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R+L=J v. 36


Stubby

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That's the pretty theory. In practice, it doesn't always work that way. Especially a bastard that would be as well bred as that and especially in the North. His claim would be good enough that it could tear the north bloody. Of course, Jon himself is not that sort, but Catelyn can't know that when he's a baby, especially naturally suspicious as she is. She already fears him born as he is, it's mentioned once or twice.

Ultimately a claim is only as good as how many swords follow you. When the Targaryens arrived 300 years ago their "claim" was exactly zero. they weren't even somebosy's bastard, they were out and out foreigners. Don't recall it stopped them. Didn't stop Robert. Didn't stop Ramsay Snow. Doesn't stop any or all Greyjoys.

In any case, I'd be fairly sure Dorne would be only delighted to legitimise Jon double quick with that scenario.

I don't believe jon's Brandon's but if he was and only Ned knew, he'd be criminally stupid to tell his wife, or Jon himself

Cat's main beef is not his potential claim to anything, noble-born on both sides or not, but that by being raised on par with the trueborn children, he is elevated far above his bastard status and might feel entitled to more. If he was known as a bastard of Brandon and Ashara, and fostered with some of Ned's northern vassals, would he perceived as a threat? I don't think so; no-one ever considers Edric Storm a competition for Joffrey (or Stannis) even though he is a king's bastard.

Targaryens came as conquerors who coined a realm and title which previously didn't exist; those further three examples are rather an exception than the rule, or can you provide some other instances of Lord Paramount's legal heirs being overthrown by bastards? Note please that both Ramsay and Ironborn press their cause only when the existing social structure is badly shattered by the chaos of the war.

Not sure what you mean by Dorne legitimising Jon, Dorne cannot legitimize anyone.

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Maybe he took advantage of an old rumor? Scenario: The Fisherman's Daughter gets pregnant by some local boy, later on she helps Ned. Local people know she helped him & that Ned repaid her with a lot of money. When she begins showing, they jump to the conclusion that Ned must have given her a little more than gold & thank you's. Ned doesn't find out about it till much later, but has Jon by that time, so he decides to say nothing about it, to further blur things & help protect the secret. This probably would mean it's not Wylla, because I don't see how she could make her way to Dorne afterwards. (The only evidence that they might have been the same person, Manderly's daughter is named Wylla so it might be a common name in the area. Pretty thin evidence even by ASOIAF fans standards!) :lol: ;)

IMO the story isn't a lie. This is a nobody Lord on a back water Island, that nobody will admit to doing busy with, and it happened a year or more before Ned knew he needed a cover. The story is at least in some part true, likely all of it. GRRM likes to write 2 stories that run parallel.

Think about it. A young man, suddenly becomes head of his family, a Lord. People he loved were killed, and he has to fight a mentally damaged king, not only for his own life, but for the rest of his family. Far from home finds comfort in the arms of a woman he knows he shouldn't be with.

Robb = Ned but with a different out come? The only part I am not sure I believe is if it resulted in a bastard.

Yes, but everyone here for years seems to want him to be Overlord of Westeros or something. Personally i don't want him to be the sort of person who wants to rule the kingdom.

Heresy!!!!! :commie: I never seen you at the meetings.

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IMO the story isn't a lie. This is a nobody Lord on a back water Island, that nobody will admit to doing busy with, and it happened a year or more before Ned knew he needed a cover. The story is at least in some part true, likely all of it. GRRM likes to write 2 stories that run parallel.

Think about it. A young man, suddenly becomes head of his family, a Lord. People he loved were killed, and he has to fight a mentally damaged king, not only for his own life, but for the rest of his family. Far from home finds comfort in the arms of a woman he knows he shouldn't be with.

Robb = Ned but with a different out come? The only part I am not sure I believe is if it resulted in a bastard.

So where is Ned's real bastard now, & why do people think Jon is it?
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What a very strange way of interpretting what I said. If anything creating a 'red herring' and showing there are other rumours out there says a lot about the society and flow of information around it. It's a great thing to chuck in there. I always think that some people are far too willing to read significance into every tiny little detail when often it can be to just fill out the world that GRRM is looking to create. Which is what makes him a good writer. I mean I'm still waiting for that ruddy kraken to turn up!

