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R+L=J v. 36


Stubby

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We don't know. But whatever it was, it had to be sufficient enough that no one went digging too deeply into it.

My money would be on the "they didn't know what was going on out there, Rhaegar told them to stay there, so they did". It is a really good excuse. Or that they didn't know what happened to Viserys. Or they didn't know Rhaegar and Aerys died.

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I think that R+L=J is true. However, the one big weakness in my faith is that In A Game Of Thrones in a Ned chapter it goes "For the first time in years, he found himself remebering Rhaegar Targaryen."

If Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son, surely Ned would have thought about Rhaegar often?

Now, Ned had definitely thought about Rhaegar earlier within the book and had had several conversations about him with Robert so that thought is not fully true. Also, surely Ned would have thought about the guy who kidnapped his beloved sister often anyway, so it says more about Ned's ability to compartmentalise than evidence against R+L=J.

With those caveats, that comment makes me less sure about R+L=J than I would be otherwise. What do others think about this comment?

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I think that R+L=J is true. However, the one big weakness in my faith is that In A Game Of Thrones in a Ned chapter it goes "For the first time in years, he found himself remebering Rhaegar Targaryen."

If Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son, surely Ned would have thought about Rhaegar often?

Now, Ned had definitely thought about Rhaegar earlier within the book and had had several conversations about him with Robert so that thought is not fully true. Also, surely Ned would have thought about the guy who kidnapped his beloved sister often anyway, so it says more about Ned's ability to compartmentalise than evidence against R+L=J.

With those caveats, that comment makes me less sure about R+L=J than I would be otherwise. What do others think about this comment?

Remembering a person, what they did, how they did things is one thing, thinking about them in reference to something is another. He can look at Jon and think Rhaegar's son, though more likely he thought Lyanna's, without remembering Rhaegar.
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I've been wondering about one thing for quite some time. Is it possible that Jon Arryn knew about Jon's mother? And if R+L=J is true, is it possible he knew about it too? Jon Arryn and Ned were very close.

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I've been wondering about one thing for quite some time. Is it possible that Jon Arryn knew about Jon's mother? And if R+L=J is true, is it possible he knew about it too? Jon Arryn and Ned were very close.

No, not likely. Ned kept the secret from everyone, he couldn't risk anyone knowing...

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I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Benjen or Jon Arryn knew, and it was one of them who started the rumour about Ashara in the North as a contingency plan, in case baby Jon started developing Targ features (ie. if he had blue eyes as a baby and they turned purple instead of grey). Someone had to lie for Ned, since he was so notoriously bad at it himself. That said, I don't think Ned would have told anyone outright, but someone close to him and Lyanna may have figured it out and decided to help him without ever discussing it.

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I think Benjen knew (maybe that's why he joined the NW, plus the grief of Lyanna's death) but I'm not sure about Jon Arryn. But I agree that someone had to lie for Ned. It's interesting that Robert believed that Wylla was Jon's mother and not Ashara.

Thank goodness Jon grew up as a "Stark to the bone" if he ended up being a blonde...

This doubt is driving me mad, was Wylla really Jon's wetnurse? How did that happen? I mean, when did Ned take Jon there?

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Yes I do think Wylla was Jon's wetnurse. Ned either grabbed her at Starfall to get Jon north or she was the wet nurse at the ToJ.

It has been hinted at that Arthur was in on this whole ToJ scenario with Rhaegar from the get go so it may be possible some of House Dayne knows more than we think they do and Wylla apparently stayed employed with the Daynes long enough to 'wean' Ned Dayne.

I think Benjen knew his sister and knows that Ned would NEVER sire a bastard. I think at the very least he suspects Jon is the son of Lyanna, but I would think he is (or was?) definitely in the know.

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I think maybe Wylla was with Lyanna in ToJ. Arthur Dayne was the best knight but I highly doubt Rheagare would let him to take care of pregnant Lyanna and her baby.

Yes I do think Wylla was Jon's wetnurse. Ned either grabbed her at Starfall to get Jon north or she was the wet nurse at the ToJ.

