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R+L=J v. 36


Stubby

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SONG = blood

of

ICE = Lyanna

&

FIRE = Rhaegar

It's honestly as simple as that, blood meaning Jon of course. It's not a coincidence that this goes along perfectly with TPTWP prophecy but ppl will believe what they want to make their own theories true so there's no point in arguing anymore.

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Song: melody sung or played with musical instrument

Synonyms: air, anthem, aria, ballad, canticle, carol, chant, chorale, chorus, ditty, expression, golden oldie, hymn, lay, lullaby, lyric, melody, number, oldie, opera, piece, poem, psalm, refrain, rock, rock and roll, round, shanty, strain, tune, verse, vocal

Of course, songs are composed about relevant events in the series. So, we could think of the song being the story of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar).

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Of course, songs are composed about relevant events in the series. So, we could think of the song being the story of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar).

Since the actions of Rhaegar and Lyanna essentially kicked off most everything that happens later, I think that's a very plausible interpretation. The Song of Ice and Fire can also be the song of Jon Snow, or the battle of the forces of Ice and Fire.

One interpretation rubs me the wrong way though, and that's when I see shippers on Tumblr saying the Song of Ice and Fire is the love story of Jon+Dany. For one, it feels too fairy-taleish, and two, I'm one of those who doesn't see Jon as "ice," but as the embodiment of ice+fire as the child of Rhaegar+Lyanna, and someone who will be instrumental in finding a balance between the two.

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[robert] And Lyanna?

[ned] She died in my arms Robert.

[robert]...

I don't believe Ned ever reported any more than that about ToJ.

Lyanna died in his arms, Arthur Dayne is dead. Period.

This is an excellent point concerning the likely conversation that we suspect took place (at some point) between Ned and Robert regarding Lyanna's demise and what happened to Ned during his sojourn down south. The story that Ned provides fits perfectly into the novel that Robert has already written in his own head.

Given all we know about Robert's violently hateful and heavily biased feelings concerning Rhaegar, it makes sense that Robert would not even question the outcome if Ned described the events thus. It fits Robert's preconceptions perfectly: the "rapist" stole Robert's lady love, then slaughtered her heartlessly as he used/abused her to death. She died in her loyal brother's arms. Robert isn't interested in any practical questions about the facts of the situation, such as asking whether or not Lyanna gave birth to a child, because Robert's imagination is focused entirely on his own loss -- and the mythologizing of it. A child would be a distraction, and its presence, alive or dead, would disrupt Robert's fantasy.

In a way, Robert's fantasy version of Rhaegar (based on what we believe about the R+L situation) is a doppelganger of Robert himself -- a man who acts whimsically/amorally, based on the passions of a moment -- determines that a woman he desires sexually should be his (what she thinks doesn't seem to be of much consequence to Robert so long as matters progress according to plan), then casts her aside when his interest is spent, so to speak.

Ned plays precisely to Robert's expectations.

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R+L=J is way too obvious. It's also, given the response to it, the biggest red herring in literary history.

I've never believed it was Ned. I think it's a deliberate detail that all but one of the children we know for sure are his--and all of his sons--look like their mother. This is a subtle hint that the very Stark-looking Jon Snow is not his.

We don't have all the pieces yet, but I'm pretty convinced (I use the term loosely) that Jon's parents are Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that Ned Stark scooped up a newborn baby at the tower of joy and then took it south to Starfall just to drop off the family sword and tell Ashara about Arthur. I don't believe he would have risked the detour, not with his sister's baby. I think he went to Starfall because he knew Ashara was either due or had already given birth to Brandon's son, and he wanted to bring the Stark boy home to Winterfell. Ashara didn't kill herself because her brother died, she didn't kill herself because Ned didn't love her, she killed herself--much as Cersei hints at in AGoT--because Ned stole baby.

I don't see any other reason why he hides it from Catelyn. Okay, sure, Jon being a Targaryen bastard is huge news, but Ned's not the only one who knows where the kid came from. If he trusted Howland Reed with the info, why not his wife? After all, the lie he tells her is quite damaging. She's bitter over it, and that bitterness is reflected in her treatment of Jon. Why put her through that? Well, I think he did it because letting her believe Ned cheated was much better for her than the truth: that the love of her life, Brandon, cheated. In other words, he lies for Catelyn's sake, not Jon's.

So, why is he a Dayne? Well, because he need to be able to get his hands on Dawn, which is actually Lightbringer.

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If Brandon was the father of Ashara's child (which I think he was), she would have been given birth much earlier. Harrenhal happened almost (or more than?) 2 years before the end of rebellion. (not to mention Brandon died more than a year before the end of said rebellion) If Jon is the son of Ashara and Brandon, he couldn't have passed as Ned's bastard, because he would be a year (at least) older than Robb. How old was Robb when Cat arrived at Winterfell? Half a year? One? Somewhere around that. If Jon was a year older, nobody would have bought the story that Ned fathered him after his marriage to Cat. (meaning Jon is younger than Robb).