The kraken is a good example of a line thrown in that fills out the world, and nothing more. This isn't remotely like that. The whole reason for the Davos chapter is to tell the fisherman's daughter's tale, it seems to me. There is nothing else in it that really is necessary to move the story forward. Why not have Davos land in White Harbor, if this conversation isn't important? No reason that I can think of.

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I've been reading through the old threads on R+L-=J; it's funny to see people complaining way back then "that it's now the fourth thread dealing with this and what really more can be discussed?" Hah! If they only knew!

One of the things discussed back then that I haven't seen recently in these threads, is what was the "official" story of what happened at the ToJ? The app tells us that the location wasn't quite as "secret" as we may have been led to believe. What was the official story regarding Lyanna's death?

What do Jaime and Barristan think their KG brothers were doing? Why are the Terrific Trio still viewed with the highest regard when they were not really visible during the war? Did anything about this pique the interest of Varys?

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IMO the story isn't a lie. This is a nobody Lord on a back water Island, that nobody will admit to doing busy with, and it happened a year or more before Ned knew he needed a cover.

Why does this matter? If Ned made the story up after the fact, he can claim it happened at any time that suits his purposes.

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The story is at least in some part true, likely all of it.

Certainly some part of it is true, but the core of the story concerning the birth of Jon Snow is demonstrably a lie. We know it is a lie because of the remarks Martin has made about Jon's age relative to Daenerys's age and the material in the series that places Robb's conception before Jon's.

The part that seems true is that Ned very likely traveled this way on his way from the Vale to Winterfell. Ned may have had his meeting with Lord Godric's father. He may have even been transported by a fisherman and his daughter. He did NOT father the Jon Snow we know with anyone during this time period.

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So where is Ned's real bastard now, & why do people think Jon is it?

Again I don't know if I believe he had a bastard, just that he "found comfort in her arms". If you are asking why Godric thinks it was her child, because he put 1 and 1 and came up with 2. As I said earlier in the thread, I don't think Ned told anyone, anything. I really don't think Ned would have bother to make up a story for the Sisterton, and have it spread. This is The Ned that walked right into LF/Cersei trap, and didn't see any of it coming. Even Stannis knew enough to leave KL.

If you are asking why Readers/posters think she is the mother, they are in deinal about R + L = J.

Certainly some part of it is true, but the core of the story concerning the birth of Jon Snow is demonstrably a lie. We know it is a lie because of the remarks Martin has made about Jon's age relative to Daenerys's age and the material in the series that places Robb's conception before Jon's.

The part that seems true is that Ned very likely traveled this way on his way from the Vale to Winterfell. Ned may have had his meeting with Lord Godric's father. He may have even been transported by a fisherman and his daughter. He did NOT father the Jon Snow we know with anyone during this time period.

Did not say he did. IF there is a bastard out there, it would be a few months older then Robb. Again I don't know about the bastard she may have had.

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Let me have a go with this Twinslayer.

I've speculated about Ned lying concerning Jon's name day if Jon is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son, but what possible reason could he have for lying about Jon's age if he is the bastard child of a fisherman's daughter chance met on his journey north before he marries Catelyn? He has no reason to conceal this from Catelyn because it would tell her he did not cheat on her after they were wed. He has no reason to keep this from Jon or lie to cover up the truth if his mother is really just this fisherman's daughter.

So, let us assume Jon's name day is the true one. Then we have to explain how Ned travels back in time to conceive a child. Why? because that's the only way it works if the name days of Robb and Jon are correct. Ned tells us, and so does Catelyn, that Jon is conceived after Catelyn and Ned are married. We know when Robb is conceived because Catelyn tells us it is during their honeymoon which takes place after the Battle of the Bells. Jon is conceived sometime after that, when Ned is "warring in the south." Which we know is some eight or nine months before the sack of King's Landing. It's not possible for Jon to be this fisherman's daughter's child, if the child is conceived during the timeframe of between when Ned leaves the Vale and when he gets to Winterfell.

