R+L=J v. 36

[Jon Icefyre]

Yes, your example is even better. We have the precedent of Rhaegar himself having a child with a dark-haired dark-eyed woman and the child had only her traits. Now, people may say that they couldn't have known from the beginning what traits the baby will develop, so what would they do if it actually had Rhaegar's. I believe the answer to that is - that's why they put up the Ned and Ashara rumor - Daynes are known for Valyrian traits, so if the child had them, they could account them to Ashara.

Yes exactly why else do you think GRRM gives us examples of kids that don't have their father's Targ traits in the egg series, and then goes on to give Rhaegar a kid that doesn't have his targ traits(Rhaenys)? It's so that when Jon finally does get revealed as Rhaegar's son GRRM has given us precedence to back up his reasoning for not giving Jon Targ traits other than for the simple fact of decieving the reader it's actually quite genius. The average reader would not figure this out their own the only reason some have is because of forums like this on the internet. The internet was not what it is now when GRRM started this series.

[FittleLinger]

Yes exactly why else do you think GRRM gives us examples of kids that don't have their father's Targ traits in the egg series, and then goes on to give Rhaegar a kid that doesn't have his targ traits(Rhaenys)? It's so that when Jon finally does get revealed as Rhaegars son GRRM has given us precedence to back up his reasoning for not giving Jon Targ traits other than for the simple fact of decieving the reader it's actually quite genius. The average reader would not figure this out their own the only reason some have is because of forums like this on the internet. The internet was not what it is now when GRRM started this series.

Yep, well there seem to be some people who don't understand this for one reason or another. And also people who think Jon cannot be Targ because he burned his hand and Targs are fireproof :ack:

So the forums are a good thing :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I just think that the R+L=J is too obvious an answer for a GRRM novel.

It's only obvious when you view it like this on a forum, where the clues are aggregated together instead of spread across multiple books and hundreds of pages. Ask 10 casual readers, who have never read a forum, who Jon's parents are, and I bet at least seven will at least say that Ned is his father.

And we do know that Jon has no Targaryen traits (for now anyway) because up to this point in the story, he has only shown very vivid Stark traits. And in these books so far, dreams and visions are a major contributor and Jon has had none of the Targaryen-type of visions and dreams.

Except that Jon does have prophetic dreams, multiple times: the feast of the dead, the Winterfell crypts, himself armored in black ice with the flaming swords, etc.

As for physical traits, we have examples of Targs who look like non-Targ parents (one of whom is Jon's own half-sister). I'd also argue that there are a few instances of Jon "waking the dragon," with bursts of anger and/or extreme emotion. His melancholy disposition at times is also curiously similar to Rhaegar himself.

I don't think it is even out of the realm that Jon Snow is the offspring of Lyanna being raped by Robert at this point during a drunken fit. And she then ran off with Rhaegar for protection from her true love. That would certainly require Ned to keep that a secret if his sister did not want Robert to know.

Doesn't fit the timeline. Based on what GRRM has said about the timeline of Jon's birth, he'd've been conceived a few months into the war — as in, when Lyanna was missing and therefore couldn't have had sex with Robert.

There are quite a few theories and none of them seem to be better than the other. I agree the R+L=J is the most dominant but to me I am not convinced yet.

Do you need convincing that the sun rises in the east, too? :P

[FittleLinger]

Do you need convincing that the sun rises in the east, too? :P

Yes, this. I don't mean to offend anyone who refuses to believe in R+L, but I think that if you do, well, it's kind of pointless to discuss any ASOIAF theory about anything since I don't think you can find a better supported one.

[Jon Icefyre]

@Apple Martini has anyone ever told you that your fuckin awesome!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

@Apple Martini has anyone ever told you that your fuckin awesome!

