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R+L=J v. 36


Stubby

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Actually I think Brandon Stark was the father of the stillborn girl -- based on a Selmy chapter in ADwD... it's been a while since my last re-read -- but I never got that Ned was the father, just Brandon...

Did the app reveal something different?

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You're totally right, but at the same time (and here we're getting into the psychology/personality of characters we don't know nearly enough about) if I were Robert and truly loved Lyanna* then I would want to know exactly how she died.

I agree with Lady Mary and with you. I think it is clear from the discussion in the crypts that Ned has given Robert some explanation of how Lyanna died. I also think Robert was ready to believe any story that made Rhaegar look bad.

I do think Lyanna died as a result of childbirth. It is possible Ned told Robert that -- indeed, Robert believes Rhaegar repeatedly raped Lyanna, Robert knows Rhaegar is fertile (because Rhaegar already had two children), and he would have no reason to think Lyanna would not have been pregnant. But if Ned told Robert that Lyanna got pregnant, then he must have said that the baby died too.

Which gets back to your point -- why didn't Robert put two and two together and realize Jon was Lyanna's?

Which gets us to one of Niamh's points -- Robert was good at being in denial.

Is it possible Robert knew, subconciously, that R+L=J, but chose to turn a blind eye?

Alternatively, if Ned told Robert some other story about how Lyanna died, I'm very curious what it might have been, because I think it would be one of the lies Ned has been living with for 14 years.

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Actually I think Brandon Stark was the father of the stillborn girl -- based on a Selmy chapter in ADwD... it's been a while since my last re-read -- but I never got that Ned was the father, just Brandon...

Did the app reveal something different?

Well I suppose that is a good theory too; I hadn't picked up on Brandon, but since it seems he liked to go around, it's perfectly possible

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Did the app reveal something different?

I wish people wouldn't put so much faith in "the app." It wasn't written by or edited by GRMM. Sure the guy asked GRRM questions, but without knowing what questions.... Yes it's probably right about 90% of what it states (like the contents of Robb's will, or that Rickon is at Skagos.) But those were things already almost spelled out in the text. (like that brienne yelled "Sword." It's fucking telegraphed to you, yet somehow there was a debate even after the last book came out.) In terms of things that aren't meant to be revealed yet, you can't expect GRMM to give the information out via an iPhone app.

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Is it possible Robert knew, subconciously, that R+L=J, but chose to turn a blind eye?

Alternatively, if Ned told Robert some other story about how Lyanna died, I'm very curious what it might have been, because I think it would be one of the lies Ned has been living with for 14 years.

no. Robert in this case would kill the child.

it's still also entirely possible Lyanna died of battle wounds after all, we know she was very good with a sword and an outstanding rider, with no respect of supposed female behaviour, like Arya

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no. Robert in this case would kill the child.

Again, psychology/we don't really know him/blah blah.

I don't think he would. I think he MIGHT and that honestly it would come down to how drunk he was at the moment someone asked him* "what shall we do with this...dragonspawn?" Sure he hated Rheagar, but he loved Lyanna and the child was part of both of them. (Yes I realized any memory of this union would upset him.) He also had Ned there to temper his....temper. He might have wanted to murder Jon, but once Ned said something about "You'd murder my sister's son" I think he would have restrained himself and done one of two things.

1) send the child north with Ned "to never be spoken of again" / join the watch eventually

2) Kept the child close as a page and then a squire. He likely would have have treated him with contempt, or who knows he might have ended up loving him more than "his own" children.

Either way he would have kept the child a secret and maintained that Lyanna loved only him and was raped for his own pride's sake.

*I made a similar point recently in a thread asking "what if Robert had come back from his boar hunt." I could see Robert killing Cersei, I could see him killing Joffery. (the kid vivisected a pregnant cat.) I could not see him murdering Mycella and to a lesser extent Tommen in cold blood. But again I think it would come down to how drunk he was at the time.

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Well I suppose that is a good theory too; I hadn't picked up on Brandon, but since it seems he liked to go around, it's perfectly possible

Yeah, that was my impression... doesn't sound like something Eddard would do--but perfectly in the realm of possibility for Brandon :)

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Again, psychology/we don't really know him/blah blah.

I don't think he would....................

I think you need to do a careful re-read.