I suppose, if we are to assume the fisherman's daughter is not someone we already know - I think she is Wylla - that it is possible that just like Ashara or Wylla, we can imagine her finding her way into Ned's camp at the appropriate time. How then does her son end up with Ned between the Tower of Joy and Ned's arrival back from Starfall? And on and on, a whole host of questions then come to mind about how this could possibly work, and why the Daynes and Wylla are covering for Ned's "terrible" secret of have a bastard child with a fisherman's daughter. It makes no sense. Either there is another bastard child of Ned's wandering around someplace named Jon Snow, or this is just a cover story. My vote is for the latter. Hope that clears some of this up, but I've probably only made it worse.

SFDanny, thanks for putting this together. I had discounted Cat's observation that Jon's conception came after Robb's as unreliable. But if it's confirmed that Ned said this (I don't recall it) and/or that Robb's nameday was after Jon's (I don't recall that either) then you are almost certainly right, because I agree with you that it is extremely unlikely Ned met up with the fisherman's daughter somewhere south of Riverrun after his wedding to Cat.

On your point about Wylla, if she's the fisherman's daughter, do you also think she is the same one who wound up in Dorne as Ned Dayne's wetnurse? I had not thought of this possibility before.

Finally, I saw your other post about the Kraken. I always thought that was a reference to Euron Greyjoy sailing around Valyria and Essos, i.e. that it was a figurative Kraken, not a literal one.

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I've been reading through the old threads on R+L-=J; it's funny to see people complaining way back then "that it's now the fourth thread dealing with this and what really more can be discussed?" Hah! If they only knew!

One of the things discussed back then that I haven't seen recently in these threads, is what was the "official" story of what happened at the ToJ? The app tells us that the location wasn't quite as "secret" as we may have been led to believe. What was the official story regarding Lyanna's death?

What do Jaime and Barristan think their KG brothers were doing? Why are the Terrific Trio still viewed with the highest regard when they were not really visible during the war? Did anything about this pique the interest of Varys?

What is really telling is that Varys did not know where Rhaegar was. There must not have been any little birds in that area, even though we know there are some at Winterfell, at least one of which overheard Catelyn, Robb, Luwin, and Rodrick after the assassination attempt when they held their secret meeting. Did Varys know of Rhaegar's plans for his father? I doubt it, since Rhaegar was not a crispy critter. So, it appears that Varys is not omnipotent.
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Again I don't know if I believe he had a bastard, just that he "found comfort in her arms". If you are asking why Godric thinks it was her child, because he put 1 and 1 and came up with 2. As I said earlier in the thread, I don't think Ned told anyone, anything. I really don't think Ned would have bother to make up a story for the Sisterton, and have it spread. This is The Ned that walked right into LF/Cersei trap, and didn't see any of it coming. Even Stannis knew enough to leave KL.

If you are asking why Readers/posters think she is the mother, they are in deinal about R + L = J.

Did not say he did. IF there is a bastard out there, it would be a few months older then Robb. Again I don't know about the bastard she may have had.

I misread what you were saying sorry.
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An explanation for Godric's story: I had an aha moment. :P

After ToJ, Ned returns Dawn to Starfall, and he has a bundle of joy that needs to be taken surreptitiously back to Winterfell. (Remember he beat Catelyn back.) He takes a ship from Starfall, and lands in the Sisters. There he plants the cover story with his bannerman Godric, and of course the evidence is right there Wylla the wetnurse from Starfall becomes a fisherman's daughter, and Jon her bastard son. Why did they land at the Sisters? Because the lights had been lit to mislead the ships, piracy. I think Ned was more than a little perturbed. ;)

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What is really telling is that Varys did not know where Rhaegar was. There must not have been any little birds in that area, even though we know there are some at Winterfell, at least one of which overheard Catelyn, Robb, Luwin, and Rodrick after the assassination attempt when they held their secret meeting. Did Varys know of Rhaegar's plans for his father? I doubt it, since Rhaegar was not a crispy critter. So, it appears that Varys is not omnipotent.

