R+L=J v. 36

[MtnLion]

The only way Aegon being at the tower works is if Jon is there as well.

Sorry, this is not making any sense to me at all. Ned saw Aegon's dead body at King's Landing, a bit of white hair still attached to the smashed skull. So, Ned is not going to question seeing a one year old child with white hair at the tower?

Ned thinks Aegon is dead, but if he only finds a one year old child there, guarded by three members of the Kingsguard, then he doesn't buy any story about the child being the child of a wet nurse. No, a newborn child that Ned sees as the reason for the Kingsguard's presence, along with Lyanna, has to be there if Aegon is to remain hidden.

Years later, Ned is still going to reflect on Aegon's death, and never his relief at finding the baby at the tower . . . Just not sensible.

[Bastard of Nightsong]

I dont' think it ambiguous. The key is he says "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn ..." not Jon's birth dishonored them. Ned takes responsibility, as he always does, for his action of sleeping with another woman, not blaming the birth of the child for his dishonor. I think this is a lie he is telling Robert, but still it is clear he is taking responsibility and it is confirmed in the timeline by not only Robert and his conversation here, but by Catelyn's earlier observation about Ned:

There are many ambiguous things in this story, but I don't see this as one of them. Both Ned and Catelyn are consistent in that Ned's story is Jon is conceived after he leaves Catelyn newlywed and pregnant with Robb.

<underlining mine>

Actually, Ned takes responsibility for dishonoring himself and Cat. Whether the actions which dishonored himself and his wife were one and the same? That's not so clear. While he doesn't directly attribute the dishonor to Jon's birth, neither does he specifically link it to sleeping with another woman. For those of us who believe in R+L=J, he dishonored himself by lying (largely by omission and implication) about Jon's parentage; he dishonored Cat by bringing this apparent bastard home to be raised alongside his true born children.

Yes, Ned's story is consistently that Jon is younger than Robb, having been conceived after Ned and Cat's wedding in Riverrun. However, if Ned isn't Jon's father, he would have no specific idea when Jon was conceived, and could only make a good estimate based on his birth date--a date about which he would have every reason to lie to Cat, if Jon is actually the elder.

ETA: Given the relative distances involved, it is quite likely that Jon is, in fact, older than Robb. Ned had to go to the Trident after Robb was conceived, from Riverrun. We don't know how long before the final battle Ned's wedding night was, but it is implied that the war ran to a fairly swift conclusion once 4 high lords were arrayed together against the Targs. Rhaegar, in contrast, had to travel all the way from the TOJ to King's Landing, muster the army, then march up to the Trident. And we know he didn't leave until Ser Gerold Hightower could reach the TOJ from King's Landing, leaving there after news of the disaster of the Battle of the Bells reached Aerys. That's a lot of travel time for the dragon prince.

Hmm, question for the keepers of the timeline: Do we have any reason to know if Ned and Cat's wedding was before the Battle of the Bells? I.E., did Ned march south, stop and Riverrun, have a double wedding, then go save Robert at Stoney Sept? Or did he pass through the Riverlands quickly to save Robert, then regroup to try and win Hoster Tully's aid? The proximity of Ned's wedding to the battle on the Trident is important to the question of which boy is older, because we know Jon's birth was roughly contemporaneous with the Sack.

[MtnLion]

Jon is actually the elder.

Do you have anything in particular to attribute this to in the text? What we know of puerperal fever (or childbed fever, is a bacterial infection contracted by women during childbirth or miscarriage. It can develop into puerperal sepsis, which is a serious form of septicaemia. If untreated, it is often fatal.) is that it is often fatal in less than two weeks. We know that Lyanna died of a fever. We know that she was in a birthing bed (of blood). So, Jon was born less than two weeks before Ned arrived, and Ned cannot have arrived less than a month after the fall of King's Landing. And there are other landmarks that put the fall of King's Landing at 21 months post Harrenhal, and the length of the Rebellion at about nine months (Catelynn gives birth to Robb). Robb is the elder, and was born a month or two before Jon who was born 8-9 months before Daenerys.