@ipsuel, Eddard and Ashara were in love though. Also I'm not sure about the subsequent timing if Brandon was involved with Ashara.

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I knew Reed knows, maybe Wylla (but why would you tell a nursemaid...)

I think a wetnurse/midwife/servant would notice that the baby Ned is carrying around is the same exact one that Lyanna gave birth to a few days prior. The 3 KG and 10 of Ned's men were killed and Lyanna died, but there really isn't any indication that whatever servants were there were also put to the sword.

I'm also not convinced that Ned's honor and honesty were so widely known and admired. By those who knew him well or the people of the north, sure. Most people had no problem accepting that he had fathered a bastard. When he was declared a traitor you never heard the smallfolk expressing shock that the "honorable Lord Stark" would do such a thing. The people who would be piecing this theory together probably would not have disregarded it on the basis that "Ned Stark was to honest to lie."

Not really sure what your point is here. His Northern lords did not question him, obviously. Robert knew him to be honest and did not question his story. Same with Jon Arryn. The Tullys seemed familiar enough to not have any need to question. Obviously the Lannisters are better served to not question regardless of what they may think or know. Greyjoys don't give a fuck. That leaves the Tyrells and Martells. The Martells don't seem to know one way or the other and same with the Tyrells. Seems apart from Martells and Tyrells, all the other major houses trusted Ned enough to tell the truth.

As far as when Ned's declared a traitor, one of the reasons they have Ned stand up at the Sept of Baelor and recant his Joffrey story is because it was enough for Ned to say that he was wrong. Any other traitor just goes to the execution block. Ned's reputation was helpful to the throne in quelling incest/bastard rumors.

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I know this sounds weird and 'out there' but when Sam is in Oldtown and they mention that Lord Hightower hasn't left his tower in years makes me wonder if he put the pieces together... I believe his son or brother was the LC of the KG at the time of the rebellion?

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I think a wetnurse/midwife/servant would notice that the baby Ned is carrying around is the same exact one that Lyanna gave birth to a few days prior. The 3 KG and 10 of Ned's men were killed and Lyanna died, but there really isn't any indication that whatever servants were there were also put to the sword.

Not really sure what your point is here. His Northern lords did not question him, obviously. Robert knew him to be honest and did not question his story. Same with Jon Arryn. The Tullys seemed familiar enough to not have any need to question. Obviously the Lannisters are better served to not question regardless of what they may think or know. Greyjoys don't give a fuck. That leaves the Tyrells and Martells. The Martells don't seem to know one way or the other and same with the Tyrells. Seems apart from Martells and Tyrells, all the other major houses trusted Ned enough to tell the truth.

As far as when Ned's declared a traitor, one of the reasons they have Ned stand up at the Sept of Baelor and recant his Joffrey story is because it was enough for Ned to say that he was wrong. Any other traitor just goes to the execution block. Ned's reputation was helpful to the throne in quelling incest/bastard rumors.

Dr. Pepper, I agree with you about Ned's reputation for honor. I was looking not long ago about the question whether "Stark" was synonomous with "honor" and I came accross this. When Renly dies, Robar Royce (whose family knew Ned personally) lets Catelyn and Brienne go. But he hesitates until Catelyn swears on Ned's grave and her "Stark honor." As soon as Catelyn says this, Robar is convinced. I don't know whether this means that all Starks were considered honourable (particularly in light of some of the things we know Brandon Stark did) but I do take this to mean that Ned had that reputation.

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Robert had 16 bastards. Connington captured Red Ronnet's bastard in his castle, Bolton acknowledges his.....The Lannisters probably ignore theirs.....Noble men will beget bastards, that's the way of it, nobody was going to question it anyway. The only thing some have questioned, is the status of Jon in Winterfell which is above and beyond that of a common bastard. If not for Catelyn's hatred, he simply would have been brought up as a trueborn son, same as the others. Ned is fairly snobbish all in all that we see, so in fact that is another point against a common mother for Jon.

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Robert had 16 bastards. Connington captured Red Ronnet's bastard in his castle, Bolton acknowledges his.....The Lannisters probably ignore theirs.....Noble men will beget bastards, that's the way of it, nobody was going to question it anyway. The only thing some have questioned, is the status of Jon in Winterfell which is above and beyond that of a common bastard. If not for Catelyn's hatred, he simply would have been brought up as a trueborn son, same as the others. Ned is fairly snobbish all in all that we see, so in fact that is another point against a common mother for Jon.