At least not omnipotent at this time in the story.

Any thoughts on what Jaime, Barristan and others thought about the KG being away from KL, Dragonstone, Storm's End, the Trident, etc? There must have been some questions about what exactly their mission was.

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An explanation for Godric's story: I had an aha moment. :P

After ToJ, Ned returns Dawn to Starfall, and he has a bundle of joy that needs to be taken surreptitiously back to Winterfell. (Remember he beat Catelyn back.) He takes a ship from Starfall, and lands in the Sisters. There he plants the cover story with his bannerman Godric, and of course the evidence is right there Wylla the wetnurse from Starfall becomes a fisherman's daughter, and Jon her bastard son. Why did they land at the Sisters? Because the lights had been lit to mislead the ships, piracy. I think Ned was more than a little perturbed. ;)

There are two problems with that. First of all, Godric tells Davos this happened at the start of the war, not at the end of it. Secondly, Ser Godric is a Vale bannerman - he has no responsibilities towards Ned, and moreso, is quite a shifty person, from what we see of him.

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Tell you the truth, i'd rather at this stage that jon was Brandon's and Ashara's and the rightful heir of winterfell, but while it explains Ned's silence to catelyn, it doesn't explain the promise to Lyanna (which caused him to live lies for 14 years as he himself recalls) or anything else at all.

Just to be very clear, I don't for a moment believe this is the truth. Just that its the obvious conclusion people (in Westeros) will come by way of the known details. So when they make assumptions about what they 'know' there are no pointers to R+L=J or ToJ. All the interesting gossipy stuff has an already clearly presented 'hidden' answer.

IMO the story isn't a lie. This is a nobody Lord on a back water Island, that nobody will admit to doing busy with, and it happened a year or more before Ned knew he needed a cover. The story is at least in some part true, likely all of it. GRRM likes to write 2 stories that run parallel.

It doesn't need to be a lie to be utterly false though. Godric can believe it totally, but be completely wrong.

At least not omnipotent at this time in the story.

Any thoughts on what Jaime, Barristan and others thought about the KG being away from KL, Dragonstone, Storm's End, the Trident, etc? There must have been some questions about what exactly their mission was.

Why?

It is no one's place to question the King's dispositions, or the man he put in charge of his dispositions, so long as the usual requirements are met - and they are.

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Why?

It is no one's place to question the King's dispositions, or the man he put in charge of his dispositions, so long as the usual requirements are met - and they are.

Maybe it's no one's place to question, but don't you think people wondered? I'm thinking especially of Jaime, Barristan and Varys. Surely Jaime and Barristan must have wondered where their KG brothers were and why? Whatever the mission was, it was important enough to leave only Jaime to guard all members of the Royal Family at the Red Keep, and Varys would want to know the details, too...no?

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SFDanny, thanks for putting this together. I had discounted Cat's observation that Jon's conception came after Robb's as unreliable. But if it's confirmed that Ned said this (I don't recall it) and/or that Robb's nameday was after Jon's (I don't recall that either) then you are almost certainly right, because I agree with you that it is extremely unlikely Ned met up with the fisherman's daughter somewhere south of Riverrun after his wedding to Cat.

No problem I hope it helps Twinslayer. To your questions, yes, Ned confirms it in his conversation with Robert where we first learn about Wylla:

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes.." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like ..."

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child." (AGoT 93)

bold emphasis added

If you're interested in the subject of character ages may I recommend a thread I started in the re-read section not very imaginatively named "Character Ages". It discusses Robb and Jon's relative ages among many others. Probably much more than anyone but me wants to know on the subject - my own private mania. At least one of them.

On your point about Wylla, if she's the fisherman's daughter, do you also think she is the same one who wound up in Dorne as Ned Dayne's wetnurse? I had not thought of this possibility before.