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R+L=J is way too obvious. It's also, given the response to it, the biggest red herring in literary history.

R+L=J is not obvious!!!

This forum has about 53 000 members. Many of them registrated themselves some years ago and never made a single post and never went to the forum again they don´t know R+L=J. So lets say that about 50 000 people on this forum knwo this theory (the real number is most likely much smaller). The guys from other Song of Ice and fire fan-forums most likely know this theory too. So lets say that about 200 000 people from all these forums know this theory. This was a high estimation the original number is most likely much lower. Most of these people didn´t find out this theory themselves they read it on the board. The majority of us had no clue of R+L=J when they first read the books.

GRRM has sold millions of books. Hundredthousands of people borrowed the books in libraries and millions of people watched the TVshow. Lets say about 10 000 000 people knwo the story (including those who watched the TV show) msot of them have no clue about R+L=J, because the read the book once or maybe twice they don´t analize all the scenes. They just read the books and liked them, but they have not sped hours thinking who Jon´s parents could be. Some of the "normal readers may have figured out R+L=J, but that is a small minority.

If 200 000 people knwo R+L=J out of 10 000 000 that´s a really small number.

Besides R+L is not a red herring the red herings are: Ned+Wylla, Ned+Ashara and Ned+the fisherman´s daughter. Many of the "normal" readers will believe one of these stories they will not doubt that Ned´is Jon´s father and they will believe that the mother was a commoner, a prostitute or one of the women mentioned above.

And for all the "normal" reader who never thaught that Lyanna and Rhaegar could be Jon´s parent it will be a big surprise when they will learn it in TWoW or ADoS.

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Ned plays precisely to Robert's expectations.

Quite correct. Ned and Robert were bitterest of enemies when Ned left King's Landing. When he returned home with his sister's bones and interred them, is when Robert and Ned began patching up their relationship in the common grief of the loss of Lyanna. I am pretty sure that Robert did not have an in depth interest about Lyanna's life with Rhaegar, but was more concerned with retribution to Rhaegar. (I kill him every night in my dreams, but still it is not enough.) So, Robert can be left completely in the dark about the Kingsguard, the tower and everything else, very easily.
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I don't see any other reason why he hides it from Catelyn. Okay, sure, Jon being a Targaryen bastard is huge news, but Ned's not the only one who knows where the kid came from. If he trusted Howland Reed with the info, why not his wife? After all, the lie he tells her is quite damaging. She's bitter over it, and that bitterness is reflected in her treatment of Jon. Why put her through that? Well, I think he did it because letting her believe Ned cheated was much better for her than the truth: that the love of her life, Brandon, cheated. In other words, he lies for Catelyn's sake, not Jon's.

In the beginning of their marriage Ned did not know Catelyn good enough to trust her with that.

And these are the reasons why he did not tell her later:

- Hiding the son of Rhaegar, the heir to the Iron Throne and a member of House Targaryen is basically High Treason. If Robert would have learned who Jon really is he would have killed Jon and Ned. All people who knew about Jon´s parents would have been punished with death. Ned protects her by not telling her.

- If Catelyn would have known the truth she would have treated Jon much better maybe even like her own children. If she would have done that, some people may have become suspicous and would have wondered why she treated her husbands bastard so kind and they might have doubted the story that Ned is Jon´s father and they might have started invastigating. Catelyn´s anger protected Jon.

Besides I doubt that Ned told Howland Reed. Reed was with Ned at the TOJ, he fougth with him agaisnt the Kingsguard he found him sitting next to the dead Lyanna and he saw the baby. If you know all this you don´t need to be smart to find out who that baby is. Howland Reed did so and Ned commanded him not to tell anyone.

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I'm sorry, I just don't buy that Ned Stark scooped up a newborn baby at the tower of joy and then took it south to Starfall just to drop off the family sword and tell Ashara about Arthur. I don't believe he would have risked the detour, not with his sister's baby. I think he went to Starfall because he knew Ashara was either due or had already given birth to Brandon's son, and he wanted to bring the Stark boy home to Winterfell. Ashara didn't kill herself because her brother died, she didn't kill herself because Ned didn't love her, she killed herself--much as Cersei hints at in AGoT--because Ned stole baby.

It sure seems to me that the fastest way to Winterfell from the tower is through Starfall, and take a ship back. That may have entailed a stop on the Sisters, as well. Catelyn mentions that Ned gets back to Winterfell ahead of her. She takes a newborn Robb with her, probably slowing the trip down. Wylla and Jon are there when she arrives, and Jon is probably around two months old, and Robb is three months old. Or, do you think that Catelyn is such a fool that she wouldn't notice an older baby?
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Since the actions of Rhaegar and Lyanna essentially kicked off most everything that happens later, I think that's a very plausible interpretation. The Song of Ice and Fire can also be the song of Jon Snow, or the battle of the forces of Ice and Fire.

