R+L=J v. 36

[Queen of Procrastination]

If Rhaegar did give him a valyrian name, i think that it starts with J, Jaeharys, Jhaegar?

Or the the male form of Visenya, because he named his children after Aegon and his sisters. Is it Visenys?

I would also like Aemon Targaryen. Jon would be named after the hero from his childhood and after Maester Aemon :)

Can we please address Jon Snow by his real name.........Vhaegar Targaryen.

Right now his real name is Jon Stark, because Robb legitimated him ;)

[niamh]

Tbh, while I can't see what else is Jon except L+R, I am at the stage that I don't want him to become Targaryen. I like him a Stark, blood of the first men and half a wildling. What need has he got to claim the blood of some pale bloodthirsty recent invaders who don't respect the trees and the old gods, really? He's above that now.

and if one Stark belongs and embodies the North, it's him.

And I'd take Ghost over any dragon :P

[Gi_Varotti]

Ok, I'm new here so it may sound as a silly question to ask but what is there to be discussed so much? :)

Tbh, while I can't see what else is Jon except L+R, I am at the stage that I don't want him to become Targaryen. I like him a Stark, blood of the first men and half a wildling. What need has he got to claim the blood of some pale bloodthirsty recent invaders who don't respect the trees and the old gods, really? He's above that now.

and if one Stark belongs and embodies the North, it's him.

And I'd take Ghost over any dragon :P

He'd still be half a Stark :P . Oh yeah, a direwolf over a dragon. Always!

Anyway, I want Jon to join forces with the Sand Snakes & Arianne Martell and kick Dany and her dragons' *ssess.

[corbon]

On the second point, I do not take Ser Barristan to be an expert on the romantic feelings of young woman, tho' I grant his sixty years could have afforded him much time for observation thereof.

Thats irrelevant. It doesn't matter how expert he is on young women in general. His musing must be based on his personal experience, so what he is telling us is that all the young women he observed (Dany and Ashara) chose fire men. Whether that applies 'generally' or not is unimportant. His 'theory' is made up from his observations, so we know that Ashara and Dany must have both chosen fire men, even if no other girl in teh world would.

[corbon]

The poster I responded to asked if anyone other than those known or assumed to leave the TOJ alive could know the truth. The point is, if someone were inclined and they knew (or assumed) Arthur was with Rhaegar during the first part of the war and that Rhaegar was with Lyanna and Ned killed Arthur and Ned returned home with a baby he claimed as his bastard, someone (again someone inclined) could know the truth. I'm not saying that I think that someone knows the truth or even offering theories on who may know. Just pointing out the very obvious that there are enough puzzle pieces for someone (again, someone inclined) to at least assume the truth.

I don't think there is enough out there for anyone to know the truth. We may have to agree to disagree.

I don't think those disparate facts are enough to figure out the Jon at ToJ scenario, even the basics. People tend to make 'smart' assumptions, not wildly improbable ones.

Jon is 'clearly' Ashara Daynes. She suicided because Ned took their baby. Their relationship is 'confirmed' by widely separated rumours and past history.

There is no indication anywhere that Lyanna was ever even pregnant.

There is no indication that Arthur Dayne was with her or anyone else. Ned killed him and took the sword to starfall, Jon came from starfall, so the two don't fit together at all/

[niamh]

Ok, I'm new here so it may sound as a silly question to ask but what is there to be discussed so much? :)

He'd still be half a Stark :P . Oh yeah, a direwolf over a dragon. Always!

Anyway, I want Jon to join forces with the Sand Snakes & Arianne Martell and kick Dany and her dragons' *ssess.

Yes, but everyone here for years seems to want him to be Overlord of Westeros or something. Personally i don't want him to be the sort of person who wants to rule the kingdom. We've seen what they are.

Can you see Jon bowing to the Seven while supervising some idiotic tourneys and trapped in King's Landing with Varyses or Littlefingers at his heels, in an arranged marriage to some vapid southron heiress, or his foreign half sister who is as Westerosi as Joffrey is a Baratheon ? What an awful punishment. He'd have more fun being Coldhands.

[niamh]

I don't think there is enough out there for anyone to know the truth. We may have to agree to disagree.

I don't think those disparate facts are enough to figure out the Jon at ToJ scenario, even the basics. People tend to make 'smart' assumptions, not wildly improbable ones.

Jon is 'clearly' Ashara Daynes. She suicided because Ned took their baby. Their relationship is 'confirmed' by widely separated rumours and past history.

There is no indication anywhere that Lyanna was ever even pregnant.

There is no indication that Arthur Dayne was with her or anyone else. Ned killed him and took the sword to starfall, Jon came from starfall, so the two don't fit together at all/

Tell you the truth, i'd rather at this stage that jon was Brandon's and Ashara's and the rightful heir of winterfell, but while it explains Ned's silence to catelyn, it doesn't explain the promise to Lyanna (which caused him to live lies for 14 years as he himself recalls) or anything else at all.