[The guy from the Vale]

ETA: Given the relative distances involved, it is quite likely that Jon is, in fact, elder than Robb. Ned had to go to the Trident after Robb was conceived, from Riverrun. We don't know how long before the final battle Ned's wedding night was, but it is implied that the war ran to a fairly swift conclusion once 4 high lords were arrayed together against the Targs. Rhaegar, in contrast, had to travel all the way from the TOJ to King's Landing, muster the army, then march up to the Trident. And we know he didn't leave until Ser Gerold Hightower could reach the TOJ from King's Landing, leaving there after news of the disaster of the Battle of the Bells reached Aerys. That's a lot of travel time for the dragon prince.

Hmm, question for the keepers of the timeline: Do we have any reason to know if Ned and Cat's wedding was before the Battle of the Bells? I.E., did Ned march south, stop and Riverrun, have a double wedding, then go save Robert at Stoney Sept? Or did he pass through the Riverlands quickly to save Robert, then regroup to try and win Hoster Tully's aid? The proximity of Ned's wedding to the battle on the Trident is important to the question of which boy is older, because we know Jon's birth was roughly contemporaneous with the Sack.

Yes, Ned's and Cat's wedding was before the Battle of the Bells. Hoster Tully refused to join the rebellion until his two daughters were married, and he was a participant in the Battle of the Bells. So, Cat and Ned must have had married by that time.

[SFDanny]

Sorry, this is not making any sense to me at all. Ned saw Aegon's dead body at King's Landing, a bit of white hair still attached to the smashed skull. So, Ned is not going to question seeing a one year old child with white hair at the tower? Years later, Ned is still going to reflect on Aegon's death, and never his relief at finding the baby at the tower . . . Just not sensible.

I'm pretty sure you've read my posts on this subject before, but I'll be happy to go over it again. We have both the evidence of Egg's shaved head and Young Griff's dyed hair to show us how easy it is to disguise a child with these Targaryen features. Why people would assume a smuggled child would not be disguised is beyond me. Ned is likely to believe a story told to him by a wet nurse telling him she was brought to the tower to tend to Lyanna and her baby - quite likely true btw. And he would likely believe a wet nurse who tells him the one year old bald baby or a one year old infant with dyed hair is hers. Women who serve as wet nurses at some point have their own child. It goes with the job, so Ned would have no reason to disbelieve her story. Ned taking Wylla (or so I assume is the identity of the wet nurse in question) and Lyanna's child and a disguised Aegon to Starfall fits right in with what Ned did do, and what Ned would likely do given those circumstances. As far as years later, why would he question the story? If the child disappears after Ned leaves Starfall how would he know? Would the Daynes tell him? Or Wylla who lies to him to save the child? Not a chance. If this scenario is true, Ned Stark dies believing Aegon is dead and was laid at Robert's feet by Tywin Lannister.

[LadyMary]

Sometimes I wonder if Ned even told Robert anything — whether he actually said, "Rhaegar killed Lyanna," or if he came back with her bones and just said, "Lyanna is dead" and let Robert draw his own conclusions, never bothering to correct him or elaborate. I'm thinking that the more Ned talked, the likelier it was that something about Lyanna's pregnancy would accidentally slip. The thing about Ned is, he doesn't really lie unless he absolutely has to. Even when Catelyn asked about Jon, all Ned said was, "He is of my blood," or something. Didn't really even confirm that Jon was his son; just a conclusion that Catelyn and everyone else drew.

I don't think Ned had to lie overtly about exactly what happened at the ToJ as he did to claim his sister's son as his own bastard. He could omit certain details and let Robert fill in the blanks in his rage-addled mind. Robert had to know that losing Lyanna was painful for Ned and not something to interrogate him about, so Ned can get away with letting Robert assume what happened. Robert thinks he knows his friend well enough to not to push the subject, and has no reason to ask more probing questions. What Robert doesn't know is that Ned is capable of overt lying or obfuscation when necessary to protect those he loves - including Robert himself.

