Who's more to blame, Aerys or Rhaegar?

[Jon Icefyre]

This is one of those arguments where every effect can be traced back to a previous cause. Therefore, I'm going to go with Tywin :) Tywin had been Aerys' hand for 20 years, and although he might have had the right to suggest Cersei as a bride for Rheagar, if he had truly been loyal, he would not gone back to casterly rock because of that rejection.

Aerys went through 3 hands after that, so I would argue that his paranoia and sudden lack of good judgement stemmed from the loss of Tywin as a hand, and that happened because Tywin valued family above the realm.

He didn't leave just because of the rejection. He left also because Aerys accepted Jamie into the KG as a diss to Tywin by taking away Tywin's heir to Casterly Rock, and what made it even more obvious that it was a slight to Tywin was the fact that Jamie was too young to even be in the KG at that specific time. By accepting Jamie into the KG Aerys made Jamie the youngest KG member ever, so it was pretty clear Aerys had a hidden motive behind naming Jamie to the KG which was to piss off Tywin. So I really don't blame Tywin at all for leaving Aerys, I do however blame him for the sack of KL which in my mind washes away any slight Aerys might have caused him. Tywin is burning in the deepest of the seven hells right now.

[Fetch me a block]

Yep and that confidence only rises by the day so deal with it....Sorry but based on the fact that you said earlier that Rhaegar "probably raped Lyanna" I doubt you have a stronger alternative theory.

I do not have a stronger alternative theory, but you have clearly been given full access to all of GRRM's future ASOIAF notes so it is all good.

[Fetch me a block]

If I was the abducted sister, I would expect that the person doing something about it would actually use their tiny brain and contact those who would be in a better position to act, as well as choose a way that wouldn't put him into an even bigger shit (treason) than I was in. Also, I'd much appreciate if the person showed some care about my well-being, as, IMHO, getting their beloved sister released should be a priority over killing the offender. If any of these were not possible, I'd at least expect them to check if the offender was at home beforehand.

Seriously: there were quite a few things which Brandon could have done which definitely wouldn't have ended up with him imprisoned and murdered.

Brandon was an angry man and to some extent a silly one, but it is clear that Brandon was in the right.

[Fetch me a block]

Bran wasn't there. He is simply passing along what was told to him.

And who would have told him? I'll tell you who. Ned Stark. Or someone in the Stark household who would only have said it with Ned's permission.

[Fetch me a block]

Aerys is completely to blame. If he doesn't kill the Starks perhaps Rhaegar could have worked something out with Rickard and Robert to appease them for what happened with Lyanna. Especially since imo Lyanna went by choice so she could explain that to her father. Then all Rhaegar would have to do is make it right with Robert.

That is an extremely dubious claim.

[Ygrain]

Brandon was an angry man and to some extent a silly one, but it is clear that Brandon was in the right.

So, if your sister gets kidnapped and raped and you go vigilante, your actions are OK? I'm afraid not, and that's what Brandon did - while justifiably angry, he broke the law, and that without seeking any alternative route first. Plus, add to it his predominant concern with killing Rhaegar instead of demanding that Lyanna be returned at once - while this may be a response to kidnapping, it does not exclude mere hurt pride at the besmirching the Stark name by seducing Lyanna.

And who would have told him? I'll tell you who. Ned Stark. Or someone in the Stark household who would only have said it with Ned's permission.

I find that implausible. Bran was a child; the information he received from Ned would have been filtered, exactly as Catelyn never learned the details about Brandon's fate until Jaime told her. Furthermore, add how information is being filtered to Bran when Ramsay/Reek is caught after chasing and raping the peasant girl in the woods - he knows they did something terrible but not details, and the word rape is not mentioned (at least in my translation, I may be wrong here).

On the other hand, consider what the Westerosi know about the whole affair:

- Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QoLaB, causing a minor scandal

- Rhaegar is responsible for Lyanna's disappearance which is labelled as abduction

- Lyanna is found at a remote secret location guarded by Rhaegar's knights

What other conclusion can anyone arrive at but that Rhaegar wanted her for sex, and since she was supposedly abducted, it was non-consensual on her part? With this logical version already planted in the people's minds, Ned has no reason to deter from it, which would only cause people to wonder about the whole thing and perhaps get thoughts about Jon.

You are wrong. Brandon acted the way he did because he thought that his sister was being raped. Also in GOT while telling the story of tombs in winterfell to osha, Bran flat out said that Rheagar kidnapped and rapped Lyanna:

So can we bury this myth about lyanna not being raped by rheagar?

See above.

Plus, a couple of points:

- the supposed rapist calls the place where he kept his victim "Tower of Joy"?

- the victim's brother holds her responsible for her fate (her wolf blood led her to an early grave)?

- the victims brother draws a comparison between her betrothed and the rapist, in favour of the rapist?

Forgive me if I find these instance absolutely incompatible with the rape version.

[Chaircat Meow]

We don't know enough about the assumptions everyone was making at the time to come to a fair judgment.

For one, we don't know what exactly happened between Aerys and Rickard. The king put Rickard on trial but what did he accuse of him of? The charge might have been failure to control his son, or it could have been related to that and rumours that he and other nobles were conspiring against Aerys. Once Richard was put to death a demand might have been sent to Arryn, not out of complete madness, but because his loyalty was also intensely suspect and he was expected to raise his banners anyway given the deaths of two Starks. Maybe the government thought he would fold, as it were, to some bullying and just misjudged ...

No information ...

[The Storm Queen]

I´d actually say Aerys is more to blame for causing the whole mess while Rhaegar is the one with the greater responsibility.Technically Aerys and his action caused the most damage but at the same time to me his responsibility is limited by his incapability to make a sane, rational choice.

Rhaegar on the other is said to be extremly intelligent, educated and we do not hear of him being as batshit insane as Aerys. So Rhaegar had the capacities to connect the dots and predict a possible worst-case scenario of his actions.

[NedStark2013]

I am wondering if Ned kinda new Lyanna was gonna elope with Rhag and likely knew for I have the feeling Lyanna was closest with Ned. Its odd in a sense that Cat was intended for Brandon Stark. Which seems like Brandon had a bit of a rage problem. I however think Aerys was a time bomb and really I figure Tywin Lannister might have been in Rhags ear and may have stirred these whole events to get Aerys out of power and get rid of a few Starks along the way.

[mcb]

I don't think a deal could have ever been brokered. It's against all the religions in Westeros but the Greyjoys.

It depends on how Lyanna looked at it. If she was indeed held against her will, then an agreement would be next to impossible, with polygamy, religion etc. pretty much irrelevant (had Rhaegar been single at that point, it wouldn't help him much). If, however, she herself wanted to be Rhaegar's second wife, then the old gods probably could be appeased, after substantial concessions to the Starks and Bob.

There were numerous legitimate causes for rebellion, but I don't remember anyone ever giving a shit about Targ polygamy.

[Rheagar Prime]

aerys last time i checked its him jon arry called his banners against when he asked for robert's and ned's heads not when rhaegar took lyanna. Hell even her father didn't do much when he heard he just went to get and son and we all know how that turned out to be.