imho.

[Scipio Africanus]

However, you comment about Cat "moaning for years" to the Blackfish certainly shows that the opposition between Cat and Jon has been efficient due to this interpretation. Perhaps too efficient since Cat gets condemned for something that really is a non issue in Westeros, i.e. not being happy about a bastard born to her husband during their marriage being brought up alongside her own children. Apart from Walder Frey, who is generally regarded as uncouth, no other noble does this in Westeros. This emphasises Jon's unique position and how priviliged her was compared to other bastards.

A misconception I feel as there were of bastards serving as men-at-arms at courts, some rising to even knights and beyond. Just take Aurane Waters or Ramsay Snow for example.

Yes it was rare that bastards rose high in rank but then again it was rare period what people like LF did. Westeros isn't a high socially mobile society. If you were born into a station you generally got stuck there it seems to me.

Bastards were often treated with contempt it is true, but they weren't slaves or constantly mistreated either.

It doesn't give you the right to project your fears onto a bastard and dislike/hate him for it, seems to me.

ps yes I realize the Blackfish may have deliberately trash talked about Jon for ulterior reasons, but I thought Cat had sent Brynden letters "complaining" about him.

i don't know...

this act of cat's is the one i'm most sympathetic about. what parent wouldn't try anything and everything to save their children? i admit it was a long shot but i think she had come to think of tyrion as a fair person and felt she could count on him to keep his word. i think tyrion would have however tywin was a whole other matter. yes, it was a desperate act but it was completely understandable, imho.

She wasn't just a parent she was a mother to a monarch who was currently at war because the father of the son she was holding had waged war on her ancestral lands. That's something different. She was a statesman and not just thinking about her own family but of her country.

Yes of course I understand why she did it but considering the low chances of succes, the lack of coordination with Tyrion, the reputation of the Lannisters and (what she absolutely knew) the consequences for Robb and his image, I say it's borderline insane.

[Lyanna Stark]

A misconception I feel as there were of bastards serving as men-at-arms at courts, some rising to even knights and beyond. Just take Aurane Waters or Ramsay Snow for example.

Yep, and how many of those were fostered together with trueborn children? We've debated this to death in the past, and the answer is one: Walder Frey's offspring, no other.

Hence the discussion on whether Cat is stupid or Jon Snow not a unique snow flake wrt his bastard status should really be taken to a Cat discussion thread, and not be debated here since it is off topic.

[Elba the Intoner]

I think you've really hit upon something here about how the modern reader always wants to side with the under dog.

http://feministficti...rion-lannister/

"But Tyrion’s plotline is not only a subversion of “the handsome man is the hero, the twisted man is the villain.” It’s also a subversion of the entire concept that the underdog is the true hero. Although Tyrion is an interesting character, he is not always an admirable one, whatever he might believe. He’s also twisted and bitter on the inside. He deals with his own feelings of powerlessness by asserting his power and his superiority over others who are even more powerless, aka women. He is, despite his own feelings of benevolence, deeply misogynistic."

and this on

http://feministficti...-of-winterfell/

"

In last week’s Game of Thrones, Arya told Tywin Lannister that “most girls are stupid.” When we heard that line, were we supposed to think, “This is why Arya is awesome”? After watching The Prince of Winterfell, I can’t help but think that the answer is “yes.” While the books series presents a huge range of dynamic and well-developed female characters, the show writers seem determined to edit the story so that all stereotypically feminine women seem weak and worthy of disdain. Girls, like Arya, who fight to throw off femininity and become “one of the boys,” are the only ones who are really strong or worthy of respect.

Although some of the show’s changes to the story have been positive and potentially even improve on the novel, many edits in the last few episodes have reduced the series’ selection of varied, challenging female characters into cliches and walking confirmation of the idea that “most women suck.”

Wow that second link to the review of Prince of Winterfell was just incredible!! Thank you Voodooqueen. It really expresses perfectly a lot of my frustrations with the show the second season.

