R+L=J v. 36

[niamh]

Yeah, and Elisabeth II, Queen of England, as well

[corbon]

Yeah thats probably true.

So how the hell did....Varys, Jon Arryn, Catelyn, Robert, Benjen, Tywin...not figure it out or come close. SOMEONE HAD TO KNOW other than Howland. That shits driving me crazy.

Why does someone have to know?

There is no reason to figure it out for anyone - Ned disappeared with 6 close friends, re-appeared at Starfall with only 1 friend and Arthur Dayne's sword (logical assumption = found and killed Arthur Dayne, and took losses doing so - it was Arthur Dayne after all!), and came away from Starfall with his southern bastard by Ashara Dayne, known to have been invloved with STarks and dishonoured, who committed suicide.

It all ties up perfectly neatly, People don;t think hard about or investigate stuff that is neatly tied up.

There is no reason anyone would know unless diehard Targaryen loyalists (Daynes/Wylla etc) who want to protect the secret Targaryen heir , blab, or the reticent, difficult to even contact, almost unknown minor lordling Howland Reed blabs, or Ned himself blabs.

No one blabs, then no one else knows. Period.

Cersei says to Ned, "Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?" There's a possibility that there was another Dayne sibling that we don't know about, though that seems unlikely. I think this one comment strongly suggests that it's known that Ned and Arthur clashed. I didn't say anything about about someone specifically knowing that Arthur and Ned clashed at the TOJ. I was merely pointing out there is at least rumor that Ned killed Arthur. No one saw Arthur at the Trident, KL, or Storm's End or later on Dragonstone. The poster asked if others knew. In a shorthand way, I was merely pointing out how others could piece it together if they were so inclined.

Not known, truly, just assumed.

And the 'fact' that Ned and Arthur clashed somewhere, sometime, should not connect anyone to R+L=J.

Wylla was a Dayne woman, and we know Ned was in love with Ashara.

No, we don't. There are rumours from a variety of sources (see below) that Ned was in love with Ashara. There is one scene where a teenage Ned is too shy to talk to ask her to dance and his big brother does it for him. Thats it,

Given Ned's lack of thoughts about Ashara, and the sources of the rumours not being present at Harrenhal, and having an excellent (but wrong) secondary source to start their rumours from (Ned takes a bastard away from Starfall and the young woman of the house, known to previously be involved with Starks, commits suicide = ergo Ned and Ashara were in love and she suicided because he'd had to marry Catelyn and took even their love-child away), its actually quite likely that they were not in love (though perhaps he had a bit of a crush on her). In fact the evidence much more strongly suggests Brandon was the father of her baby, more than Ned.

[Old-Growth]

Corbon:

Someone knows; someone always knows:-) I am still rooting for Ned: the shy guy ought to get the girl at least sometimes....

[corbon]

Corbon:

Someone knows; someone always knows:-)

Yes. Ned, HR and Wylla.

But who would they tell? No one IMO.

I am still rooting for Ned: the shy guy ought to get the girl at least sometimes....

Root away, but answer these questions:

Why does he never think of her even once?

Why does Barristan muse that in his experience (which consists of at least Dany and Ashara) young girls always foolishly go for fire-men (Brandon fits, among others) and not mud-men (Ned is the quintessential mud-man, and always was according to Robert, whom he grew up with)?

[StuSeaworth]

I am sure this quote has likely been shared many a times, but I wanted to post it again.

I already believed in R+L=J , but this quote really hit home.

He raised Longclaw over his head, both hands tight around the grip. One cut, with all my weight behind it. He could give her a quick clean death, at least. He was his father’s son. Wasn’t he? Wasn’t he?

[Twinslayer]

Sorry, I haven't gotten to ADWD in my re-read so could you explain how we KNOW she gave birth to a stillborn? I think it was from Barristan's chapter where he wonders if he could have effectively prevented Robert's Rebellion by winning the Tournament at Harrenhall. But still he wasn't there.

In regards to Wylla, I think I read here recently that that theory (as explained to Davos) doesn't line up time-wise.

