Barristan Selmy, True Knight or Jackbooted Thug?

[Independent George]

King's Men will do ;)

The Antler Men.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Somewhere in between. I think he's a fundamentally decent person who nonetheless isn't nearly as honorable or righteous as he thinks. For all the talk about seeking the "true Targaryen heir" or however he puts it, he only did so because Joffrey sacked him and he can stick it to the Lannisters by going to Dany. He didn't stop Joffrey from having Sansa beaten or cutting Ned's head off; he only "found religion," so to speak, when he himself was personally affronted.

[Lion of Judah]

He is a good knight when it suited him best, I do not argue he prowess as a swordsman and I won't venture as far as to call him a coward. But his past actions contradict his sworn oaths.

[Dolorous Nedd]

He is one of my favorite characters. Dany made the right choice keeping him. He was 100% loyal to both Aerys and Robert.

[jarl the climber]

Somewhere in between. I think he's a fundamentally decent person who nonetheless isn't nearly as honorable or righteous as he thinks. For all the talk about seeking the "true Targaryen heir" or however he puts it, he only did so because Joffrey sacked and he can stick it to the Lannisters by going to Dany. He didn't stop Joffrey from having Sansa beaten or cutting Ned's head off; he only "found religion," so to speak, when he himself was personally affronted.

At one point. I think its when he is Interogating Drink and Ser Yronwood, he thinks "I've spent half my life serving drunks and madmen." I think his respect is for the office not the men he has served. His service stems from the oath he has taken. He did not break his vows, Joffrey released him from them. He admits to Dany that he would still be there in all likeyhood if he had not. I do not think he has ever had blinders on. He admits that his famous rescue of Aerys was probaly a mistake and it would have been better if he had died and Rhaegar had ruled.

As far as his role of a councilor goes, he seems like he would have voted with the Stannis/Jon Arryn block in the small council.(he did not become Lord Commander til Robert). We judge his effectiveness as an advisor to Dany on its own merits. He has been inneffectual it seems to me. He seems hampered by the Ser Granfather label. On the other hand he has become the person Danys followers have rallied around in her absence. So in a time of crisis he is a person you can trust he just hasn't had good kings to serve.

[Dolorous Nedd]

Somewhere in between. I think he's a fundamentally decent person who nonetheless isn't nearly as honorable or righteous as he thinks. For all the talk about seeking the "true Targaryen heir" or however he puts it, he only did so because Joffrey sacked him and he can stick it to the Lannisters by going to Dany. He didn't stop Joffrey from having Sansa beaten or cutting Ned's head off; he only "found religion," so to speak, when he himself was personally affronted.

I have never seen you make a mistake...until now!

He was canned by Joffrey before the day Ned had his head off.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I have never seen you make a mistake...until now!

He was canned by Joffrey before the day Ned had his head off.

Fair enough.

If that's the only mistake you can catch me making, that's pretty damn good on my part. :P

[Dolorous Nedd]

Another thing to Selmy's credit is he was the only one on the Small Council who stood behind Ned in stating it was wrong to have Dany and her baby killed. I think it's a huge reach to say he isn't a fundamentally good man.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Another thing to Selmy's credit is he was the only one on the Small Council who stood behind Ned in stating it was wrong to have Dany and her baby killed. I think it's a huge reach to say he isn't a fundamentally good man.

Pretty sure I did say he was a fundamentally good man.

[Dolorous Nedd]

Pretty sure I did say he was a fundamentally good man.

Yeah...That wasn't directed at you. I have a bad habit of doing that.

[Lion of Judah]

Another thing to Selmy's credit is he was the only one on the Small Council who stood behind Ned in stating it was wrong to have Dany and her baby killed. I think it's a huge reach to say he isn't a fundamentally good man.

I will give you that, at his core he is a decent man. He just took the wrong turn at some crucial crossroads in his life and he regretted that later on.

[MagnusPrime]

Barristan Selmy is a True Knight who knew what he was. The vows one says to become a knight are just like the stories that Sansa so loved. In reality during peace a knight is able to follow his vows perfectly especially if his lord and master is a good and just man. But in Barristan's case 2 (maybe 3) kings were men who only put stains upon his cloak and vows.