[Ygrain]

Tell you the truth, i'd rather at this stage that jon was Brandon's and Ashara's and the rightful heir of winterfell, but while it explains Ned's silence to catelyn, it doesn't explain the promise to Lyanna (which caused him to live lies for 14 years as he himself recalls) or anything else at all.

Does it, actually? It might be an explanation at the beginning when, say, Ned didn't want to hurt her feelings over her betrothed sleeping around, but later? Especially when seeing Cat being bitter about his supposed bastard? For noble males, having a bastard is not perceived as a huge stain on their honour, and the silence (and flying off the handle when asked) makes no sense for a child of Brandon's.

[Gi_Varotti]

Yes, but everyone here for years seems to want him to be Overlord of Westeros or something. Personally i don't want him to be the sort of person who wants to rule the kingdom. We've seen what they are.

Can you see Jon bowing to the Seven while supervising some idiotic tourneys and trapped in King's Landing with Varyses or Littlefingers at his heels, in an arranged marriage to some vapid southron heiress, or his foreign half sister who is as Westerosi as Joffrey is a Baratheon ? What an awful punishment. He'd have more fun being Coldhands.

What!? NO WAY, nah nah. Jon Snow is way to cool to do that boring ruling role. I hope he gets a very bad*ss part to play (like that AA/Lightbringer theory) and keeps following the Old Gods and no 7 or R'hllor whatever thing.

Dany can tale Westeros and do whatever she wants with it. I also hope that Winterfell ends up with Rickon (I don't think Bran will leave the tree) because I just can't stand Sansa's dullness.

I don't think there is enough out there for anyone to know the truth. We may have to agree to disagree.

I don't think those disparate facts are enough to figure out the Jon at ToJ scenario, even the basics. People tend to make 'smart' assumptions, not wildly improbable ones.

Jon is 'clearly' Ashara Daynes. She suicided because Ned took their baby. Their relationship is 'confirmed' by widely separated rumours and past history.

There is no indication anywhere that Lyanna was ever even pregnant.

There is no indication that Arthur Dayne was with her or anyone else. Ned killed him and took the sword to starfall, Jon came from starfall, so the two don't fit together at all/

Tell you the truth, i'd rather at this stage that jon was Brandon's and Ashara's and the rightful heir of winterfell, but while it explains Ned's silence to catelyn, it doesn't explain the promise to Lyanna (which caused him to live lies for 14 years as he himself recalls) or anything else at all.

I think that if Jon really was Ned's kid he would have told Cat that. Otherwise, why keep such secret so long?

I thought Jon was Ashara's son after reading more about Rhaegar and Lyanna and I had the same theory about her throwing herself to death because of her love to Ned but now I think she did it because they took Dany from her (ser Barristan seems a good source for me) + the love for Ned.

[niamh]

Does it, actually? It might be an explanation at the beginning when, say, Ned didn't want to hurt her feelings over her betrothed sleeping around, but later? Especially when seeing Cat being bitter about his supposed bastard? For noble males, having a bastard is not perceived as a huge stain on their honour, and the silence (and flying off the handle when asked) makes no sense for a child of Brandon's.

Yes it does, it would make Jon the very well bred eldest son of the eldest son. Enough to lay a very valid claim to the North when grown. She'd have smothered the child if she had learned something like that. The woman is paranoid already about Jon as a younger half commoner

Dany a daughter of Ashara's? sure why not, we've heard worse, lol

[Gi_Varotti]

Dany a daughter of Ashara's? sure why not, we've heard worse, lol

Hahahaha, really? Like the one of Tyrion? :P

The only thing I'm sure of is that I know nothing for sure! The books are full of tricks and I like them :)

[Ygrain]

Yes it does, it would make Jon the very well bred eldest son of the eldest son. Enough to lay a very valid claim to the North when grown. She'd have smothered the child if she had learned something like that. The woman is paranoid already about Jon as a younger half commoner

Not a son. Bastard. Well bred or not, he has no claim before Ned's trueborn children, no matter whose bastard he is.

[SFDanny]

SF Danny:

The fisherman's daughter story came from somewhere: are you suggesting that Ned was rather more energetic about laying a false trail than we have hitherto supposed?

Not sure what you envision with the phrase "more energetic," Old Growth, but, yes, within limits that is what I'm suggesting. If Lord Godric, a Targaryen loyalist at the start of the rebellion, is telling Davos that the fisherman's daughter is the mother of the Jon Snow we know, then he is lying. We know that because we know that Jon is conceived months later. So why is he lying? Why does he bring up Ned at all?

I think he is repeating a story Stannis has already heard to Stannis's Hand. Stannis's remark to Jon about his mother being a fishwife is too close to this story to be just a coincidence. Somebody, Varys most

Iikely, has been making reports that Stannis would hear and this story got into it. So why would this be included if it's just some local legend/rumor? Because something sends investigators to the Sisters to run down the truth of Jon's origins. I think that "something" is Wylla.

I don't think Martin is just reusing Wylla's name in the character of Wylla Manderly. This strikes me as a regional/clan name that like "Lanna" or "Barra" is something small folk, like a fisherman, would name his daughter to honor/curry favor with a local lord. The idea this is something we would find in Dorne as a common name just doesn't fit. No, I think Wylla is from one of two places, given her name - either the region of White Harbor, or the ancestral home of the Manderlys in the Reach.