I have been wondering about this, too. Catelyn suggests that the normal thing with bastards is to provide for them but keep them out of sight. She thinks it is very unusual for Ned to bring his bastard to Winterfell. And Robert seems to keep all of his bastards, except Edric Storm, out of sight. But Walder Frey has no trouble keeping bastards in his castle, and the Sand Snakes appear to have some status in Dorne. Daemon Blackfyre, Bloodraven and the other "Great Bastards" enjoyed high status. So I don't know whether Catelyn's views on bastards were unusual or not.

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Not really sure what your point is here. His Northern lords did not question him, obviously. Robert knew him to be honest and did not question his story. Same with Jon Arryn. The Tullys seemed familiar enough to not have any need to question. Obviously the Lannisters are better served to not question regardless of what they may think or know. Greyjoys don't give a fuck. That leaves the Tyrells and Martells. The Martells don't seem to know one way or the other and same with the Tyrells. Seems apart from Martells and Tyrells, all the other major houses trusted Ned enough to tell the truth.

As far as when Ned's declared a traitor, one of the reasons they have Ned stand up at the Sept of Baelor and recant his Joffrey story is because it was enough for Ned to say that he was wrong. Any other traitor just goes to the execution block. Ned's reputation was helpful to the throne in quelling incest/bastard rumors.

I see your point about Ned's confession quelling doubt. As for the first part I meant more that individual people would figure it out, not that a great house would. I was thinking more someone like Varys.

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There are some who definitely know, yes. Howland Reed for certain, Wylla or whatever wetnurse/midwife/servant who was with them. My assumption is that some might have figured it out. Ned's clash with the missing KG, specifically Arthur Dayne, is also known as evidenced by Cersei's comments while they talked in the godswood.

Ned's clash with the KG is not known about.

People know he must have killed Arthur Dayne somehow, or found him dead, because he returned Dawn to Starfall. But no one other than those who were there know about the fight at ToJ.

The beauty of it, though, is that Ned has a very strong reputation of honor and honesty. His honesty is so well known and respected that if he says that Jon is his son, then no one is going to question it. It's the perfect curtain in which to hide Jon (in plain view) and also to prevent anyone from really questioning him about where and how Lyanna died. It helps that his movements prior to and during the war offers extra fuel for the rumor mill.

While this is true 15 years later, at the time of the war Ned was a 20 year old nobody second son. Outside of Winterfell and the Vale, his reputation was surely forged only later.

*Why did he love her? It's not even clear when he met her or why exactly he cared so much. Maybe he did spend considerable time with her and respected her as an (almost) "warrior woman." It's also possible that he wanted to marry Ned's sister more due to his love for Ned (not a Renly/Loras love, but a desire for Ned to be his brother/join their houses. ) Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't believe he loved her truly at all. But she was his 'property' and he idolised the thought of her (much more after she was stolen), not the truth of her.

His behaviour at Harrenhal is evidence of how much he truly cared for her. There is no note of him paying her the slightest attention. Instead he's drinking Ser Richard Lonmouth under the table and drunkenly threatening the KotLT after Aerys' proclaimation of "no firend of the king'.

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And SanSan is smartly out of the stalls,R+L+J taking up a smart position near the rails,Heresy is slowly out with Sansaareread taking up the rear.

As we turn King's Bend,R+L=J puts it's nose in front.SanSan and Sansaareread are neck and neck.Heresy seems to be lagging.

And over the ditch known as Storm of Swords,it's still R+L=J in front,SanSan is slipping backwards,Sansaarearead is holding on doggedly,and Heresy is still hanging in.

Two fences to go,A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons;R+L+J clears the first easily,Sansaareread stumbles allowing Heresy,who jumped it like a stag,to make up several lengths.

As we near ADWD,Heresy is grinding it out,but R+L=J jumps the last a length clear.

R+L=J has it's whip out and Heresy appears to have sprouted wings,and as they near the line,it's R+L=J,it's Heresy.It's a photo finish.......