Judging Barristan's inactivity so harshly while serving Aerys is myopic to understanding his situation. He was not a secret service agent serving the president of a democratic nation! He is a knight sworn to serve the king on the Iron Throne, a man who is the absolute power in the land, whose word is law. The Kingsguard is sworn to protect their king with their lives not sit in judgement of them. Could they have sought to intervene by having the crown prince or Hand try to cam the king down? Maybe. But there was no guarantee Aerys would listen.

As others have said the characters in this story are more human because of their faults but it would seem that some readers are forgetting to place the actions of the characters in the correct context. They keep placing modern moral standards upon characters who exist in a time and culture entirely different from ours.

Barristan swore a vow before his gods. He does not break his vows. I admire him for that. Everything else was out of his hands. Those who say otherwise are not understanding his position.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Barristan Selmy is a True Knight who knew what he was. The vows one says to become a knight are just like the stories that Sansa so loved. In reality during peace a knight is able to follow his vows perfectly especially if his lord and master is a good and just man. But in Barristan's case 2 (maybe 3) kings were men who only put stains upon his cloak and vows.

Judging Barristan's inactivity so harshly while serving Aerys is myopic to understanding his situation. He was not a secret service agent serving the president of a democratic nation! He is a knight sworn to serve the king on the Iron Throne, a man who is the absolute power in the land, whose word is law. The Kingsguard is sworn to protect their king with their lives not sit in judgement of them. Could they have sought to intervene by having the crown prince or Hand try to cam the king down? Maybe. But there was no guarantee Aerys would listen.

As others have said the characters in this story are more human because of their faults but it would seem that some readers are forgetting to place the actions of the characters in the correct context. They keep placing modern moral standards upon characters who exist in a time and culture entirely different from ours.

Barristan swore a vow before his gods. He does not break his vows. I admire him for that. Everything else was out of his hands. Those who say otherwise are not understanding his position.

Well, there is a second set of vows. "Protect the innocent, uphold justice". Something Barristan shat upon when they conflicted with the KG vows. Yes, it's a very difficult situation and choice, but in my opinion he chose the wrong set of vows.

[ab aeterno]

The Antler Men.

That's just what we call our agents in other camps...

[Castel]

That always bugged me that he never did anything when Cersie tore robert's final words.Sure he was dead but it was signed by him and he was king before he died so he should have honored Robert's wishes.

What is he going to do? No, really. What is he going to do? Barristan is a glorified thug. What is he going to do?

[MagnusPrime]

Well, there is a second set of vows. "Protect the innocent, uphold justice". Something Barristan shat upon when they conflicted with the KG vows. Yes, it's a very difficult situation and choice, but in my opinion he chose the wrong set of vows.

Name the innocent parties he was supposed to protect? Then tell me how exactly he was supposed to protect them? And do not bring up the wildfyre plot because we do not know if he even knew of it.

The King is the absolute authority and he swore a vow to protect the king. Could he have protested? Maybe but when Aerys started committing these horrible acts he was a paranoid, pyromaniac, who would not listen to reason. Maybe he should have committed seppeku as a form of protest since a Kingsguard serves for life. But then all we would have is a dead Barristan.

It wasn't like Aerys had him killing peasants and babies. He didn't even bloody his hands with the deaths of those Aerys had killed. Rhealla....I don't know what he or anyone could have done outside of getting Rheagar to step in.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

For most of his life, Selmy was both. He followed orders and would have done whatever the current king wanted. He would have hated it, but he would have beaten Sansa if he had stayed on the KG.

Being a "decent man" makes him no less of a thug when he was willing to do whatever he was ordered to.

That said, late ADWD this may have changed.

[corbon]

I've been thinking about Barristan "The Bold" Selmy for a while now. During my first read through he was always a likeable character but with every re-read I've begun to lose all my respect for him.

He served in Aery's Kingsguard blindly. Facilitating an absolute monster.

Except that Aerys was quite a decent king for a long time, then slowly turned paranoid, but still not a bad king. Then he suddenly did some crazy stuff, but stuff that was mostly within his rights, and was in response to a treasonous (verbal) attack on the royal family. After that its too late, the realm needs stability and the rebellion dealt with before anything else.