So, back to Lord Godric's lie. If someone is looking to verify the claims Wylla makes about being Jon's mom, then looking into Wylla's origin is a logical course of action. Ned knows this. If he wants to cover his tracks and for the story he tells Robert to hold up to any close inspection he has to deal with how, supposedly, he met Wylla. This tale smacks of that cover story to me. A story being retold by a man whose loyalties start out with the Dragonlords, and I think with both the Daynes and Ned's help, remain with the Targaryens.

The alternative is to believe either Ned fathered another bastard son than the one we know, and one he ignores, or this story means nothing - it is only a lie Martin tells the reader. I don't find either of these credible. Martin's red herrings aren't just simple lies, and Ned seems very unlike the man in Godric's story.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

The alternative is to believe either Ned fathered another bastard son than the one we know, and one he ignores, or this story means nothing - it is only a lie Martin tells the reader. I don't find either of these credible. Martin's red herrings aren't just simple lies, and Ned seems very unlike the man in Godric's story.

I think it just serves the purpose to muddy the waters a bit and create a little more mystery around Jon's parentage. Fact is GRRM kind of shot his bolt in GoT with all the hints and stories surronding this. So he needs to keep the reader focused on it and put a little bit more doubt into their minds. I think it's just another rumour that's out there and there is nothing more to it than that.

[MtnLion]

I think it just serves the purpose to muddy the waters a bit and create a little more mystery around Jon's parentage. Fact is GRRM kind of shot his bolt in GoT with all the hints and stories surronding this. So he needs to keep the reader focused on it and put a little bit more doubt into their minds. I think it's just another rumour that's out there and there is nothing more to it than that.

So, you are of the opinion that GRRM is a shallow writer, especially in the A Song of Ice and Fire series? I rather think that every word that is added to each sentence that gets added to each paragraph, etc. is thought about from many perspectives. This is truly a work of prose, and there will be a reason for Godric's lie. I don't pretend to know the reason, but I am certain that it cannot be as simple as to just "muddy the waters".

[Bear Island Bruiser]

So, you are of the opinion that GRRM is a shallow writer, especially in the A Song of Ice and Fire series? I rather think that every word that is added to each sentence that gets added to each paragraph, etc. is thought about from many perspectives. This is truly a work of prose, and there will be a reason for Godric's lie. I don't pretend to know the reason, but I am certain that it cannot be as simple as to just "muddy the waters".

What a very strange way of interpretting what I said. If anything creating a 'red herring' and showing there are other rumours out there says a lot about the society and flow of information around it. It's a great thing to chuck in there. I always think that some people are far too willing to read significance into every tiny little detail when often it can be to just fill out the world that GRRM is looking to create. Which is what makes him a good writer. I mean I'm still waiting for that ruddy kraken to turn up!

[Dragonfish]

Yes it does, it would make Jon the very well bred eldest son of the eldest son.

Thankfully, this could not have happened, as Brandon died before Jon was conceived.

[niamh]

Not a son. Bastard. Well bred or not, he has no claim before Ned's trueborn children, no matter whose bastard he is.

That's the pretty theory. In practice, it doesn't always work that way. Especially a bastard that would be as well bred as that and especially in the North. His claim would be good enough that it could tear the north bloody. Of course, Jon himself is not that sort, but Catelyn can't know that when he's a baby, especially naturally suspicious as she is. She already fears him born as he is, it's mentioned once or twice.

Ultimately a claim is only as good as how many swords follow you. When the Targaryens arrived 300 years ago their "claim" was exactly zero. they weren't even somebosy's bastard, they were out and out foreigners. Don't recall it stopped them. Didn't stop Robert. Didn't stop Ramsay Snow. Doesn't stop any or all Greyjoys.

In any case, I'd be fairly sure Dorne would be only delighted to legitimise Jon double quick with that scenario.

I don't believe jon's Brandon's but if he was and only Ned knew, he'd be criminally stupid to tell his wife, or Jon himself

[JonisnoGarySnow]

Tbh, while I can't see what else is Jon except L+R, I am at the stage that I don't want him to become Targaryen. I like him a Stark, blood of the first men and half a wildling. What need has he got to claim the blood of some pale bloodthirsty recent invaders who don't respect the trees and the old gods, really? He's above that now.

and if one Stark belongs and embodies the North, it's him.

And I'd take Ghost over any dragon :P

100% agree. I would like to see Jon find out about his heritage and completely reject it in favor of being who he is, a northman, a Stark.

[Gi_Varotti]

Maybe Godric's story or any other rumour about Jon's mother/Ned's love affairs (I don't think he had any) were created by the characters, instead of being GRRM's lies to the readers, to draw attention from Ned's silence about Jon's real parents.

Too much silence would draw more attention than having only one/two rumours, wouldn't it? Maybe Ned lied to someone about his fake love affair and it spread. Robert told him once about his fisherwoman and Jon was also told that (can't remember by who).