Who's more to blame, Aerys or Rhaegar?

[Lion of Judah]

I think Aerys actions are to blame for everything that transpired, you can only put up with a 'Mad King' for so long. Rhaegar didn't help the situation any, if anything he gave those against Targaryen rule even more ammunition for their cause.

[corbon]

Everybody seems to be ignoring that we don't know whether Rhaegar and Lyanna contacted anyone, or tried to.

Rhaegar's principal failures were:

1. Taking too long to act on Aerys. Maybe Varys scuppered him at Harrenhal, who knows. Either way, Rhaegar took longer than was helpful to take steps to make himself Prince Regent and remove Aerys from effective power. Reminds me of that adage about how all that is needed for evil to flourish is for good people to sit idle.

Three points.

First, Aerys wasn't that bad before. He was increasingly paranoid and all, but until the trial of Brandon Stark he hadn't actually done anything really crazy and worthy of being deposed.

Second. deposing the king is a really really bad precedent to make for the new king. It needs to be really thoroughly warranted and widely acclaimed.

Third, Aerys was still the king, still had support of most of the realm (even after the crazy stuff starts he still has support of half the realm!) paranoid and not stupid. If Rhaegar was to do anything it had to be done very very carefully, all correctly and within the legal boundaries and be widely supported. The indications are that he was starting to gather support (not starting to act) for the future.

Summary: actually Rhaegar should not have acted earlier. He had neither solid reason nor support. The shit basically hit the fan all at once at the worst possible time for him, and once it did the rebellion needed to be dealt with and order restored before doing something as unsettling as removing and replacing the king.

2. Whatever happened with Lyanna. If he abducted her, that was... not good. If she eloped with him, his dropping off the grid didn't do anything to help matters.

But it should have. If they go public then the Starks and/or Baratheons have a target they can do something about - whether its a formal complaint that could see the couple broken up (Aerys distrusts Rhaegar, and chose his first wife remember) or a foolish rescue attempt in which someone gets killed, and there is no going back from there.

With no targets, the only action Rickard can take is to talk to Aerys (who probably agrees with him). While people are talking things can still be sorted out.

But Brandon ruined everything with his incredibly stuipd and selfish and irresponsible actions.

I really can't blame him. Prince or not, that's his baby sister, and his actions prove to me he absolutely assumed the worst had been going on or he wouldn't have acted so drastically. Imagine someone had kidnapped your sister, disappeared off the grid. Now imagine that man is above the law, he's the fucking crowned prince and heir to the throne. Are you just going to sit back and see how things pan out, or are you going to rush to save your sister from what you imagine to be her being used and abused. I honestly cannot blame Brandon for anything he did, he was acting as an older brother, and influential person should act. Like someone said about that one proverb, "all it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing." Or whatever it is.

First, you simply cannot just take the law into your own hands. If someone kidnaps your sister you don't get to just go haring after the guy you think might have done it (on what evidence?) with a flamethrower. You just don't. You especially don't when he's the crown prince and its treason, punishable by death to attack him.

Yes, there are things you can do. But what Brandon did was reckless, stupid and inflammatory, and worse, see the second point.

Second, Brandon made no effort on Lyanna's behalf. Sure, we all know (or think we do, me included) that he went to KL because of her abduction, but he made no effort to find her, to ask about her, even to call for her return (as far as we know, from an unbiased eye-witness).

He didn't stand outside the gates and yell "give me back my sister" and then "Rhaegar, you must pay for what you have done".

Nope, he just rode up with a bunch of companions and demanded the crown prince come out and die. Thats treason, gross stupidity, and does nothign toward the return of his sister.

Note that their are indications at Harrenhal that Lyanna may have had something of a crush on Rhaegar, and Brandon must have known both this and that she was none to impressed by being forced to marry Robert.

What it smacks of is an arrogant (and he has many reasons to be arrogant) showpony, upset not about his sister but about the insult to his house).

As best we can tell from the facts we have.

Note also that fiery Brandon lost to Rhaegar at the Harrenhal tourney, so may also have a personal dislike of the melancholy silver prince.

The worst of it?

Its not even heat of the moment. Brandon must have had days, even weeks, to consider his course of action and words before he got to KL.

Frankly I make the 'fault' (ie who did the 'wrong' things the worst and made irrecoverable actions) about 67/33 Brandon/Aerys.

What Rhaegar did should have worked out fine, with some upset people, sorted out with some words and some lands/keeps/titles changing hands.

What Brandon did was stupid, had no chance of any positive result, and was irrecoverable - at that point someone has to die, baring leniency from the King.

