Barristan Selmy, True Knight or Jackbooted Thug?

[ab aeterno]

Rickard Stark was more than likely a very good fighter maybe not in the same league with Dayne or Selmy but there is no guarantee that he would have lost, in single combat anything could happen when both fighters know what they are doing . Brandon Stark versus a member of the Kingsguard would have been amazing to see.

Hopefully in the next book we will get more POVs from Barristan and maybe learn more about what happened in the past.

I don't know that there is anything to suggest that Brandon or Rickard were any better than average fighters. Given the esteem and abilities of Aerys KG is seems that almost any of them would win easily. When Jaime Lannister is arguably your worst swordsman you're pretty well set.

[Daenerys is my queen]

I think Barristan is a good knight. Too good in fact. He does follow orders because that's his job . He's the Kingsguard. He can't question the king even if he wants to. He's no Jaime. And I don't mean that in an insulting Jaime kinda way. I mean that in a Jaime is naturally more of a rebel than Barristan kinda way. I think that, like every character in the series, he's made some mistakes and is now learning from them. He gives good advice to Dany and is loyal to her as a knight should be. I am sure that he will continue to be a good knight in future books. I only hope he doesn't die before the end of the series. I think I would cry. I've really grown fond of him. (:

[Blackfish Tully]

I don't know that there is anything to suggest that Brandon or Rickard were any better than average fighters. Given the esteem and abilities of Aerys KG is seems that almost any of them would win easily. When Jaime Lannister is arguably your worst swordsman you're pretty well set.

I would be careful putting too much stock in the esteem of the Kingsguard, like somebody posted earlier they are chosen as much for political reasons as for their fighting ability. I do not know about Rickard but I do remember reading somewhere that Brandon was supposed to be a fantastic swordsman.

[Fearsedge]

sure it's his job and he deserved to be executed for running away but I can still feel sorry for him. I would feel sorry for the firefighter who lost his nerve and ran away but he would still need to be fired.

Also, Gared could have warned the NW about the Others, instead he ran away, leaving his brothers in danger. This is 100% oath breaking even if you consider that he saw the WW.

I am not disputing that the man abandoned his brothers, when he should have warned them. I am not saying he didn't deserve the execution just based on that. What I do have a problem with is saying that it was his job to fight the Others and leave it at that. Comparing the situation to a firefighter running from fire is far too simplistic. If it was the only firefighting squad in all the land, and only had stories from 8000 years ago that said there was once fire to fight that not many believe in the first place it would be closer to the situation here. Again, I'm not saying Ned is in the wrong or that the poor guy didn't neglect his duty, but cmon, this is not black and white, very little in ASOIAF is.

EDIT I meant to quote the post blackfish was replying to there.

[Eucratides_Megas]

A fair point. I'm still musing over switching to Daenarys. The rabid Stannis fan crys in my heart "Treason! Treason!". But I do appreciate that he watched her to make sure she was good and is being honest about how shit her father was.

As a rabid Stannis fan, I take it as a given that Barristan would have no problem serving in Stannis's kingsguard. He finally had the opportunity (probably the first in his life) to choose the monarch he would serve till their death or his. He already knew Stannis and Renly. He never even considered serving Robb Stark, but Robb was never trying to sit the Iron Throne so didn't really merit consideration. The only unknown quantity was Daenerys, a girl whom he knew absolutely nothing about. I think he went to her to finally decide which one he would offer his service to.

That said, I think Daenerys became his final choice because the redemptive quality of once again protecting the Targaryens whom he had failed tipped the scales in her favor. He saw her as Rhaegar reborn, and longed to serve under her the way he never got to under Rhaegar.

[Viserys_The Transformed]

Barristan reminds me of Bhisma in the story of Mahabharata.

Bhisma is eldest of the reigning dynasty. He has sworn himself to celibacy for the sake of ruler.

Bhisma knows the wrong-ness of the ones on the throne, but he has sworn to protect anyone who is on the throne.

The persons on the throne, are the villains doing injustice with their cousins. And , when war finally breaks out, Bhisma has to unwillingly fight against the right people with his full strenght. He does his duty.

Another, sexy thing here is that Bhisma was given a boon from his own father for sacrificing his own happiness for the others, that Bhisma could decide when to die.

Bhisma's death was in his own hands. He finally leaves the body when the rightful heir comes on the throne. A bit like Connington, eh ? :)

[mormont]

As a rabid Stannis fan, I take it as a given that Barristan would have no problem serving in Stannis's kingsguard.