The story told to Davos related to a fisherman's daughter. I think the statement made in this thread was that the fisherman's daughter mentioned to Davos in AFFC does not line up as far as the timeline goes (I think SFDanny made this point). I'm not great with timelines, but I have been trying to figure out why the fisherman's daughter does not work.

Davos is told that Ned met a fisherman and her daughter after Jon Arryn called his banners but before Ned got to Winterfell. Davos is also told that Ned left the daughter with some silver and a bastard in her belly. He is not told when or where the fisherman's daughter was left, i.e., he is not told when or where the bastard was conceived.

It also appears that Robb was conceived on Ned's wedding night to Cat and that Robb is about the same age as Jon.

Finally, it appears that Jon and Robb were both born around the time of the Sack of King's Landing, give or take a month for each of them.

If Ned took the fisherman's daughter to Winterfell, people would have talked. So let's say he left her before he got to Winterfell. If Jon was born around the time of the Sack of King's Landing, the only way the fisherman's daughter can be Jon's mother is if the Sack happened -- give or take -- 38 to 42 or so weeks after Ned got back to Winterfell.

It seems to me this means the question is: how long did it take Ned to get from Winterfell to Riverrun, to marry Cat? If it was 3-4 weeks or so, the timeline works and the fisherman's daughter could be the mother. If it was longer than that, the fisherman's daughter is ruled out.

As I said, I am not great with timelines. Have I missed something here?

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Jon is suppose to be a few months younger.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The fisherman's daughter story doesn't work because of the timeline. He would've had the fling with her before marrying Catelyn. The ruse with Jon depends on Jon being younger than Robb (Jon might actually be older, but officially, Robb is older), but not by much. They have to be close enough in age that one wasn't noticeably older than the other one when they were babies in Winterfell (or at least, if one of them looks older, it has to be Robb). Even if it was only a matter of, say, a month, between Ned first coming south and when he married Catelyn, that's a big amount of time when you're dealing with newborns. That is to say, if Jon was actually a month older than Robb, it would've been obvious.

[Fire Eater]

The fisherman's daughter story doesn't work because of the timeline. He would've had the fling with her before marrying Catelyn. The ruse with Jon depends on Jon being younger than Robb (Jon might actually be older, but officially, Robb is older), but not by much. They have to be close enough in age that one wasn't noticeably older than the other one when they were babies in Winterfell (or at least, if one of them looks older, it has to be Robb). Even if it was only a matter of, say, a month, between Ned first coming south and when he married Catelyn, that's a big amount of time when you're dealing with newborns. That is to say, if Jon was actually a month older than Robb, it would've been obvious.

Robert was probably the one who left a bastard in her belly as Robert himself in AGoT stated he bedded a fishmaid once.

[Dr. Pepper]

Not known, truly, just assumed.

And the 'fact' that Ned and Arthur clashed somewhere, sometime, should not connect anyone to R+L=J.

An assumption is all it takes for something to be considered 'known'. People assume that Ashara or Wylla or a fisherman's daughter is Jon's mother and that makes those characters think they 'know' the truth.

The poster I responded to asked if anyone other than those known or assumed to leave the TOJ alive could know the truth. The point is, if someone were inclined and they knew (or assumed) Arthur was with Rhaegar during the first part of the war and that Rhaegar was with Lyanna and Ned killed Arthur and Ned returned home with a baby he claimed as his bastard, someone (again someone inclined) could know the truth. I'm not saying that I think that someone knows the truth or even offering theories on who may know. Just pointing out the very obvious that there are enough puzzle pieces for someone (again, someone inclined) to at least assume the truth.

[Lykos]

Fire Eater, as much as I like this scenario, the bastard Robert put into the fisherman´s daughters belly can´t be Jon´s age, unless she accompanied Ned from the Vale (where Robert impregnated her), since they were going in opposite directions at that time.

“Ned Stark was here?”

“At the dawn of Robert’s Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark’s head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.“ ... "By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. ‘This Baratheon is fearless,’ I said. ‘He fights the way a king should fight.’ Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, ‘In this world only winter is certain. ..."

Dance, Davos.

Map. :)

edit and ETA: As Apple Martini pointed out the Child would be a year or so older than Jon. I´m talking of the "Jon" Lord Godric was telling Davos about.

