danm_999 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 A partial assessment, literally - it ends when Barristan's story (in the novels) has barely begun. Barristan himself notes that it was his dismissal from the KG that woke him up to what he had become, after all. He changes his perspective rather firmly as a result.I'm kinda skeptical of someone who only realizes that they have severe moral reservations about their job the second they're fired from it.Barristan is not a bad man, certainly. But he lacks that moral compass we see in characters like Ned Stark and Davos Seaworth, who are willing to do what they believe is right even if it costs them everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 A fair point. I'm still musing over switching to Daenarys. The rabid Stannis fan crys in my heart "Treason! Treason!". But I do appreciate that he watched her to make sure she was good and is being honest about how shit her father was.Err two kings died on his watch. I'll admit there's little he could have done for Aerys. But he didn't really do well protecting Robert. Both in the sense of diving on the Boar and in trying to protect him from his enemies at court.I never said he was a servant of the Baratheon dynasty :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Whine Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I'm kinda skeptical of someone who only realizes that they have severe moral reservations about their job the second they're fired from it.Barristan is not a bad man, certainly. But he lacks that moral compass we see in characters like Ned Stark and Davos Seaworth, who are willing to do what they believe is right even if it costs them everything.I think his morality just didn't trump his honor/vows. Once he was released from his vows he gave up an easy retirement to do what he felt was right. A relatively old knight choosing to travel in secret to the other side of the known world to seek his long lost rightful queen versus taking a castle and some small folk to serve him until death? Not the easy way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I think his morality just didn't trump his honor/vows. Once he was released from his vows he gave up an easy retirement to do what he felt was right. A relatively old knight choosing to travel in secret to the other side of the known world to seek his long lost rightful queen versus taking a castle and some small folk to serve him until death? Not the easy way out.It's not really the easy choice for Selmy, since the idea of retirement itself is anathema. He opposes Joffrey's offer as "a hall to die in, and men to bury me", and says "I am a knight. I shall die a knight." He wants to die serving as a member of the Kingsguard. We see in ADWD this is a man haunted by the idea that soon he'll become too feeble to fight, and has had his whole life defined by his service in the Kingsguard.To lose that purpose is what Barristan Selmy fears that more than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imbs Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 If he were a Jackbooted thug I think we would have seen him defile his honor in more visceral ways - like say; participating in the Sansa beat downs or being contented with a land grant and retirement (self serving needs) and not caring about the dishonor his dismissal entailed.How do we know he wouldn't though? If I recall correctly he was booted off the kingsguard before he had the chance to participate in any Sansa beatings. There is a strong argument there that, if ordered by the king, Barristan Selmy would indeed have beat Sansa at least in the early stages of the story. Selmy shares Ned's tendency to put honor/duty before any kind of sense after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 To me Barristan is a little of both because I don't see how the two are exclusive toward each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 How do we know he wouldn't though? If I recall correctly he was booted off the kingsguard before he had the chance to participate in any Sansa beatings. There is a strong argument there that, if ordered by the king, Barristan Selmy would indeed have beat Sansa at least in the early stages of the story. Selmy shares Ned's tendency to put honor/duty before any kind of sense after all.This one is a good question. I am inclined to beleive he wouldn't have beat Sansa. I think he would have gone to Tywin or Cersi. If Tywin told him to beat sansa....then maybe he would have done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grip Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 [....]Then as Lord-Commanders of the Kingsguard he spent the next 15 years doing a most perfunctory job. None of the Kingsguard are loyal to him or Robert and one is an overweight disgrace. He doesn't join Jon Arryn or Stannis Baratheon's confidience as they tried to protect Robert.It would be interesting to know how much influence Ser Barristan had as LC over who was allowed to join the KG, and his thoughts about his new brothers. I can well imagine that between Jon Arryn, Robert/Cersei and possibly Ned he didnt have much to say or atleast didnt speak up. Can he be blamed for the new KG which replaced Aerys fabled seven? Considering that so many positions needed to be filled its not like there were many great candidates around. Also we dont know about the loyalty of Robert's KG during the first years. I wouldnt be surprised if they were indeed loyal at first but some of them later on shifting their loyalty to Cersei. Blount is big boned and only becomes overweight later in the books, I can imagine that during the Rebellion he was in better shape. He seems to be a strong man, he must have been more formidable at the time (if never truly great, as Jaime says). I am not sure Barristan is the best suited as LC, since he does seem to be afraid of conflicts not involving swords (a trait he shares with Robert). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Given that he argued against Dany's assasination, I think it unlikely he'd have beaten and humiliated Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lea Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I'm kinda skeptical of someone who only realizes that they have severe moral reservations about their job the second they're fired from it.I definitely agree with the OP and I agree with this too. It's one thing if he had an epiphany while he was still in office, maybe when he learned the Targaryen children had been killed and Elia raped, or perhaps at the moment where Cersei tore Robert's will (wouldn't that have been exciting) but after he was given the boot and humiliated before the court...? It is just terribly convenient.I have no respect for Barristan. He may be a good fighter but as a knight (that is, someone who is supposed to help the helpless, be noble, etc) he is a complete disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Given that he argued against Dany's assasination, I think it unlikely he'd have beaten and humiliated Sansa.He just supported Ned in saying that they shouldn't assassinate Dany. If Ned hadn't been there, I don't see him speaking up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I definitely agree with the OP and I agree with this too. It's one thing if he had an epiphany while he was still in office, maybe when he learned the Targaryen children had been killed and Elia raped, or perhaps at the moment where Cersei tore Robert's will (wouldn't that have been exciting) but after he was given the boot and humiliated before the court...? It is just terribly convenient.I have no respect for Barristan. He may be a good fighter but as a knight (that is, someone who is supposed to help the helpless, be noble, etc) he is a complete disgrace.“Some septa trained you well. You’re like one of those birds from the Summer Isles, aren’t you? A pretty little talking bird, repeating all the pretty little words they taught you to recite.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I have no respect for Barristan. He may be a good fighter but as a knight (that is, someone who is supposed to help the helpless, be noble, etc) he is a complete disgrace.Is it fair to judge him for this though? Which knights actually do those things, other than the BwB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lea Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 “Some septa trained you well. You’re like one of those birds from the Summer Isles, aren’t you? A pretty little talking bird, repeating all the pretty little words they taught you to recite.”Excuse me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Is it fair to judge him for this though? Which knights actually do those things, other than the BwB?Who for the most part aren't actually knights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Who for the most part aren't actually knights They are. A knight can make knights and they've all been knighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lea Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Is it fair to judge him for this though? Which knights actually do those things, other than the BwB?Well, don't get me started on the BWB. Probably my least favourite bunch of people in the series. If Dayne, Whent and that other knight were helping Rhaegar, and it certainly seems they were, at least they were doing something. Jaime, for all his many faults, did kill Aerys and the pyromancers.My problem with Barristan is that he seems to think he's a "true knight" (and so do plenty of readers) but in fact he's just like every other hypocritical knight out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Excuse me?“No, it gives me joy to kill people.” His mouth twitched. “Wrinkle up your face all you like, but spare me this false piety. You were a high lord’s get. Don’t tell me Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell never killed a man.”“That was his duty. He never liked it.”“Is that what he told you?” Clegane laughed again. “Your father lied. Killing is the sweetest thing there is.” He drew his longsword. “Here’s your truth. Your precious father found that out on Baelor’s steps. Lord of Winterfell, Hand of the King, Warden of the North, the mighty Eddard Stark, of a line eight thousand years old . . . but Ilyn Payne’s blade went through his neck all the same, didn’t it? Do you remember the dance he did when his head came off his shoulders?”Knights are trained soldiers who kill for position and money. Not Lancelot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Well, don't get me started on the BWB. Probably my least favourite bunch of people in the series. If Dayne, Whent and that other knight were helping Rhaegar, and it certainly seems they were, at least they were doing something. Jaime, for all his many faults, did kill Aerys and the pyromancers.My problem with Barristan is that he seems to think he's a "true knight" (and so do plenty of readers) but in fact he's just like every other hypocritical knight out there.That's fair enough about Barristan.What's so bad about the BwB though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Pope Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Not Ser Barristan. Dany. She is well intentioned but her outcomes are somewhat less positive.Then please tell me what good will EVER come out of Stannis rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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