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R+L=J v. 36


Stubby

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I'm a little confused here, why do you think Ned is snobbish?

Ned knows his place and the place of everyone else in Westeros. While a good lord, not for him to bring up a common child as a trueborn noble. There are a number of places where this can be seen. Ned's (and Brandon) not one to upset the feudal apple cart, and in this, he and Catelyn understand each other very well.

Jon's status is the only thing they strongly disagree about, to the point that Ned got dangerously angry when Catelyn broached the subject.

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This is probably a dumb question but i am curious to whether it can be disproved...

Is it possible Ned would have confided in Jon Arryn about it?

I think he told Benjen

Here's another question/s, and I apologize if it's been asked before.

Why exactly did Rhaegar take Lyanna away? Whether he stole...raped...fell in love with her earnestly, etc. Wasn't he married to Elia with two kids? Why did he feel the need to "cheat" on her this way. And why Lyanna? What was so special about her?

Thanks

It's my belief that Lyanna is probably the one who stole Rhaegar away and not the reverse, so to speak. Lyanna is not a little mouse, she is exactly like Arya, she knew what she wanted.

Anyone got a quick answer as to why Ned never told Cat that R+L=J if thats the case? Theres no reason not to in my mind, it would save her grief and she wouldnt hate Jon so much

That's the lynchpin of the R+L = J theory, that simple knowledge of Jon's parentage means death for treason

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I see... although, when did we learn that she defeated the knights whose squires tried to bully him(him who?)? I don't recall reading that at the moment.

It is from the story about the Knight of the Laughing tree. Meera tells it to Bran in ASoS.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree

he crannogman found himself bullied by three squires, none older that fifteen-years-old. He had already "grown to manhood", however the boys were all larger than him in size. His only offensive weapon, a threepronged spear, was easily snatched away by his opponents. He was then thrown into the ground. His assailants repeatedly mocked him, shoved him, and kicked him. Help arrived in the person of Lyanna Stark ("the she-wolf"), who shouted indignantly that Reed was her father's bannerman. She beat off his attackers with a tourney sword, scattering them away. [

The little crannogman was Howland Reed Meera´s and Jojen´s father.

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But who would accuse them of treason if only they know. I wouldnt say Ned puts her in mortal danger by revealing the truth of R+L=J in a private conversation

You never know when someones listens. Varys has his little birds everywhere. Besides Catelyn´s anger kept Jon save. It was normal that she treated a bastard like this. It would have been suspicous if she would have treated Jon kind and friendly and if she would have liked that boy, of whom everone believed he was Ned´s bastard.

Better safe than sorry.

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While I see the many threads that discuss all of this (with plenty of replies), can someone breifly rule out and explain the other possibilities of Jon's mother being Ashara, Wylla, and any other popular potential candidates?

Sorry guys, I have no patience when it comes to reading 36 threads with 200+ replies each.

You can start with this at Tower of the Hand: http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

You'll have to change the Scope (how many books read) to A Dance With Dragons, but the theory is laid out there really well. There's an analysis somewhere on this site too, but I can't find it at the moment. It's also a good one.

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You never know when someones listens. Varys has his little birds everywhere. Besides Catelyn´s anger kept Jon save. It was normal that she treated a bastard like this. It would have been suspicous if she would have treated Jon kind and friendly and if she would have liked that boy, of whom everone believed he was Ned´s bastard.

Better safe than sorry.

hell yes, and knowing Catelyn* I wouldn't trust her with this type of information either. She is not a Stark at any rate, and a secret shared is no secret anymore, particularly a secret of that calibre, knowing what Robert does to Targaryens and especially those close to Rhaegar.

Frankly it's already a stain on Ned's character that he is even still friends with Robert after that horror with Elia and her children, he has no need to compound it with offering him another baby for the slaughter through carelessness.

But indeed, there's absolutely no other reason for Ned to not tell Catelyn, and as she, rightly I think, thinks, because Ned loved Jon's mother more than he ever loved Catelyn. Only two women fit the bill. One is Ashara who is now out of the reckoning, and the second one is his sister.