I also want to point out that there has been a similar discussion going on in the Pawn to Player thread which grew out of an analysis of the new app and particularly Sansa's description in the app which was extremely disappointing to say the least. It also seems to be promoting Sansa as some passive character who is only there to observe and have things happen to her. The description of the wedding with Tyrion focuses on how Tyrion seems to be feeling and ignores the fact that in the book the wedding is written from Sansa's perspective. The show is doing a better job of portraying Sansa than the app and that is saying a lot!

[straits]

i don't know...

this act of cat's is the one i'm most sympathetic about. what parent wouldn't try anything and everything to save their children? i admit it was a long shot but i think she had come to think of tyrion as a fair person and felt she could count on him to keep his word. i think tyrion would have however tywin was a whole other matter. yes, it was a desperate act but it was completely understandable, imho.

It was completely understandable for her to try get her daughters back at any cost. It was also completely understandable for Robb to refuse to release Jamie at any cost. That is why it is such a difficult situation. I'm sympathetic with what Cat did, but if Robb sabotaged her attempt to smuggle Jamie out, I would be sympathetic with that, too.

A 16 year old king releasing literally the second most valuable hostage in Westeros (save Tywin, and symbolically, Joffrey) would ruin him in the eyes of his vassals.

[Lion of Judah]

The problem isn't that she made one hate comment. The problem is we know she's been moaning about Jon for years, if we can believe mr. Blackfish amongst others.

That's pretty cold considering Cat was de facto his stepmother.

Cat projected her fears onto Jon and made him into a walking timebomb of a threat, which we later see is completely unfunded.

But should this inspire negative feeling for Cat based on the above? Her comment made me root for Jon even though he didn't make on me a great first impression. But it didn't inspire negative feelings either, because we saw her pretty much get a nervous breakdown over Bran's "accident", so I think we can forgive her saying something she shouldn't have.

She's wrong about Jon but other then that, I don't find much to fault her later on during the Wot5K.

If Martin intended me to be negative on Cat because of the above I guess it didn't work on me.

Same, I question some things about her, but her actions never conjure up resentment for me. I actually think she is one tough woman, one of her more appealing qualities IMO. Her actions after Ned's execution was what won me over, she didn't need a crutch to mourn her husband, she didn't loose her wits, she remained strong and steadfast. Tossed a wrench into any notion of being the helpless widow and I loved that.

[jons nissa]

She wasn't just a parent she was a mother to a monarch who was currently at war because the father of the son she was holding had waged war on her ancestral lands. That's something different. She was a statesman and not just thinking about her own family but of her country.

Yes of course I understand why she did it but considering the low chances of succes, the lack of coordination with Tyrion, the reputation of the Lannisters and (what she absolutely knew) the consequences for Robb and his image, I say it's borderline insane.

It was completely understandable for her to try get her daughters back at any cost. It was also completely understandable for Robb to refuse to release Jamie at any cost. That is why it is such a difficult situation. I'm sympathetic with what Cat did, but if Robb sabotaged her attempt to smuggle Jamie out, I would be sympathetic with that, too.

A 16 year old king releasing literally the second most valuable hostage in Westeros (save Tywin, and symbolically, Joffrey) would ruin him in the eyes of his vassals.

you both make valid points and i am by no means excusing what cat did. yes, she was the mother of a monarch but at this time, and so many others, i believe cat was a mother first and foremost. that influences much of what she does and was completely behind her not thinking this scenario through to the possible outcomes. she was indeed acting in desperation since she believed she'd just lost bran and rickon.

[DrunkSister]

We can discuss whether Cat was justified in her treatment of Jon/letting Jaime go for days and still won't reach an agreement.

What is not disputable is that Cat is not as well liked as Tyrion, or Arya (to name just two) and their actions can be ripped apart in similar fashion. Yet majority of readers still liked Tyrion better (before he killed his father and Shae).

So the real question is why. Is it in the way they are written? Or is it in the way they are read? (in what we, as readers, bring with us when we read the books).