[SFDanny]

Yes, Ned's and Cat's wedding was before the Battle of the Bells. Hoster Tully refused to join the rebellion until his two daughters were married, and he was a participant in the Battle of the Bells. So, Cat and Ned must have had married by that time.

Actually, no, the dual wedding takes place after the Battle of the Bells. We know this because one of the reasons Catelyn thinks Jon agreed to the wedding is because of the death of his heir at Stony Sept.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I'm pretty sure you've read my posts on this subject before, but I'll be happy to go over it again. We have both the evidence of Egg's shaved head and Young Griff's dyed hair to show us how easy it is to disguise a child with these Targaryen features. Why people would assume a smuggled child would not be disguised is beyond me. Ned is likely to believe a story told to him by a wet nurse telling him she was brought to the tower to tend to Lyanna and her baby - quite likely true btw. And he would likely believe a wet nurse who tells him the one year old bald baby or a one year old infant with dyed hair is hers. Women who serve as wet nurses at some point have their own child. It goes with the job, so Ned would have no reason to disbelieve her story. Ned taking Wylla (or so I assume is the identity of the wet nurse in question) and Lyanna's child and a disguised Aegon to Starfall fits right in with what Ned did do, and what Ned would likely do given those circumstances. As far as years later, why would he question the story? If the child disappears after Ned leaves Starfall how would he know? Would the Daynes tell him? Or Wylla who lies to him to save the child? Not a chance. If this scenario is true, Ned Stark dies believing Aegon is dead and was laid at Robert's feet by Tywin Lannister.

If Young Griff is real this could be what happened.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Actually, no, the dual wedding takes place after the Battle of the Bells. We know this because one of the reasons Catelyn thinks Jon agreed to the wedding is because of the death of his heir at Stony Sept.

Wasn't Cat married before Lyssa?

[MtnLion]

Ned taking Wylla (or so I assume is the identity of the wet nurse in question) and Lyanna's child and a disguised Aegon to Starfall fits right in with what Ned did do, and what Ned would likely do given those circumstances.

And, if Ned takes Ashara's child back to her, she is going to go into a suicidal depression? Cater to my theory, and I will cater to yours. :P

There is no motivation to take Aegon away from the safety of King's Landing. Someone suggests Rhaegar wanted to keep him safe from Aerys, but that doesn't stand up, because Rhaegar would have moved the other head of the dragon, Rhaenys as well.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

She didn't! She faked her death & went on to train Aego as Septa Lemore. Uh never mind. :shocked:

[The guy from the Vale]

Actually, no, the dual wedding takes place after the Battle of the Bells. We know this because one of the reasons Catelyn thinks Jon agreed to the wedding is because of the death of his heir at Stony Sept.

I thought Jon's heir died when Aerys went bonkers and had Brandon and his entourage (which included Jon's heir) killed?

[SFDanny]

<underlining mine>

Actually, Ned takes responsibility for dishonoring himself and Cat. Whether the actions which dishonored himself and his wife were one and the same? That's not so clear. While he doesn't directly attribute the dishonor to Jon's birth, neither does he specifically link it to sleeping with another woman.

Yes he does. Reread the quote. He is telling Robert he dishonored Catelyn with Wylla, who he names. Sorry, folks this isn't even close to not being clear. Now, I think he's lying his ass off to Robert when he says this, but the story he tells Robert is consistent with the timing he tells Catelyn.

For those of us who believe in R+L=J, he dishonored himself by lying (largely by omission and implication) about Jon's parentage; he dishonored Cat by bringing this apparent bastard home to be raised alongside his true born children.

You speak for all of those who believe in R+L+J? Funny, over the years I've argued for that interpretation of events in the series I don't recall saying you could speak for me. While he certainly dishonors Cat in many people's mind, not least of all Cat's own, by bringing Jon home to Winterfell to be raised along their own children, that isn't the dishonor Ned is talking about with Robert. He specifically talks about how he had married Cat and she was carrying his child (i.e. Robb) when he dishonors her. There is no doubt here, that Ned's story is he slept with Wylla after he left Catelyn pregnant following their marriage at Riverrun.