Besides, its not his place to judge the king and everybody thinks that. The last time a Lord Commander judged the royal family there was a deadly civil war.

Which gets me to the next point. Jaime "served [Aerys] well. When serving was safe", but at least Jaime actually switched sides. Barristan fell in battle (I'll give that he was serving when it was dangerous) to wake up on Robert's side. All he needed to do was swear an oath.

But Jaime didn't switch sides. Not many would have blamed him if he did, probably,. Jaime murdered the man he had vowed to protect by stabbing him from behind.

Jaime broke his vows and by the commonly held standard of he day, acted very wrongly. Society judged him for that. We know the mitigating factors, but no one else does.

Barristan in contrast held to his vows in difficult cirumstances and was held up as an exemplar by those he fought against because of this. His society judged him, and pronounced him 'good'.

Then as Lord-Commanders of the Kingsguard he spent the next 15 years doing a most perfunctory job. None of the Kingsguard are loyal to him or Robert and one is an overweight disgrace. He doesn't join Jon Arryn or Stannis Baratheon's confidience as they tried to protect Robert.

Who says it was perfunctory. He may have done an excellent job for the first dozen years. He is not to blame for the appointees to the KG, the King chooses them - the best men were all used up, and many of the remaining ones would have been uninterested in the job as there would no doubt have been a supply of lands and castles to go around for the victors. Blount was a decent Kg in his day, just his day has past - KG serve till death, so no doubt there have een decrepit old men in the KG before, let alone fat and out-of-shape older ones.

He barely helps Ned Stark when he comes. He objects to the murder of an unborn child. But unlike Eddard he doesn't have the moxie to back it up. Then he does nothing when the deceased King's will is completely dishonoured. Or when Ned Stark is executed.

Its not his job to help Ned Stark, who is just another functionary. Its certainly not his job to dispute the King's will, once he has put forward his POV as a councillor.

I'll give you the will thing. IMO he was a bit stunned by events and was vacillating, unsure what to do, when Cersei played him like a flute. A mistake. One he regrets, probably. He makes no claim to perfection.

Ned Stark's execution was also nothing he could do anything about and it is ridiculous to blame him for 'allowing' that. It wasn;t the plan, it was sudden and public and it was legal - Ned had admitted treason and the penalty for that is death.

He then serves Joffrey even though he's a nasty piece of work. FINALLY he doesn't even quit, he has to be fired before he leaves the Kingsguard.

He swore a vow and serves till death. He doesn't get to butt out just because he doesn't like it anymore. No KG has ever quit - it literally isn't legal to do so.

It's my opinion that Barristan Selmy is the sort of person who'd wind up in the Hague claiming he was "just following orders".

The difference is that he did what his entire society considered to be the morally right thing. And revered him for it. His society's version of the Hague would give him a medal.

What are your thoughts on the man?

He does a difficult job to the best of his ability.

He sometimes has some very hard choices and doesn't always get them right, to his regret. Sometimes there wasn't even a right choice to be made.

[GallowsKnight]

That's just what we call our agents in other camps...

Martyrs each and everyone of them.

[Scipio Africanus]

Well, there is a second set of vows. "Protect the innocent, uphold justice". Something Barristan shat upon when they conflicted with the KG vows. Yes, it's a very difficult situation and choice, but in my opinion he chose the wrong set of vows.

One of the main themes of the series is what people do when vows are conflicting with each other (we will get this thrown in our faces once we learn more what happened to Brandon and Rickon Stark, and how Barristan and Gerold Hightower reacted on that).

I'm pretty sure though it isn't in the anointed vows to let people cook in their own armour while their kin is set up to strangle himself trying to save the other.

What we can learn about Barristan (and aparently, Gerold Hightower) is that they rank their vows. Their first duty was the king and all else is was ranked as less.

I do agree with the statement made in the above, that Barristan is the kind of guy who likes his office more then the people he serves. He also doesn't strike me as particulairly intelligent. Not Big Vic dumbness, a step above that, but also not exactly a Tyrion let alone a LF or a Varys.