I am not accusing anybody of 'disliking Cat' or 'liking Tyrion/Arya'. Those are our personal feelings and opinions and we have the right to them. I am just interested in the reasons behind them.

[jons nissa]

What is not disputable is that Cat is not as well liked as Tyrion, or Arya (to name just two) and their actions can be ripped apart in similar fashion. Yet majority of readers still liked Tyrion better (before he killed his father and Shae).

So the real question is why. Is it in the way they are written? Or is it in the way they are read? (in what we, as readers, bring with us when we read the books).

it seems as if this thread supports both, which is completely logicial. there have been posts that lists specific things she says and does that focus on what is written and the tone it is written in as well as where it is placed in the story. likewise, there have been just as many posts stating that it is a personal connection that they respond to such as being a mother like cat.

there is no one reason why people feel the way they do about a character.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I think you've really hit upon something here about how the modern reader always wants to side with the under dog.

http://feministficti...rion-lannister/

"But Tyrion’s plotline is not only a subversion of “the handsome man is the hero, the twisted man is the villain.” It’s also a subversion of the entire concept that the underdog is the true hero. Although Tyrion is an interesting character, he is not always an admirable one, whatever he might believe. He’s also twisted and bitter on the inside. He deals with his own feelings of powerlessness by asserting his power and his superiority over others who are even more powerless, aka women. He is, despite his own feelings of benevolence, deeply misogynistic."

and this on

http://feministficti...-of-winterfell/

"

In last week’s Game of Thrones, Arya told Tywin Lannister that “most girls are stupid.” When we heard that line, were we supposed to think, “This is why Arya is awesome”? After watching The Prince of Winterfell, I can’t help but think that the answer is “yes.” While the books series presents a huge range of dynamic and well-developed female characters, the show writers seem determined to edit the story so that all stereotypically feminine women seem weak and worthy of disdain. Girls, like Arya, who fight to throw off femininity and become “one of the boys,” are the only ones who are really strong or worthy of respect.

Although some of the show’s changes to the story have been positive and potentially even improve on the novel, many edits in the last few episodes have reduced the series’ selection of varied, challenging female characters into cliches and walking confirmation of the idea that “most women suck.”

Bolded for emphasis. This is why I keep recommending Julia Serano's "Whipping Girl" (available for Kindle!) which is an in-depth exploration of why so many people are prejudiced against traditionally feminine attributes. It really really bothers me that "acceptable" fantasy heroines have to be the spunky ass-kicking types who are set apart from the majority of stupid, feminine, girly girls. And I say this as a fan of Arya, Asha Greyjoy, and Meera Reed, as well as Catelyn and Sansa. There are a huge, huge range of female characters in the series. ASOIAF is about as far from "no women's land fantasy" as one can get - and it's one of the reasons I love the series so much.

I just get bothered by so much of the attitude that Arya is somehow better than Sansa because she's a spunky tomboy; and perhaps if GRRM finds her easier to write, or likes her character better, this shows through and influences some readers.

Re Arya's and Sansa's respective intellects: In her first POV chapter, Arya states that the only thing she is better at than Sansa is math. Sansa is better than her at reading and writing. Thinking about it, I find it gives me pause as math is traditionally a "masculine" skill; it would have been more subversive to have feminine, girly Sansa be great at math.

ETA for correct book title.

[Winter's Knight]

Arya is better at sums not math. She specifically mentions household accounts. Similarly, I am very good at maths-calculas, algebra-but dismal at keeping accounts.

Arya is actually shown to be good at what was considered to be the feminine side of mathematics: basic arithematic and household accounts.

[Lummel]

...I also want to point out that there has been a similar discussion going on in the Pawn to Player thread which grew out of an analysis of the new app and particularly Sansa's description in the app which was extremely disappointing to say the least. It also seems to be promoting Sansa as some passive character who is only there to observe and have things happen to her. The description of the wedding with Tyrion focuses on how Tyrion seems to be feeling and ignores the fact that in the book the wedding is written from Sansa's perspective. The show is doing a better job of portraying Sansa than the app and that is saying a lot!

