R+L=J v. 36

[Zupoleon]

@ipsuel, Eddard and Ashara were in love though. Also I'm not sure about the subsequent timing if Brandon was involved with Ashara.

All we know is that a shy Ned had a crush on Ashara at Harrenhal, and that Brandon threw him a bone and got Ashara to dance with him. Nothing that says Ned and Ashara were in love. Considering that Brandon was the ladies man, if Ashara was hooking up with a Stark, I'd say Brandon would be the (much) more likely...

[Dr. Pepper]

Ashara seems to be a very popular and somewhat misunderstood character. I think an Ashara reread should be considered. It would be a long and tedious project, what with her handful of mentions in the entire text, but I'm hoping someone will take on this very important task.

jokes, jokes. Sorta.

[Old-Growth]

I know this sounds weird and 'out there' but when Sam is in Oldtown and they mention that Lord Hightower hasn't left his tower in years makes me wonder if he put the pieces together... I believe his son or brother was the LC of the KG at the time of the rebellion?

Well, the White Bull was a Hightower and kin to Lord Hightower, but the listing of the house in the appendix to AFfC does not show Ser Gerold, but only the sons and daughters of Lord Leyton. I'll guess that Ser Gerold Hightower was a younger brother of the current Lord Hightower.

[Old-Growth]

All we know is that a shy Ned had a crush on Ashara at Harrenhal, and that Brandon threw him a bone and got Ashara to dance with him. Nothing that says Ned and Ashara were in love. Considering that Brandon was the ladies man, if Ashara was hooking up with a Stark, I'd say Brandon would be the (much) more likely...

Because a lively young woman could never prefer the shy and silent type. Oh no never? Well, hardly ever.... And it is likely that she knew Brandon was betrothed to Lady Catelyn Tully. The Dornish are more liberal about such matters, but Ashara Dayne, from the little we know of her, does not strike me as a fool.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Because a lively young woman could never prefer the shy and silent type. Oh no never? Well, hardly ever.... And it is likely that she knew Brandon was betrothed to Lady Catelyn Tully. The Dornish are more liberal about such matters, but Ashara Dayne, from the little we know of her, does not strike me as a fool.

Gilbert & Sullivan? :laugh:

[Old-Growth]

Gilbert & Sullivan? :laugh:

Yes. Can't remember which opera, tho'.

Speaking of that sort of thing, where I am it is now the 16th of December. Happy Beethoven's Birthday to all. The local classical station is playing the Emperor Concerto as I type :laugh:

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Yes. Can't remember which opera, tho'.

HMS Pinafore.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ashara seems to be a very popular and somewhat misunderstood character. I think an Ashara reread should be considered. It would be a long and tedious project, what with her handful of mentions in the entire text, but I'm hoping someone will take on this very important task.

jokes, jokes. Sorta.

Do you need any help?

[Black Wolf Smith]

I wish people wouldn't put so much faith in "the app." It wasn't written by or edited by GRMM. Sure the guy asked GRRM questions, but without knowing what questions.... Yes it's probably right about 90% of what it states (like the contents of Robb's will, or that Rickon is at Skagos.) But those were things already almost spelled out in the text. (like that brienne yelled "Sword." It's fucking telegraphed to you, yet somehow there was a debate even after the last book came out.) In terms of things that aren't meant to be revealed yet, you can't expect GRMM to give the information out via an iPhone app.

I agree. It is like the appendix at the back of the book. It is a good tool, it adds a little info, but It states somethings as "facts" because some characters belief them to be true, not because they are true. The Appendix still say that Joff, Mycella, Tommen are Roberts children. GRRM is giving a few small nuggets, pieces of puzzles, and side points away, but anything that is truely important, that he hasn't already told us would not be in it.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I agree. It is like the appendix at the back of the book. It is a good tool, it adds a little info, but It states somethings as "facts" because some characters belief them to be true, not because they are true. The Appendix still say that Joff, Mycella, Tommen are Roberts children. GRRM is giving a few small nuggets, pieces of puzzles, and side points away, but anything that is truely important, that he hasn't already told us would not be in it.

Thank you!

[Ribupr]

This is probably a dumb question but i am curious to whether it can be disproved...

Is it possible Ned would have confided in Jon Arryn about it?

I ask because Jon Arryn comes across as an honorable and smart man. So I would think he would have figures it out on his own at some point. He knew Ned was a boy/man of honor, so cheating on Cat would have been a red flag. He probably knew the timeline and info pertaining to Lyanna, not to mention Rhaegar's infatuation with her. And that would have given Ned a backup plan if circumstances occured and a Targ was needed on the throne.

The reason I bring this up on this thread is because maybe Jon told someone else in his family that he trusted. And that could be how Jon Snow finds out. Especially because the Arryns have stayed out of the war.