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I have been wondering about this, too. Catelyn suggests that the normal thing with bastards is to provide for them but keep them out of sight. She thinks it is very unusual for Ned to bring his bastard to Winterfell. And Robert seems to keep all of his bastards, except Edric Storm, out of sight. But Walder Frey has no trouble keeping bastards in his castle, and the Sand Snakes appear to have some status in Dorne. Daemon Blackfyre, Bloodraven and the other "Great Bastards" enjoyed high status. So I don't know whether Catelyn's views on bastards were unusual or not.

It's not that it's that unusual, it's that it seems to be unusual in Winterfell at least. I don't see a famous Snow Stark in the crypts or on the wall or anywhere in history.

it's that type of thing that isn't a clue, and no proff at all, but that we can keep wondering about for years

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I see your point about Ned's confession quelling doubt. As for the first part I meant more that individual people would figure it out, not that a great house would. I was thinking more someone like Varys.

I think it's likely that quite a few minor folks, especially smallfolk, have a pretty good idea who Jon's true parents are. The intel just isn't useful to those who know. I lean towards Varys maybe assuming the truth, but it's in Varys interest not to say anything. I think Littlefinger definitely doesn't know as it would be in his interest to tell everyone to create even more chaos and discord.

Ned's clash with the KG is not known about.

People know he must have killed Arthur Dayne somehow, or found him dead, because he returned Dawn to Starfall. But no one other than those who were there know about the fight at ToJ.

Cersei says to Ned, "Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?" There's a possibility that there was another Dayne sibling that we don't know about, though that seems unlikely. I think this one comment strongly suggests that it's known that Ned and Arthur clashed. I didn't say anything about about someone specifically knowing that Arthur and Ned clashed at the TOJ. I was merely pointing out there is at least rumor that Ned killed Arthur. No one saw Arthur at the Trident, KL, or Storm's End or later on Dragonstone. The poster asked if others knew. In a shorthand way, I was merely pointing out how others could piece it together if they were so inclined.

While this is true 15 years later, at the time of the war Ned was a 20 year old nobody second son. Outside of Winterfell and the Vale, his reputation was surely forged only later.

I don't really recall how old Ned was when he was fostered (around 10ish?) but there's nothing to suggest that he did not interact with nobles from other houses. We know for a fact that he was at Harrenhal. We also know for a fact that he led his forces during the war. I think I'm mixing book with show (yes, I'm slapping my own self right now) but doesn't one of the flashbacks include Jaime remarking on 'Honorable Ned" or something to that effect? The point is, at the time Ned told his lie about Jon, his reputation seems to have been pretty much widely understood, enough that people believed that Jon was his son without question. I think even for those who didn't know him or of him would take the fact that his own foster brother and foster father trusting him to be pretty significant.

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And SanSan is smartly out of the stalls,R+L+J taking up a smart position near the rails,Heresy is slowly out with Sansaareread taking up the rear.

As we turn King's Bend,R+L=J puts it's nose in front.SanSan and Sansaareread are neck and neck.Heresy seems to be lagging.

And over the ditch known as Storm of Swords,it's still R+L=J in front,SanSan is slipping backwards,Sansaarearead is holding on doggedly,and Heresy is still hanging in.

Two fences to go,A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons;R+L+J clears the first easily,Sansaareread stumbles allowing Heresy,who jumped it like a stag,to make up several lengths.

As we near ADWD,Heresy is grinding it out,but R+L=J jumps the last a length clear.

R+L=J has it's whip out and Heresy appears to have sprouted wings,and as they near the line,it's R+L=J,it's Heresy.It's a photo finish.......

With two books to go? This race ain't over yet. Or are you making a prediction?

BTW, which side of the Red River: North or South? I've been meaning to ask you.

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This must have been discussed in the 35 other threads but I'm not about to go read them all, so bear with me.

It seems to me that if you guys figured this out, SOMEONE in Westeros probably at least has considered the possibility. I assume Ned's sister wasn't seen in public for the last six months of her life or someone would have know she was pregnant. I'm not really sure what Targaryen loyalists think of Rheagar's relationship with Lyanna (I assume after Robert's victory it would be risky to suggest that he hadn't abducted and raped her.) He did crown her queen of love in beauty in a very public setting. Surely someone must have considered "where were those three other Kingsguard members?" Do you guys think Varys might know? How exactly did Robert think Lyanna had died?

Maybe, but who would give it a second thought if they they didn't have a reason to? It wouldn't be to hard for Ned to come up with a plausible reason for Lyanna's death, maybe one with a kernel of truth.