Interesting, because everybody can see, in fact it is indisputable, that GRRM could have written those chapters entirely from Tyrion's POV, or indeed as he did during the battle of the blackwater had many short chapters cutting between the two POVs. It could have been interesting to have had the chapter from Tyrion's POV, but GRRM clearly chose not to. And wouldn't the impact have been different if it had been from Tyrion's POV?

[DrunkSister]

This is why I keep recommending Julia Serano's Femiphobia (available for Kindle!)

I can't find it. Is this the actual name of the book? I can only find "Whipping Girl" and "Trans/Love". :dunno:

ETA It's "Whipping Girl"

[straits]

I can't find it. Is this the actual name of the book? I can only find "Whipping Girl" and "Trans/Love". :dunno:

Promising titles :drunk:

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I'm so sorry, I shouldn't post on just one cup of coffee - the Serano book is indeed Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity. "Femiphobia" is what Serano calls the phenomenon. Sorry for the confusion! It's a great book and I think relevant to many of the discussions on women in ASOIAF in particular and fantasy in general.

[straits]

I think Tyrion is written to be a likeable character but I don't like him. Something about him is too transparent (i tend not to like central characters so hearing that he is the author's avatar, which is something I suspected but wouldn't go so far as to purport, might explain it). I feel that while many characters give perspectives on an issue or work with another character to tell two sides of a story Tyrion is more of a vehicle for us to get into the world. He is written sympathetically despite his deformity and we can relate to him from a modern perspective because of his confrontations with prejudice, plus he is witty, funny, and lucky. But as the books go on I find myself liking Tyrion less and less. In a Dance with Dragons my impression of him was a man who has lost everything and is pining for "what could have been" with a former lover (and never will). He is really quite selfish and narcissistic. And by the end of ASOS and during ADWD I would add, pathetic.

I think calling him a vehicle translates your dislike of the character onto a meta-analysis of him which is false. The entire storyline in King's Landing is strong evidence against Tyrion mainly being a vehicle into the world. If anything, he and Cat are the prime movers of the story, with her capturing him, his manipulation of the clans and later the defense of the castle during the battle of Blackwater. Everything he does, and all of his reactions to others' plots against him, causes massive reverberations through Westeros.

Imagine if Sansa were suddenly declared to be simply a vehicle :P

[Castel]

you both make valid points and i am by no means excusing what cat did. yes, she was the mother of a monarch but at this time, and so many others, i believe cat was a mother first and foremost. that influences much of what she does and was completely behind her not thinking this scenario through to the possible outcomes. she was indeed acting in desperation since she believed she'd just lost bran and rickon.

Cat doesn't get to be a mother first and foremost any more than Robb gets to be a boy or brother or Ned gets to be a father. You're a so-called noble, with your job comes certain responsibilities. Do them. when you don't, people get killed.

Bolded for emphasis. This is why I keep recommending Julia Serano's "Whipping Girl" (available for Kindle!) which is an in-depth exploration of why so many people are prejudiced against traditionally feminine attributes. It really really bothers me that "acceptable" fantasy heroines have to be the spunky ass-kicking types who are set apart from the majority of stupid, feminine, girly girls. And I say this as a fan of Arya, Asha Greyjoy, and Meera Reed, as well as Catelyn and Sansa. There are a huge, huge range of female characters in the series. ASOIAF is about as far from "no women's land fantasy" as one can get - and it's one of the reasons I love the series so much.

I just get bothered by so much of the attitude that Arya is somehow better than Sansa because she's a spunky tomboy; and perhaps ifGRRM finds her easier to write, or likes her character better, this shows through and influences some readers.

To be fair I think it has less to do with demonising "girly" women that it did with showing that women could be y'know, good at "masculine" things. And since there's a huge action movie and fantasy market this just...persists.

I also don't see how Arya, Asha and Meera Reed are set apart from the "stupid, girly, girls" girls like Margaery are anything but stupid. They simply use different tools.