Yes, Ned's story is consistently that Jon is younger than Robb, having been conceived after Ned and Cat's wedding in Riverrun. However, if Ned isn't Jon's father, he would have no specific idea when Jon was conceived, and could only make a good estimate based on his birth date--a date about which he would have every reason to lie to Cat, if Jon is actually the elder.

The latter is point I've made many times myself. Ned would have reason to lie about Jon's name day if it is too close to the events at the Tower of Joy and Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. That doesn't necessarily translate to him using a name day for Jon that makes a older Jon younger than Robb. Only that it is possible. He could change Jon's name day to protect him even if he is born, in reality, after Robb.

ETA: Given the relative distances involved, it is quite likely that Jon is, in fact, older than Robb. Ned had to go to the Trident after Robb was conceived, from Riverrun. We don't know how long before the final battle Ned's wedding night was, but it is implied that the war ran to a fairly swift conclusion once 4 high lords were arrayed together against the Targs. Rhaegar, in contrast, had to travel all the way from the TOJ to King's Landing, muster the army, then march up to the Trident. And we know he didn't leave until Ser Gerold Hightower could reach the TOJ from King's Landing, leaving there after news of the disaster of the Battle of the Bells reached Aerys. That's a lot of travel time for the dragon prince.

Hmm, question for the keepers of the timeline: Do we have any reason to know if Ned and Cat's wedding was before the Battle of the Bells? I.E., did Ned march south, stop and Riverrun, have a double wedding, then go save Robert at Stoney Sept? Or did he pass through the Riverlands quickly to save Robert, then regroup to try and win Hoster Tully's aid? The proximity of Ned's wedding to the battle on the Trident is important to the question of which boy is older, because we know Jon's birth was roughly contemporaneous with the Sack.

You are answering your own question. There are months between the Battle of the Bells and the Trident. It is likely Rhaegar is back in King's Landing for 4-6 months before the Trident takes place. If Jon is going to pass a younger than Robb, he has to be somewhat close in age to him. A story that has him conceived after the Battle of the Bells, if it is to be believable, can't have a child who is three to six months older masquerading as younger. Cat isn't stupid and neither is Varys.

[SFDanny]

I thought Jon's heir died when Aerys went bonkers and had Brandon and his entourage (which included Jon's heir) killed?

Different heir. Jon's nephew and heir Elbert Arryn dies just as you say. Jon's cousin and heir following Elbert, Ser Denys Arryn, dies at the Battle of the Bells by the hand of Jon Connington.

[Dma2282]

From now on I'm calling these threads Rhianna=J.

[MtnLion]

Different heir. Jon's nephew and heir Elbert Arryn dies just as you say. Jon's cousin and heir following Elbert, Ser Denys Arryn, dies at the Battle of the Bells by the hand of Jon Connington.

After Elbert was murdered Jon designated Denys as heir, but that does not mean that he had not married Lysa at that point. Ned and Jon married the Tully girls to secure Hoster's support during the war, and I am pretty sure that includes the support that they took to the Battle of the Bells with them.

[_SwordOfTheMorning]

Ashara seems to be a very popular and somewhat misunderstood character. I think an Ashara reread should be considered. It would be a long and tedious project, what with her handful of mentions in the entire text, but I'm hoping someone will take on this very important task.

jokes, jokes. Sorta.

I don't know if anyone linked you to this yet

But someone already took the task on:

[Shane snow]

If John dies and then is brought back to life then would his vows to NW be ended because in the oath they say til my death.. So technically would he be able to marry and everything else

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Night watch will be disbanded, then he could do whatever he likes.

[MtnLion]

If John dies and then is brought back to life then would his vows to NW be ended because in the oath they say til my death.. So technically would he be able to marry and everything else

Jon can be freed of his vows by the king. We have King Stannis, and we have King Robb. Robb was fully aware of Jon's status, but did not have a male heir, so Robb frees Jon of his vows, and appoints him heir to the crown and Winterfell.