I think Wylla the wet nurse in Dorne is from the White Harbor region and taken to the Tower of Joy by Rhaegar or people loyal to him to, at least in part, be a wet nurse for Lyanna's expected child.

Finally, I saw your other post about the Kraken. I always thought that was a reference to Euron Greyjoy sailing around Valyria and Essos, i.e. that it was a figurative Kraken, not a literal one.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the reference. I thought Bear Island Bruiser was referring to the following quote:

The eunuch drew a parchment from his sleeve. "A kraken has been seen off the Fingers." He giggled. "Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken. It attacked an Ibbenese whaler and pulled it under. There is fighting on the Stepstones, and new war between Tyrosh and Lys seems likely. Both hope to win Myr as ally. Sailors back from the Jade Sea report that a three-headed dragon has hatched in Qarth, and is the wonder of that city -" (ASoS 216

Obviously Varys is reporting about Daenerys and her dragons, but making it seem like sailor's fantasy tales, just like a sighting of a kraken. Some people think Varys is telling the truth here about both sightings, and I thought the Bear Island Bruiser was one of them. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

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Maybe it's no one's place to question, but don't you think people wondered? I'm thinking especially of Jaime, Barristan and Varys. Surely Jaime and Barristan must have wondered where their KG brothers were and why? Whatever the mission was, it was important enough to leave only Jaime to guard all members of the Royal Family at the Red Keep, and Varys would want to know the details, too...no?

I don't think Jaime or Barristan wondered - they may have, I just don't think they would have. Neither are particularly thoughtful characters - both are more likely, it seems to me, to get on with what they are supposed to be doing and not worry about others not in their chain of command. Do-ers rather than thinkers, even if both have become a little more reflective following the events in their recent lives.

Varys, yes. Varys probably wondered. I'm sure he put together that the missing 3 KG,(or some of them at least) were protecting/guarding Lyanna. The two KG that were with Rhaegar and the man sent to find him, after Rhaegar returns without them? I'm sure Lyanna's kidnap/abduction/elopement was at least mentioned beforehand.

Others of similar inquisitive minds could also put that much together failry easily I'm sure.

But Ned bought home her bones, and returned Dayne's sword (so he must be dead). So that book is closed. And Jon Snow is clearly from Starfall, as evidenced by Ashara's suicide. So that book is closed.

No reason IMO why anyone would connect the two.

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I don't think Jaime or Barristan wondered - they may have, I just don't think they would have. Neither are particularly thoughtful characters - both are more likely, it seems to me, to get on with what they are supposed to be doing and not worry about others not in their chain of command. Do-ers rather than thinkers, even if both have become a little more reflective following the events in their recent lives.

Their KG brothers were not in their chain of command but they are all members of a small and elite group. Having Dayne and Whent gone for the better part of a year (at least) and then their LC absent for months must have strained the resources of the remaining KG at KL. When they finally discovered, as they must have, that the KG trio at the ToJ had not even gone to Dragonstone to guard Viserys, surely they must have had questions or suspicions?

Varys, yes. Varys probably wondered. I'm sure he put together that the missing 3 KG,(or some of them at least) were protecting/guarding Lyanna. The two KG that were with Rhaegar and the man sent to find him, after Rhaegar returns without them? I'm sure Lyanna's kidnap/abduction/elopement was at least mentioned beforehand.

Others of similar inquisitive minds could also put that much together failry easily I'm sure.

Varys is the one that I wonder about most. I doubt he had his network as well established as he does by the time our story opens, but really, it doesn't seem that it's very hard to put 2+2 together here. I wonder if he had any little birds at Starfall and knows more about Jon Snow than has been revealed.

But Ned bought home her bones, and returned Dayne's sword (so he must be dead). So that book is closed. And Jon Snow is clearly from Starfall, as evidenced by Ashara's suicide. So that book is closed.

No reason IMO why anyone would connect the two.

I'm sure that would satisfy the casual observer in Westeros. But I would think those more intimately involved with the situation would have a lot more questions. Anyway, there doesn't seem to be any answer given in the books so I guess we just have to "keep reading".

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