[SFDanny]

The story told to Davos related to a fisherman's daughter. I think the statement made in this thread was that the fisherman's daughter mentioned to Davos in AFFC does not line up as far as the timeline goes (I think SFDanny made this point). I'm not great with timelines, but I have been trying to figure out why the fisherman's daughter does not work.

Davos is told that Ned met a fisherman and her daughter after Jon Arryn called his banners but before Ned got to Winterfell. Davos is also told that Ned left the daughter with some silver and a bastard in her belly. He is not told when or where the fisherman's daughter was left, i.e., he is not told when or where the bastard was conceived.

It also appears that Robb was conceived on Ned's wedding night to Cat and that Robb is about the same age as Jon.

Finally, it appears that Jon and Robb were both born around the time of the Sack of King's Landing, give or take a month for each of them.

If Ned took the fisherman's daughter to Winterfell, people would have talked. So let's say he left her before he got to Winterfell. If Jon was born around the time of the Sack of King's Landing, the only way the fisherman's daughter can be Jon's mother is if the Sack happened -- give or take -- 38 to 42 or so weeks after Ned got back to Winterfell.

It seems to me this means the question is: how long did it take Ned to get from Winterfell to Riverrun, to marry Cat? If it was 3-4 weeks or so, the timeline works and the fisherman's daughter could be the mother. If it was longer than that, the fisherman's daughter is ruled out.

As I said, I am not great with timelines. Have I missed something here?

Let me have a go with this Twinslayer.

I've speculated about Ned lying concerning Jon's name day if Jon is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son, but what possible reason could he have for lying about Jon's age if he is the bastard child of a fisherman's daughter chance met on his journey north before he marries Catelyn? He has no reason to conceal this from Catelyn because it would tell her he did not cheat on her after they were wed. He has no reason to keep this from Jon or lie to cover up the truth if his mother is really just this fisherman's daughter.

So, let us assume Jon's name day is the true one. Then we have to explain how Ned travels back in time to conceive a child. Why? because that's the only way it works if the name days of Robb and Jon are correct. Ned tells us, and so does Catelyn, that Jon is conceived after Catelyn and Ned are married. We know when Robb is conceived because Catelyn tells us it is during their honeymoon which takes place after the Battle of the Bells. Jon is conceived sometime after that, when Ned is "warring in the south." Which we know is some eight or nine months before the sack of King's Landing. It's not possible for Jon to be this fisherman's daughter's child, if the child is conceived during the timeframe of between when Ned leaves the Vale and when he gets to Winterfell.

I suppose, if we are to assume the fisherman's daughter is not someone we already know - I think she is Wylla - that it is possible that just like Ashara or Wylla, we can imagine her finding her way into Ned's camp at the appropriate time. How then does her son end up with Ned between the Tower of Joy and Ned's arrival back from Starfall? And on and on, a whole host of questions then come to mind about how this could possibly work, and why the Daynes and Wylla are covering for Ned's "terrible" secret of have a bastard child with a fisherman's daughter. It makes no sense. Either there is another bastard child of Ned's wandering around someplace named Jon Snow, or this is just a cover story. My vote is for the latter. Hope that clears some of this up, but I've probably only made it worse.

[Old-Growth]

Yes. Ned, HR and Wylla.

But who would they tell? No one IMO.

Why does Barristan muse that in his experience (which consists of at least Dany and Ashara) young girls always foolishly go for fire-men (Brandon fits, among others) and not mud-men (Ned is the quintessential mud-man, and always was according to Robert, whom he grew up with.

On the first point Tyrion, Ser Barristan, and either Ser Jorah or Dany, taken together know it but do not know that they know it at least not yet. On the second point, I do not take Ser Barristan to be an expert on the romantic feelings of young woman, tho' I grant his sixty years could have afforded him much time for observation thereof.

[Old-Growth]

SF Danny:

The fisherman's daughter story came from somewhere: are you suggesting that Ned was rather more energetic about laying a false trail than we have hitherto supposed?