What Aerys did was mad in its execution, but Brandon was guilty of a death penalty offense and Rickard had the right to call trial by combat. Leniency might have been the wise course, but not the required course. The execution of that trial though, was insane and calling for Ned and Robert's heads was the final step too far that caused war.

[Fire Eater]

Aerys, since it wasn't until he had the Stark party killed that the war began. No one was seeking to start a war before then. I reserve judgment for Rhaegar until I get the whole story.

[Jon Icefyre]

I think that Rhaegar's actions shortly before and during the rebellion are some of the strongest evidence we have against R + L = J. If we know the Targaryens are polygamous and that Rhaegar married to Lyanna would have produced a legitimate heir, why would he go to all the trouble to kidnap her, risk angering Robert Baratheon and Rickard and Brandon Stark (very powerful lords), when instead he could have brokered some sort of deal, I. E., he gets Lyanna, Eddard explains to Robert that Lyanna would never had wanted him, Rhaegar finds a suitable bride for Robert, everyone goes home happy. We can conclude one of several things:

1. Jon is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna. Rhaegar was acting out of lust and concealed a marriage knowing that his father was nuts and his actions would lead to war. This doesn't fit with the narrative we have or Rhaegar and is probably untrue.

2. Jon is not Rhaegar's legitimate son. Even if he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, Rhaegar and Lyanna were not married, therefore, Jon is still a bastard.

3. Rhaegar was as crazy as his father and just wanted to stick Lyanna with the pointy end. Nothing came out of it and Lyanna died of wounds he had given her during his crazy times, similar to Rhaella's wounds by Aerys. Rhaegar was obviously stronger and delivered deeper wounds.

4. Something else entirely.

Aerys was crazy insane, we know that.

You should know by now to never post things that in any way, shape, or form say or insinuate that it's a 100% fact that Jon Snow was not the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. As we do not for sure what the deal is with that just yet, and there are numerous people on this board that have the opinion that he could very well be legitimate. We don't know if he is or he isn't only time will tell my friend.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Rhaegar and Aerys are equally to be blamed.

Rhaegar cause the whose thing. If he hadn't kidnapped/eloped with Lyanna, Brandon wouldn't have to go to KL...

Aerys for murdering Brandon and Rickand and demanding Ned's and Robert's heads.

[Danelle]

As much as I like Rhaegar, there is always the matter of Aerys. Rhaegar did not approove of the creature that his father had become, but he took action when it was too late. Varys had warned Aerys that his son planned to unite the lords against him and this is why he went to the tourney at Harrenhal. Rhaegar was charismatic, influential and loved by the commoners and highborn alike. Yet he tolerated Aerys' behaviour and most importantly Varys. Rhaegar could have paid more attention to his duty towards the realm and tried to control his father.

[mcb]

Easily, Aerys. Rhaegar did kidnap Lyanna (or at least that's how it appeared to the world). But in response, neither the Starks nor the Baratheons did call their banners. Brandon, hothead as he was, went to King's Landing with only a handful of companions, clearly not having a war in mind. The situation was still contained by then, and it could end (relatively) peacefully. Only after Aerys raised the stakes, the shitstorm that started with Rhaegar evolved into a continent-wrecking hurricane.

Rhaegar caused a scandal. Aerys started a war.

[therealbando]

Rheagar started a fire and Aerys, instead of putting it out, made sure it grows...

[Sullen]

I think Aerys, Rhaegar, and Brandon all share an equal part of the blame.

[Lady Shadow Cat]

I'm a fan of the Southern Ambitions theory, so I have to blame Aerys.

Aerys' behavior being so erratic was already leading towards the Civil War. The fact that Ned was fostered with the Arryns, Lyanna was engaged to Robert, Brandon was engaged to Catelyn, and (at least for a bit) there was talk of marrying Lysa Tully to the Lannisters suggests that the major houses were already forming a powerful block to contest Aerys' position on the throne. The question was whether or not that alliance would have sought to overthrow the entire dynasty. While Rhaegar did kidnap/run-away with Lyanna, and that started the ball rolling towards Aery's inevitable overreaction and the Rebellion - Rhaegar wasn't responsible for the way Aerys reacted, and he wasn't responsible for the incredible show of force that the Rebels were able to muster because THEIR plot to rebel started before Lyanna was kidnapped.

A point many people forget and I agree.

Everybody seems to be ignoring that we don't know whether Rhaegar and Lyanna contacted anyone, or tried to.

Three points.

First, Aerys wasn't that bad before. He was increasingly paranoid and all, but until the trial of Brandon Stark he hadn't actually done anything really crazy and worthy of being deposed.