*Catelyn, like a good Tully only thinks in terms of her children and who is liable to claim their inheritance. Jon being R+L would be still a great threat in her mind to Robb, even more than being a bastard of an unknown mother. It would have been very unwise to tell her indeed

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You can start with this at Tower of the Hand: http://www.towerofth...ws_parents.html

You'll have to change the Scope (how many books read) to A Dance With Dragons, but the theory is laid out there really well. There's an analysis somewhere on this site too, but I can't find it at the moment. It's also a good one.

The analysis of the Tower of the Hand is exellent.

You find also closer information about R+L=J here:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents

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The analysis of the Tower of the Hand is exellent.

You find also closer information about R+L=J here:

http://awoiaf.wester...n_Snow/Theories

http://www.westeros....n_Snows_parents

Thanks Lady of Whisperers. I couldn't remember where it was.

Is it possible for the OP of these threads each time a new one is started, to tack these links so that newcomers can read up on the basic theories without having to read through 36+ threads for answers?

On the topic of how nobles treated bastards, I note that Joy Hill had a reasonably good situation within the Lannister family, good enough that Tywin arranged a marriage for her to the son of a bannerman who had done him a valuable service (and who was insulted but agreed to the match). It may be that raising bastards among trueborn children was unusual - at least in Catelyn's experience (her father killed Lysa's bastard in utero by forcing her to drink moon tea), but not so uncommon for bastard children to be cared for reasonably well among other noble families, apparently. I think what stuck in Catelyn's craw was that Ned refused to tell her about Jon's mother and she was jealous of the memory of a woman so precious to Ned that he wouldn't even disclose her identity to his wife.

As for why Ned refused to discuss the subject with Catelyn, there are a number of reasons that are equally plausible. In my opinion, he feared that any disclosure could mean ruin and possible death if Robert ever learned about it through the grapevine. He knew that he could trust Howland Reed - who was pretty reclusive and intensely loyal to Ned and especially Lyanna. Wylla, the servant who conspired was probably paid handsomely, and would have had reason to keep her mouth shut anyway lest she be singled-out as a co-conspirator in the "treason" against King Robert. Had she known, Catelyn may have demanded that Jon be sent away for the safety of our own children. Ned had a promise to keep, and apparently, wanted to keep Jon close to protect him from the scrutinies of others.

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Ashara seems to be a very popular and somewhat misunderstood character. I think an Ashara reread should be considered. It would be a long and tedious project, what with her handful of mentions in the entire text, but I'm hoping someone will take on this very important task.

jokes, jokes. Sorta.

I've made a thread on it in the re-read section

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Ned knows his place and the place of everyone else in Westeros. While a good lord, not for him to bring up a common child as a trueborn noble. There are a number of places where this can be seen. Ned's (and Brandon) not one to upset the feudal apple cart, and in this, he and Catelyn understand each other very well.

Jon's status is the only thing they strongly disagree about, to the point that Ned got dangerously angry when Catelyn broached the subject.

Yet no one except Cat seems to question it, & most think Jon's mother is a commoner. Cat thinks it might be Ashara, Cersei thinks it's one possibility, but other than that no one blinks.
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Yet no one except Cat seems to question it, & most think Jon's mother is a commoner. Cat thinks it might be Ashara, Cersei thinks it's one possibility, but other than that no one blinks.

I don't actually agree with this. Most in Dorne and King's landing and the south think Jon's mother is Wylla. In Winterfell, the whisper is all about Ashara Dayne; Catelyn didn't pick up the notion out of thin air. Even when Cersei thinks Jon is Ashara's, it means all the Lannisters and most of the council think so; basically anyone who knows Ned reasonably well thinks Jon is Ashara's.

Wylla was a Dayne woman, and we know Ned was in love with Ashara. Do you mean to tell me that while he was already married to Catelyn while pining for his lost lady, he went and knocked up a wench of hers under her eyes...to while away the time...out of boredom....out of spite...out of wanton lust, or fell in love again? Eddard Stark? Really?? if it was Brandon, maybe, Ned, sorry, no. They can buy that in Dorne where they don't know him and they maybe don't know about Harrenhal, but nobody with a bit of knowledge can even consider that one.