It has been hinted at that Arthur was in on this whole ToJ scenario with Rhaegar from the get go so it may be possible some of House Dayne knows more than we think they do and Wylla apparently stayed employed with the Daynes long enough to 'wean' Ned Dayne.

I think Benjen knew his sister and knows that Ned would NEVER sire a bastard. I think at the very least he suspects Jon is the son of Lyanna, but I would think he is (or was?) definitely in the know.

Thanks guys.

I'm dying to know what happened to Benjen and I hope he isn't dead (if he is not I have no idea of where he's been hiding).

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I think Benjen definitly knows the truth. I doubt that Jon Arryn knew it.

I thinnk that Benjen and Lyanna were close and maybe he even helped her to escape and later went to the NW out of guilt.

@ those guys who are good with the time line. I know that Benjen stayed at Winterfell during the war, but do we know where he was when Lyanna was "abducted"?

I'm dying to know what happened to Benjen and I hope he isn't dead (if he is not I have no idea of where he's been hiding).

Their are a couple of disscussions and theoris about that topic.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68002-is-benjen-stark-dead-or-alive/

The most common theories I know are:

He´s Coldhands.

He´s dead (because Mormont´s raven said so.

He´s an Other/ in league with the Others (that´s what I believe).

He is living somehere (north of the Wall) with his kids and his (wildling)wife.

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I think it's pretty clear that were the situation reversed, i.e. the house belonged to the slaves and the slaver moved in, her ruling would also be reversed. I believe that it is not supposed to be based on some legal precedence for losing rights, nor to establish one, but as a glaring example of injustice which should come back and bite her in her ass at a point in the future.

We're not discussing "someone", we're discussing the KG, following the same set of rules as Barristan, and as I mentioned above, following them actually more precisely than Barristan.

I was actually trying to avoid comparing Barristan with the other three Kingsguard (Hightower & Co.) because they are not similarly situated. Hightower & Co. had different orders than Barristan (i.e., specific orders to be at the TOJ) and they had different information (they knew about Jon and it is possible they had Aegon with them). Barristan's situation was more similar to Willem Darry's. Darry and Barristan both thought Aegon was dead and neither of them knew about Jon. So Darry was guarding the man they both believed to be the Targ heir (Viserys). Darry chose to stay with Viserys and Barristan chose to switch sides. That is interesting to me because I think both Darry and Barristan were honorable men who were trying to do what they thought was right given the circumstances they found themselves in. I think it plays into one of GRRM's themes that often there is no simple right or wrong answer to these questions.

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SFDanny & Ygraine -- I obviously need to take another look at Barristan's thoughts on this. But even if we can rule out Barristan thinking that Viserys effectively abdicated I don't think we can say it is at all unlikely that someone in Barristan's position would believe what I am suggesting.

I'd say what you're proposing makes perfect sense as part of rebel justifications to explain why they were right in seizing the throne. As some kind of guide to loyalists, most especially members of the kingsguard, it makes little sense at all. We are not talking about a constitutional democracy here. For the Kingsguard, the state and the king are one and the same. Their loyalty is a very personal thing. To the person of the king, and to his heir after he dies. In that regard Selmy is very much the traitor he thinks he is, but then sometimes treason is the moral path.

As another poster in the abdication thread pointed out, Dany mediated the following dispute in Meereen:

"A rich woman came, whose husband and sons had died defending the city walls. During the sack she had fled to her brother in fear. When she returned, she found her house had been turned into a brothel. The whores had bedecked themselves in her jewels and clothes. She wanted her house back, and her jewels. “They can keep the clothes,” she allowed. Dany granted her the jewels but ruled the house was lost when she abandoned it."

That strikes me as a pretty good metaphor for what Vyseris did when he fled, i.e., he abandoned his kingdom.

This is Martin's little ironic twist telling us once again life is full of shades of gray and very little solid black or white. Daenerys is searching for a way to do justice and is bound by her own decrees of amnesty. To do so she has to side with the rebels of Meereen against the old order. Martin is telling us, imo, that justice ain't easy nor always consistent.