[Black Wolf Smith]

This is probably a dumb question but i am curious to whether it can be disproved...

Is it possible Ned would have confided in Jon Arryn about it?

I ask because Jon Arryn comes across as an honorable and smart man. So I would think he would have figures it out on his own at some point. He knew Ned was a boy/man of honor, so cheating on Cat would have been a red flag. He probably knew the timeline and info pertaining to Lyanna, not to mention Rhaegar's infatuation with her. And that would have given Ned a backup plan if circumstances occured and a Targ was needed on the throne.

The reason I bring this up on this thread is because maybe Jon told someone else in his family that he trusted. And that could be how Jon Snow finds out. Especially because the Arryns have stayed out of the war.

Some secrets are to big to be shared with anyone. So I don't think he did.

[Ribupr]

Some secrets are to big to be shared with anyone. So I don't think he did.

Yeah thats probably true.

So how the hell did....Varys, Jon Arryn, Catelyn, Robert, Benjen, Tywin...not figure it out or come close. SOMEONE HAD TO KNOW other than Howland. That shits driving me crazy.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Yeah thats probably true.

So how the hell did....Varys, Jon Arryn, Catelyn, Robert, Benjen, Tywin...not figure it out or come close. SOMEONE HAD TO KNOW other than Howland. That shits driving me crazy.

IMO I don't think Ned told anyone much of anything, other wise someone would have caught him in a lie(he was bad at it). if anyone ask, said something like "he is of my blood, I am taking him home to WF" and little of anything else. Read my tag line, let people make up their own minds, and it would not even cross their minds.

[J. Stargaryen]

I used to think R+L=J deniers were the worst. Now I'm starting to think it's the anti-appers.

[Queen of Procrastination]

So how the hell did....Varys, Jon Arryn, Catelyn, Robert, Benjen, Tywin...not figure it out or come close. SOMEONE HAD TO KNOW other than Howland. That shits driving me crazy.

There are some speculations wether Benjen knows it. Some people believe that he knew R+L and helped Lyanna and later went to the wall because of guilt.

Regarding the others:

Yeah I think it is really strange that Varys doesn´t know it.

Dunno about Arryn

Robert must have believed that his friend fathared a bastard just like he did.

And all other people in the realm had probably more important things to do. We know that the South doesn´t really care about the North as long as their is no danger from the North.

Why spend your time thinking about Lord Starks bastard?

[Siralily]

Here's another question/s, and I apologize if it's been asked before.

Why exactly did Rhaegar take Lyanna away? Whether he stole...raped...fell in love with her earnestly, etc. Wasn't he married to Elia with two kids? Why did he feel the need to "cheat" on her this way. And why Lyanna? What was so special about her?

Thanks

[The guy from the Vale]

We don't exactly know. There are indications that there were prophecy reasons; Barristan remembers Rhaegar loved Lyanna, while he didn't love Elia (their marriage was arranged). Elia couldn't have any more children, and Rhaegar felt he needed another heir...

As for cheating, we don't know that either. We don't know if he discussed matters with Elia. There's also reason to believe Rhaegar married Lyanna (polygamy being legal for Targaryens).

And why Lyanna? Probably because he loved her. And not just because she was beautiful, but because she was a strong woman who had avenged her father's bannerman by defeating the knights whose squires tried to bully him. There might also be the prophetic/mythological connection of the Starks to Ice (similar to the Targaryen Fire), and he thought he needed her for the 'Song of Ie and Fire'.

All in all, that is only speculation so far, though.

[Siralily]

I see... although, when did we learn that she defeated the knights whose squires tried to bully him(him who?)? I don't recall reading that at the moment.

I do have to say that I believe Jon Snow is one part Stark, but I'm also inclined to think that R+L=J becomes a little obvious. Maybe too obvious? Perhaps GRRM has a better twist...

[niamh]

All we know is that a shy Ned had a crush on Ashara at Harrenhal, and that Brandon threw him a bone and got Ashara to dance with him. Nothing that says Ned and Ashara were in love. Considering that Brandon was the ladies man, if Ashara was hooking up with a Stark, I'd say Brandon would be the (much) more likely...

I'm sure we do. I read it two days ago! Unfortunately I can't remember in which POV it's situated, as every old fogey seems to have memories of the tourney at Harrenhal, and give us one piece of the puzzle at a time piecemeal.

That said I dug out the Selmy chapter, and nothing says at all that any Stark dishonoured Ashara.

Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter …

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

So she had eyes for Stark only (Brandon or Eddard), but a man dishonoured her, it could be anyone, willing or unwilling. Any intercourse out of wedlock is dishonour for a man like Selmy so we're none the wiser about that.