Second. deposing the king is a really really bad precedent to make for the new king. It needs to be really thoroughly warranted and widely acclaimed.

Third, Aerys was still the king, still had support of most of the realm (even after the crazy stuff starts he still has support of half the realm!) paranoid and not stupid. If Rhaegar was to do anything it had to be done very very carefully, all correctly and within the legal boundaries and be widely supported. The indications are that he was starting to gather support (not starting to act) for the future.

Summary: actually Rhaegar should not have acted earlier. He had neither solid reason nor support. The shit basically hit the fan all at once at the worst possible time for him, and once it did the rebellion needed to be dealt with and order restored before doing something as unsettling as removing and replacing the king.

But it should have. If they go public then the Starks and/or Baratheons have a target they can do something about - whether its a formal complaint that could see the couple broken up (Aerys distrusts Rhaegar, and chose his first wife remember) or a foolish rescue attempt in which someone gets killed, and there is no going back from there.

With no targets, the only action Rickard can take is to talk to Aerys (who probably agrees with him). While people are talking things can still be sorted out.

But Brandon ruined everything with his incredibly stuipd and selfish and irresponsible actions.

First, you simply cannot just take the law into your own hands. If someone kidnaps your sister you don't get to just go haring after the guy you think might have done it (on what evidence?) with a flamethrower. You just don't. You especially don't when he's the crown prince and its treason, punishable by death to attack him.

Yes, there are things you can do. But what Brandon did was reckless, stupid and inflammatory, and worse, see the second point.

Second, Brandon made no effort on Lyanna's behalf. Sure, we all know (or think we do, me included) that he went to KL because of her abduction, but he made no effort to find her, to ask about her, even to call for her return (as far as we know, from an unbiased eye-witness).

He didn't stand outside the gates and yell "give me back my sister" and then "Rhaegar, you must pay for what you have done".

Nope, he just rode up with a bunch of companions and demanded the crown prince come out and die. Thats treason, gross stupidity, and does nothign toward the return of his sister.

Note that their are indications at Harrenhal that Lyanna may have had something of a crush on Rhaegar, and Brandon must have known both this and that she was none to impressed by being forced to marry Robert.

What it smacks of is an arrogant (and he has many reasons to be arrogant) showpony, upset not about his sister but about the insult to his house).

As best we can tell from the facts we have.

Note also that fiery Brandon lost to Rhaegar at the Harrenhal tourney, so may also have a personal dislike of the melancholy silver prince.

The worst of it?

Its not even heat of the moment. Brandon must have had days, even weeks, to consider his course of action and words before he got to KL.

Frankly I make the 'fault' (ie who did the 'wrong' things the worst and made irrecoverable actions) about 67/33 Brandon/Aerys.

What Rhaegar did should have worked out fine, with some upset people, sorted out with some words and some lands/keeps/titles changing hands.

What Brandon did was stupid, had no chance of any positive result, and was irrecoverable - at that point someone has to die, baring leniency from the King.

What Aerys did was mad in its execution, but Brandon was guilty of a death penalty offense and Rickard had the right to call trial by combat. Leniency might have been the wise course, but not the required course. The execution of that trial though, was insane and calling for Ned and Robert's heads was the final step too far that caused war.

Yeah, you pretty much summed it up.

[Prince of the North]

Yeah, I agree that Rhaegar, Aerys, and Brandon all share some responsibility but I do believe things could have been salvaged up until Aerys executed Rickard and Brandon.

[mattah84]

Aerys Targaryen gets most of the blame in my book, and then Brandon Stark and Rhaegar both share some of the blame. Brandon went to KINGS LANDING and was trying to challenge the KING'S SON, definitely not to smart. And Rhaegar ran off with the daughter of the most powerful lord in the North, who was already betrothed to his cousin Robert Baratheon. However, King Aerys pulled the dirtiest stunt of all three of them. Rickard Stark chose a Trial by Combat, and Aerys didn't give him anybody real to fight. Aerys chose Fire as Rickard Stark's combatant and burned him to death. Rhaegar probably would not have allowed that to go down. So while Rhaegar and Brandon Stark definitely get some of the blame, I think that Aerys gets most of it.

[The Dragon King]

Aerys.

Rhaegar kicked off the whole chain of events but it would not have come to war if Aerys hadn't killed the Starks and called for the deaths of Robert and Ned. They would have been able to get away with kidnapping Lyanna if he hadn't done that, it would have been diplomatically uncomfortable but it likely wouldnt have come to war.