Now, this does raise an issue of timing. The real world precedent I cited was James II and his young son, who were held to abdicate when they fled England for the Continent. I think there would be a decent argument that when Viserys went to Dragonstone, he did not flee the kingdom -- i.e., that it was not until he left Dragonstone for Essos that he abandoned his rights. Of course, the counter-argument would be that the Targaryens invaded the Seven Kingdoms from Dragonstone, so when the fled Westeros for Dragonstone, the process was reversed. So if we are looking at Barristan's decision, it's much cleaner if he went over to Robert after Vyseris fled to Essos. If Barristan went over to Robert (and became LC of Robert's Kingsguard!) while the war was still going on, it is a little harder to justify his actions on this basis.

I think you look at this too much like a international lawyer in present day rather than what is Selmy's character and the oath he is sworn to live by.

I do think SFDanny's moral question is an interesting take on this. Of course, it raises another question -- if Barristan had refused Robert's pardon, would he have been permitted to go to Dany and Viserys? Or would he be serving on the Wall (or dead) instead?

Probably dead, but for the Kingsguard that's part of the gig.

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I think Benjen definitly knows the truth. I doubt that Jon Arryn knew it.

I thinnk that Benjen and Lyanna were close and maybe he even helped her to escape and later went to the NW out of guilt.

@ those guys who are good with the time line. I know that Benjen stayed at Winterfell during the war, but do we know where he was when Lyanna was "abducted"?

Their are a couple of disscussions and theoris about that topic.

http://asoiaf.wester...en-stark-alive/

http://asoiaf.wester...-dead-or-alive/

http://asoiaf.wester...k-benjens-gone/

http://asoiaf.wester...s-benjen-stark/

The most common theories I know are:

He´s Coldhands.

He´s dead (because Mormont´s raven said so.

He´s an Other/ in league with the Others (that´s what I believe).

He is living somehere (north of the Wall) with his kids and his (wildling)wife.

Thanks a lot for the links, Lady :). I thought he was Coldhands but then Bran would recognize his voice...

I've found this:

Aerys sent Rhaegar to pursue and unveil the Knight of the Laughing Tree. If that was, in fact, Lyanna in disguise, they may have gone off together then or made arrangements to meet somewhere later. I don't think it's explicitly laid out when they disappear.

Here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61950-how-did-rhaegar-kidnaprunaway-with-lyanna/

I need to have a closer look at that topic myself.

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Thank goodness Jon grew up as a "Stark to the bone" if he ended up being a blonde...

That's exactly why I think the Ashara rumour was started. If Jon did end up with blonde hair and violet eyes, and there was a rumour going around that Ashara Dayne, a woman with Targ features, was the mother, no one would jump to the conclusion that he was one of Rhaegar's kids. They would think Jon was Dayne to the bone instead. The fact that Ashara was not around to say otherwise and was known to have been visited by Ned shortly after she had given birth would have only strengthened the legitimacy of the rumour had Jon grown up with pale hair and violet eyes.

Someone extremely cluey must have started the rumour, and while I think Benjen or even Howland Reed was the instigator, Jon Arryn at least deserves a mention since he has shown a knack for guessing secret lineages in the past.

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I think Benjen definitly knows the truth. I doubt that Jon Arryn knew it.

I thinnk that Benjen and Lyanna were close and maybe he even helped her to escape and later went to the NW out of guilt.

@ those guys who are good with the time line. I know that Benjen stayed at Winterfell during the war, but do we know where he was when Lyanna was "abducted"?

Their are a couple of disscussions and theoris about that topic.

http://asoiaf.wester...en-stark-alive/

http://asoiaf.wester...-dead-or-alive/

http://asoiaf.wester...k-benjens-gone/

http://asoiaf.wester...s-benjen-stark/

The most common theories I know are:

He´s Coldhands.

He´s dead (because Mormont´s raven said so.

He´s an Other/ in league with the Others (that´s what I believe).

He is living somehere (north of the Wall) with his kids and his (wildling)wife.

There is also the theory that he is being held prisoner.
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Someone extremely cluey must have started the rumour, and while I think Benjen or even Howland Reed was the instigator, Jon Arryn at least deserves a mention since he has shown a knack for guessing secret lineages in the past.

In the future. We are talking about the events of Robert's Rebellion long before those of AGoT.

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