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

SF Danny:

The fisherman's daughter story came from somewhere: are you suggesting that Ned was rather more energetic about laying a false trail than we have hitherto supposed?

Maybe he took advantage of an old rumor? Scenario: The Fisherman's Daughter gets pregnant by some local boy, later on she helps Ned. Local people know she helped him & that Ned repaid her with a lot of money. When she begins showing, they jump to the conclusion that Ned must have given her a little more than gold & thank you's. Ned doesn't find out about it till much later, but has Jon by that time, so he decides to say nothing about it, to further blur things & help protect the secret. This probably would mean it's not Wylla, because I don't see how she could make her way to Dorne afterwards. (The only evidence that they might have been the same person, Manderly's daughter is named Wylla so it might be a common name in the area. Pretty thin evidence even by ASOIAF fans standards!) :lol: ;)

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Maybe he took advantage of an old rumor? Scenario: The Fisherman's Daughter gets pregnant by some local boy, later on she helps Ned. Local people know she helped him & that Ned repaid her with a lot of money. When she begins showing, they jump to the conclusion that Ned must have given her a little more than gold & thank you's. Ned doesn't find out about it till much later, but has Jon by that time, so he decides to say nothing about it, to further blur things & help protect the secret. This probably would mean it's not Wylla, because I don't see how she could make her way to Dorne afterwards. (The only evidence that they might have been the same person, Manderly's daughter is named Wylla so it might be a common name in the area. Pretty thin evidence even by ASOIAF fans standards!) :lol: ;)

Well if you go by the rumour she's just been given a big bag of silver by Ned Stark and maybe she fancied a warmer climate? She'd easily be able to afford passage on a ship.

[Ygrain]

SF Danny:

The fisherman's daughter story came from somewhere: are you suggesting that Ned was rather more energetic about laying a false trail than we have hitherto supposed?

Maybe he took advantage of an old rumor? Scenario: The Fisherman's Daughter gets pregnant by some local boy, later on she helps Ned. Local people know she helped him & that Ned repaid her with a lot of money. When she begins showing, they jump to the conclusion that Ned must have given her a little more than gold & thank you's. Ned doesn't find out about it till much later, but has Jon by that time, so he decides to say nothing about it, to further blur things & help protect the secret. This probably would mean it's not Wylla, because I don't see how she could make her way to Dorne afterwards. (The only evidence that they might have been the same person, Manderly's daughter is named Wylla so it might be a common name in the area. Pretty thin evidence even by ASOIAF fans standards!) :lol: ;)

Does Ned even know about this story? It's never mentioned in any of his PoVs, and given the source, might actually be limited to the area of the Sisters. It may have originated similarly as the rumour about Ashara: people trying to find some connection between Ned and a woman who could have been Jon's mother. Like, "Lord Eddard fathered a bastard during the war - ah, wait, there was this fisherman's daughter who helped him out, so she kept him warm during the nights, haha," something like that. Ned himself may not even be aware.

Concerning the name Wylla: I pointed out in one of the earlier threads that the origin of the name Wylla might actually be southern - Manderlys came from the south and it can be a family name they brought along to the north, but it may be common in the south, as well.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Does Ned even know about this story? It's never mentioned in any of his PoVs, and given the source, might actually be limited to the area of the Sisters. It may have originated similarly as the rumour about Ashara: people trying to find some connection between Ned and a woman who could have been Jon's mother. Like, "Lord Eddard fathered a bastard during the war - ah, wait, there was this fisherman's daughter who helped him out, so she kept him warm during the nights, haha," something like that. Ned himself may not even be aware.

The fact that it's not mentioned in any of his POVs doesn't mean it's not necessarily true. However I have to agree that it seems distinctly unlikely. As you say it's not mentioned by any of the other charatcters as even a rumour and seems far more likely to be a local rumour started up about their liege lord to give a bit of colour to his, possibly only, visit.

[Ribupr]

Can we please address Jon Snow by his real name.........Vhaegar Targaryen.

[drigoly]

Can we please address Jon Snow by his real name.........Vhaegar Targaryen.

If Rhaegar did give him a valyrian name, i think that it starts with J, Jaeharys, Jhaegar?