Events suggest otherwise.

As you point out, he knew Stannis. And yet he didn't go to Stannis. Maybe you're right that he would have, if Daenerys had turned out to be more like her father. But clearly, Daenerys was Barristan's first choice, his best hope. That suggests he was less than keen on Stannis as King.

I don't think we ever see Barristan even reflect on the notion that he might have chosen Stannis, do we?

[Viserys_The Transformed]

He began as Kingsguard with Targaryens, so he returned to the last remaining Targaryen.

He saw Joffrey as Baratheon and thus saw Stannis' claim as not good enough. And he is not a thinker who thinks things out much in detail.

He simply followed a simple reasoning: Find the true ruler (Targaryen, because he was freed from Cersei, and he bagan with Targs)

[Quiet Isle]

I can understand why you think that, and I agree. But as long his chosen religion is intolerant, I doubt there will be much stability, at least for a long while.

He also had his brother killed. and cheated doing it. I don't hold Stannis up as any fine specimen of nobility. Once on the throne he may add stability, but he is not to be trusted imho. Having said that I wouldn't want anyone on that throne. Except Jon, later in his maturity.

[Barristan the G.O.A.T]

Barristan is the perfect soldier. He does what he is told and well follow his orders to a fault at times. He is the ultimate tool, but he is the greatest tool that ever lived. He's not the type of man who likes to think for himself. He follows orders, that's the type of man he is and in his line of duty that is the man you would most want serving you.

[Eating My Wings]

Events suggest otherwise.

As you point out, he knew Stannis. And yet he didn't go to Stannis. Maybe you're right that he would have, if Daenerys had turned out to be more like her father. But clearly, Daenerys was Barristan's first choice, his best hope. That suggests he was less than keen on Stannis as King.

I don't think we ever see Barristan even reflect on the notion that he might have chosen Stannis, do we?

On multiple occasions it's hinted that Barristan's loyalty lies with the Targaryens. Well, Daenerys is a Targaryen, isn't she?

[Mumatil]

He's the ideal kingsguard, a man who only cares about keeping his vowes and protects and obeys without second thought. These are the ideals that are encouraged and admired in his society and as a result he enjoys great respect from everyone. Jamie on the other hand thinks for himself and is troubled by what is part of something that is admired in modern society but not the medival so he gets despised for it.

This thread actually is pretty damn good, raising these kind of points.

I've usually been in the selmy is a "white knight" character, but the comparison defiately gives me a new outlook on him.

kudos, for whoever made tis thread, have me something to reread on my next run.

Most of these threads are usually shit and trying to compare with The Prince or sound intellectual. But this actually got me to reconsider a character.

[Naathi Prince]

The biggest problem with Ser Barristan is touched on here, the other Kingsguard don't respect him, and do not listen to him. It was likely very difficult when you are dealing with the likes of Ser Meryn Trant, Ser Boros Blount, and Ser Mandon Moore, but its a key part of the job of a Lord Commander. I doubt that the White Bull had these problems with his men.

[Nictarion]

True knight. One of the only in the story.

[Theda Baratheon]

Thug? NO.

[Silverin]

I don't think barristan is a thug, but I definietly has not much respect for him.

As others said he never left Joff or either of the Kings before on his own free will.

Lets see: Aerys burns Rickard, Brandon and a lot of different Lords as well, who came with Brandon and Rickard, orders the death of two teenagers who did nothing wron (Ned and Robert). Barristan stais compeletly loyal...

Robert, he never punished the death of Elia, Aegon, and Rhaella. He ordered the death of Dany. While Barristan did talk out for the later, he again never left.

Joffrey: He is aware that it should be Ned who is ruling. Not Cersei with Joffrey...

And even after all he still decides to want to serve some wannabe ruler.

Dany: orders the death of males who wear tokar and are older than 12 years old. Orders the torture of an innocent girl, in order to get information from her father who very possibly knows nothing. Refuses to listen to him about her family.

Honestly I don't see anything reedeming and improvment in his character when it comes to his decision to serve Dany either. Since I see Dany as someone on the way to become a tyrant as well.

[Father of Dragons]

Err two kings died on his watch. I'll admit there's little he could have done for Aerys. But he didn't really do well protecting Robert. Both in the sense of diving on the Boar and in trying to protect him from his enemies at court.

Had he saved Robert from the boar, the king wouldn't have realised his life was at risk; and thus Robert would at the very least threaten him for treason and for not following orders