[TalalOfDorne]

Yes Rhaegar took Lyanna, but even so the war could have still been prevented had Aerys not kill Rickard and demanded Robert and Neds heads. So I have to say Aerys.

[Im no Ser]

As Corbon noted, we don't actually know if Rhaegar and Lyana attempted to contact anyone. I've always been fond of the theory that the Maester conspiracy Marwayn refers to destroyed a message to interfere with the birth of the PTWP and a return of magic.

I also agree with everyone that's noted Brandon Stark's role here. It is not reasonably foreseeable that Brandon would stroll into the Red Keep and demand the head of the crown prince, an act that can really only end one way. This was a gift wrapped present to Aerys, who wanted to undermine what he (and I) believed was his son's attempt to initiate a coup with the Tully-Arryn-Stark alliance.

Lastly Rhaegar and Lyana need to present this to all parties as a fait accompli. If Aerys - not Robert or his allies - learns of it beforehand he will block the marriage, which he will (rightly) perceive as a threat to his own rule.

[jon stark I]

It is simple.Brandon uses harsh words but actually he is demanding a trial by battle.This is all Rhaegars fault.There is no ifs because it all starts with Rhaegars actions.If Brandon did't go to KL or if Aerys didn't kill Rickad and Brandon those are not important what is important is someone who kidnaps a nobles Daughter is punishable by death or the Wall.

[Wales338]

Aerys was mad. While I in no way am excusing his actions, Rhaegar should have realized that he shouldn't do anything which could even lead to Civil War if his father had been sane. Im not saying that the Civil War did start there, but it could have very easily have started right then and there beforeAerys murdered Rickard and Brandon. Add an unstable monarch to the mess, things were guaranteed to get ugly.

[mattah84]

It is simple.Brandon uses harsh words but actually he is demanding a trial by battle.This is all Rhaegars fault.There is no ifs because it all starts with Rhaegars actions.If Brandon did't go to KL or if Aerys didn't kill Rickad and Brandon those are not important what is important is someone who kidnaps a nobles Daughter is punishable by death or the Wall.

I don't know man. Rhaegar definitely initiated things when he ran away with Lyanna, but had Aerys not burned Rickard Stark alive instead of giving him a real trial by combat, let Brandon Stark strangle himself trying to save his father, and called for Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon's heads, there probably wouldn't have been the war that there was.

If Aerys had kept Rickard and Brandon alive, and didn't call for Eddard and Robert's heads, it might not have come to war. It definitely would have been uncomfortable as Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, but the banners may not have been called like they were. Rhaegar definitely gets a decent amount of blame for it all, but I think Aerys really went to far and got what he deserved for it.

[Top Notch Balanter]

Whatever about Aerys being mental and Rhaegar being a fool and Brandon being too hot blooded we all forgot the main reason for the rebellion Lady Whent

Now to defend my choice. Lady Whent decided that in honor of her brother and her house she would throw a massive Tourney/Feast at Harrenhall and Harrenhall is where all shit got crazy. First Jaime Lannister was knighted as a member of the Kingsguard and then sent back to KingsLanding. Then Rhaegar met Lyaanna something went down. Ned also befriended Howland Reed at Harrenhall and Rhaegar ended up winning the Torney which really fucked shit up. Also Ned meeting Ashara Dayne could have been avoided if not for Harrenhall

Therefore the blame lies mainly with Lady Whent

[jon stark I]

I don't know man. Rhaegar definitely initiated things when he ran away with Lyanna, but had Aerys not burned Rickard Stark alive instead of giving him a real trial by combat, let Brandon Stark strangle himself trying to save his father, and called for Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon's heads, there probably wouldn't have been the war that there was.

If Aerys had kept Rickard and Brandon alive, and didn't call for Eddard and Robert's heads, it might not have come to war. It definitely would have been uncomfortable as Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, but the banners may not have been called like they were. Rhaegar definitely gets a decent amount of blame for it all, but I think Aerys really went to far and got what he deserved for it.

Again there was noway for Starks to let it go.Rhaegar had to be trialed either way.Even if Lyanna went willingly he committed a crime against Starks.There are two ways to solve this problem either they kill him or they send him to the wall.Look at this as a RPG.For example Skyrim.If you don't escapre from Helgen then you can't play the rest of the game.Or like in LOTR if Sauron didn't create the ring then there is no story.By kidnapping Lyanna Rhaegar starts a chain reaction.What Brandon did was wild but he was right he demanded Rhaegar to face him because it is how he was raised.If Rhaegar appeared after Lyanna and he runaway then maybe Brandon could learned the truth from him.But he never appears until Trident.Aerys is crazy I can't blame him I blame the people who let him stay on power.