I knew Reed knows, maybe Wylla (but why would you tell a nursemaid...)

I'm also not convinced that Ned's honor and honesty were so widely known and admired. By those who knew him well or the people of the north, sure. Most people had no problem accepting that he had fathered a bastard. When he was declared a traitor you never heard the smallfolk expressing shock that the "honorable Lord Stark" would do such a thing. The people who would be piecing this theory together probably would not have disregarded it on the basis that "Ned Stark was to honest to lie."

Ned's rep was among the nobel houses, & the smallfolk don't much like noble's. A slip up by Ned would be much easier for the noble's to understand than Ned' usual honesty.

You're totally right, but at the same time (and here we're getting into the psychology/personality of characters we don't know nearly enough about) if I were Robert and truly loved Lyanna* then I would want to know exactly how she died.

*Why did he love her? It's not even clear when he met her or why exactly he cared so much. Maybe he did spend considerable time with her and respected her as an (almost) "warrior woman." It's also possible that he wanted to marry Ned's sister more due to his love for Ned (not a Renly/Loras love, but a desire for Ned to be his brother/join their houses. ) Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are right. But there was pride involved too.

I wish people wouldn't put so much faith in "the app." It wasn't written by or edited by GRMM. Sure the guy asked GRRM questions, but without knowing what questions.... Yes it's probably right about 90% of what it states (like the contents of Robb's will, or that Rickon is at Skagos.) But those were things already almost spelled out in the text. (like that brienne yelled "Sword." It's fucking telegraphed to you, yet somehow there was a debate even after the last book came out.) In terms of things that aren't meant to be revealed yet, you can't expect GRMM to give the information out via an iPhone app.

:agree: You & I are going to get along well. But be prepared, you are about to be inundated with thousands of "IT'S OFFICIAL" shrieks. You can point out that the makers admit it's flawed...but that won't matter! I had to put a bunch of people on ignore, just for the sake of my sanity.

Again, psychology/we don't really know him/blah blah.

I don't think he would. I think he MIGHT and that honestly it would come down to how drunk he was at the moment someone asked him* "what shall we do with this...dragonspawn?" Sure he hated Rheagar, but he loved Lyanna and the child was part of both of them. (Yes I realized any memory of this union would upset him.) He also had Ned there to temper his....temper. He might have wanted to murder Jon, but once Ned said something about "You'd murder my sister's son" I think he would have restrained himself and done one of two things.

1) send the child north with Ned "to never be spoken of again" / join the watch eventually

2) Kept the child close as a page and then a squire. He likely would have have treated him with contempt, or who knows he might have ended up loving him more than "his own" children.

Either way he would have kept the child a secret and maintained that Lyanna loved only him and was raped for his own pride's sake.

*I made a similar point recently in a thread asking "what if Robert had come back from his boar hunt." I could see Robert killing Cersei, I could see him killing Joffery. (the kid vivisected a pregnant cat.) I could not see him murdering Mycella and to a lesser extent Tommen in cold blood. But again I think it would come down to how drunk he was at the time.

Well, NED thought he would kill them all! Ned knew Robert pretty well.

Robert had 16 bastards. Connington captured Red Ronnet's bastard in his castle, Bolton acknowledges his.....The Lannisters probably ignore theirs.....Noble men will beget bastards, that's the way of it, nobody was going to question it anyway. The only thing some have questioned, is the status of Jon in Winterfell which is above and beyond that of a common bastard. If not for Catelyn's hatred, he simply would have been brought up as a trueborn son, same as the others. Ned is fairly snobbish all in all that we see, so in fact that is another point against a common mother for Jon.

I'm a little confused here, why do you think Ned is snobbish?

I have been wondering about this, too. Catelyn suggests that the normal thing with bastards is to provide for them but keep them out of sight. She thinks it is very unusual for Ned to bring his bastard to Winterfell. And Robert seems to keep all of his bastards, except Edric Storm, out of sight. But Walder Frey has no trouble keeping bastards in his castle, and the Sand Snakes appear to have some status in Dorne. Daemon Blackfyre, Bloodraven and the other "Great Bastards" enjoyed high status. So I don't know whether Catelyn's views on bastards were unusual or not.

I would say that Catelyn was judging by her personal pier group, & problems Great Bastards caused in the past.
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