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If Ned told Cat there is a good chance she may have outed his identity to the IT. If word got out that Rhaegar's 'bastard' was in WF it would endanger all of them and Cat puts her children above all...arguably even above Ned.

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I can really see how she would have loved to shelter the potential heir of the whole Kingdom at the cost of her neck and her children's..........not.

Even if she did go along with it, the secret is worth her life and it's too dangerous for her to tell of it

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Thanks Lady of Whisperers. I couldn't remember where it was.

Is it possible for the OP of these threads each time a new one is started, to tack these links so that newcomers can read up on the basic theories without having to read through 36+ threads for answers?

:agree: Doktor Peper made a post like this in L+R=J v. 34. It was really good and had the links to the analysis and explained the theory. It also anwered the FAQ. A post like this would also avoid questions like how can Jon be a targ if he has a burned hand? One should probably add the why did Ned not tell Catelyn?

Most in Dorne and King's landing and the south think Jon's mother is Wylla. In Winterfell, the whisper is all about Ashara Dayne; Catelyn didn't pick up the notion out of thin air. Even when Cersei thinks Jon is Ashara's, it means all the Lannisters and most of the council think so; basically anyone who knows Ned reasonably well thinks Jon is Ashara's.

The tale of Wylla or an other commoner was also spread in Winterfell. In AGoT Sansa 1 Sansa thinks that Jon´s mother was a commoner.

I think there were just so many tales flooding around that it was kinda impossible to find the truth. Maybe that was Ned´s intention and he wanted to make it difficult to find out who Jon´s mom was.

Besides the only person who really care about it are Catelyn and Jon. For the rest of the realm it doesn´t really matter. It is just nice to gossip and speculate about the woman who made the honest Eddard Stark cheat on his wife.

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I don't actually agree with this. Most in Dorne and King's landing and the south think Jon's mother is Wylla. In Winterfell, the whisper is all about Ashara Dayne; Catelyn didn't pick up the notion out of thin air. Even when Cersei thinks Jon is Ashara's, it means all the Lannisters and most of the council think so; basically anyone who knows Ned reasonably well thinks Jon is Ashara's.

Wylla was a Dayne woman, and we know Ned was in love with Ashara. Do you mean to tell me that while he was already married to Catelyn while pining for his lost lady, he went and knocked up a wench of hers under her eyes...to while away the time...out of boredom....out of spite...out of wanton lust, or fell in love again? Eddard Stark? Really?? if it was Brandon, maybe, Ned, sorry, no. They can buy that in Dorne where they don't know him and they maybe don't know about Harrenhal, but nobody with a bit of knowledge can even consider that one.

:agree: Doktor Peper made a post like this in L+R=J v. 34. It was really good and had the links to the analysis and explained the theory. It also anwered the FAQ. A post like this would also avoid questions like how can Jon be a targ if he has a burned hand? One should probably add the why did Ned not tell Catelyn?

The tale of Wylla or an other commoner was also spread in Winterfell. In AGoT Sansa 1 Sansa thinks that Jon´s mother was a commoner.

I think there were just so many tales flooding around that it was kinda impossible to find the truth. Maybe that was Ned´s intention and he wanted to make it difficult to find out who Jon´s mom was.

Besides the only person who really care about it are Catelyn and Jon. For the rest of the realm it doesn´t really matter. It is just nice to gossip and speculate about the woman who made the honest Eddard Stark cheat on his wife.

Then there's the fisherman's daughter...
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Is it possible for the OP of these threads each time a new one is started, to tack these links so that newcomers can read up on the basic theories without having to read through 36+ threads for answers?

I've PMd two mods about this but never received any response. Perhaps they may respond if numerous folks PM them requesting that some sort of FAQ gets inserted into the first post of every new R+L=J thread. A multi-volume thread like this one really needs a FAQ section in the first post.

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