Yes, frequently. B)

[Black Wolf Smith]

To me, he is all Stark¹. He is even a warg so he has to have Stark in him. But the other half is not Targaryen IMO. He is all ice and no fire at all. Even his wolf has the look of the old gods that his father/Ned prayed to (all white with red eyes).¹ I believe Ned is his father. As to the mother, I think it can easily be Ashara. It sets up Jon very nicely to weild the Sword of the Morning as its heir. Also, it makes more sense that Ashara kills herself after Ned "betrays" her by taking her son away from her to protect him. Then she truly had nothing to live for.²

1. Thats almost Heresy, but even most of us heretic's believe that R+L=J and that J is legit. He will chose his Stark side over his Targ side.

2. On one post you think Ned + Ashara and the next Lyanna + Robert?

I just think that the R+L=J is too obvious an answer for a GRRM¹ novel.

And we do know that Jon has no Targaryen traits (for now anyway) because up to this point in the story, he has only shown very vivid Stark traits. And in these books so far, dreams and visions are a major contributor and Jon has had none of the Targaryen-type of visions and dreams^2a.

I don't think it is even out of the realm that Jon Snow is the offspring of Lyanna being raped by Robert at this point during a drunken fit. And she then ran off with Rhaegar for protection from her true love. That would certainly require Ned to keep that a secret if his sister did not want Robert to know.^2b

1. Did you even bother to read the page before you wrote that, me and many others Just freaking discussed that topic.

2. OK, WTF? In a) you make the argument that Jon doesn't show the traits of the Targs so he can't be a Targ. On b ) B) you make the arguement for a Baratheon, (the one family that GRRM has shown their traits over come others) even though he doesn't have any Baratheon Traits?

I cant believe weve got to 25 pages on a thread.

[Jon Icefyre]

As far as the warg thing goes, just because Jon can warg doesn't mean he's not half targ it just means he is half stark(blood of the first men). Bloodraven was half targ but he like Jon could warg because he also had the blood of the first men(from his Blackwood side). So Jon being able to warg doesn't contradict with him being half targ in the slightest, because once again there's precedence for it(Bloodraven).

[Old-Growth]

Black Wolf Smith opines:

"He will chose his Stark side over his Targ side."

To which I reply:

So far he has, but that is as much nurture as nature. He was raised from infancy by a Stark, viz. Lord Eddard. He spent his childhood and early teens in the company of Starks, in particular Robb and Arya.

What happens tho' if one of Rhaegal or Visarion accepts him as its rider? (Always assuming he survives the Ides of Marsh.) Or if other events put him in the way of his Targaryen side? Say, while he is healing someone teaches him the high harp and he starts singing sad songs on the death of kings?

And as for the 25 pages, have no fear, a mod will presently appear.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Black Wolf Smith opines:

"He will chose his Stark side over his Targ side."

To which I reply:

So far he has, but that is as much nurture as nature. He was raised from infancy by a Stark, viz. Lord Eddard. He spent his childhood and early teens in the company of Starks, in particular Robb and Arya.

What happens tho' if one of Rhaegal or Visarion accepts him as its rider? (Always assuming he survives the Ides of Marsh.) Or if other events put him in the way of his Targaryen side? Say, while he is healing someone teaches him the high harp and he starts singing sad songs on the death of kings?

And as for the 25 pages, have no fear, a mod will presently appear.

Well I am of the believe that there won't be any dragon riding to save the day. I am not sure Dany will ever make it to Westeros, or the WW are worst then the dragons.

[nothatso]

I have no idea how some of you have the patience to address the same arguments made against this theory over and over and over again. I've checked these threads frequently for years now and usually end up bugging out at the first mention of Jon's hair and eye pigment, Targaryen fire "immunity", or the theory being too cliche and obvious for a George R. R. Martin story.

:ack:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I have no idea how some of you have the patience to address the same arguments made against this theory over and over and over again. I've checked these threads frequently for years now and usually end up bugging out at the first mention of Jon's hair and eye pigment, Targaryen fire "immunity", or the theory being too cliche and obvious for a George R. R. Martin story.

:ack:

The answer to this is in my username, dearest.