One interpretation rubs me the wrong way though, and that's when I see shippers on Tumblr saying the Song of Ice and Fire is the love story of Jon+Dany. For one, it feels too fairy-taleish, and two, I'm one of those who doesn't see Jon as "ice," but as the embodiment of ice+fire as the child of Rhaegar+Lyanna, and someone who will be instrumental in finding a balance between the two.

Well, I personally think a song is the result of Ice and Fire coming together. They could have danced, which we know is a fight in these stories. Song may be the opposite of a fight, and I believe the result is Jon.

There may be a love story between Jon and Daenerys, as it is prophesied in the House of the Undying. But these stories are not about that at all, these stories seem to focus on the events that sprang up because Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other.

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If Brandon was the father of Ashara's child (which I think he was), she would have been given birth much earlier. Harrenhal happened almost (or more than?) 2 years before the end of rebellion. (not to mention Brandon died more than a year before the end of said rebellion) If Jon is the son of Ashara and Brandon, he couldn't have passed as Ned's bastard, because he would be a year (at least) older than Robb. How old was Robb when Cat arrived at Winterfell? Half a year? One? Somewhere around that. If Jon was a year older, nobody would have bought the story that Ned fathered him after his marriage to Cat. (meaning Jon is younger than Robb).

I don't see why not. Ned returned home with an infant. You can't always tell by looking at a child how old it is, and it's not like he spelled it out for anyone. Jon would have been (provided the conception happened at Harrenhal, which isn't necessarily required, then Jon would have been roughly a year older than Robb. That's close enough to fool people.

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In the beginning of their marriage Ned did not know Catelyn good enough to trust her with that.

And these are the reasons why he did not tell her later:

- Hiding the son of Rhaegar, the heir to the Iron Throne and a member of House Targaryen is basically High Treason. If Robert would have learned who Jon really is he would have killed Jon and Ned. All people who knew about Jon´s parents would have been punished with death. Ned protects her by not telling her.

This I don't believe. Protecting Catelyn from the truth about Lyanna? There's no logic in that, unless he suspects she'd run and tell Robert, which is ridiculous.

- If Catelyn would have known the truth she would have treated Jon much better maybe even like her own children. If she would have done that, some people may have become suspicous and would have wondered why she treated her husbands bastard so kind and they might have doubted the story that Ned is Jon´s father and they might have started invastigating. Catelyn´s anger protected Jon.

Right, because Catelyn's a retard. Or, and maybe I'm reaching on this, she's smart enough to act the part when company is in town so as not to rouse suspicion? There's also no law that says bastards have be treated poorly.

Besides I doubt that Ned told Howland Reed. Reed was with Ned at the TOJ, he fougth with him agaisnt the Kingsguard he found him sitting next to the dead Lyanna and he saw the baby. If you know all this you don´t need to be smart to find out who that baby is. Howland Reed did so and Ned commanded him not to tell anyone.

The point is that he didn't do anything rash to Howland--like kill him--to protect the secret. He trusted him with it, so it's not like he's incapable of trusting people. I see no reason why he couldn't have trusted Catelyn with the truth if it were Lyanna's kid. It would have saved the woman a lot of needless suffering. In my mind, the only way he doesn't tell her is if he's trying to protect her from the truth about Brandon.

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I don't see why not. Ned returned home with an infant. You can't always tell by looking at a child how old it is, and it's not like he spelled it out for anyone. Jon would have been (provided the conception happened at Harrenhal, which isn't necessarily required, then Jon would have been roughly a year older than Robb. That's close enough to fool people.

Not true at all. You can't tell the difference between a two month old and a 14 month old? Catelyn is bringing her three month old Robb home with her, and she is not going to see a huge difference in your scenario? She may make errs in judgement, but she isn't a fool. Jon is a month younger than Robb who is three months old when Catelyn gets to Winterfell.
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This I don't believe. Protecting Catelyn from the truth about Lyanna? There's no logic in that, unless he suspects she'd run and tell Robert, which is ridiculous.

Right, because Catelyn's a retard. Or, and maybe I'm reaching on this, she's smart enough to act the part when company is in town so as not to rouse suspicion? There's also no law that says bastards have be treated poorly.

The point is that he didn't do anything rash to Howland--like kill him--to protect the secret. He trusted him with it, so it's not like he's incapable of trusting people. I see no reason why he couldn't have trusted Catelyn with the truth if it were Lyanna's kid. It would have saved the woman a lot of needless suffering. In my mind, the only way he doesn't tell her is if he's trying to protect her from the truth about Brandon.

Hmm, did you forget that Varys knew about the attack on Catelyn, and the weapon used, when they had a secret meeting about it in the god's wood in Winterfell? If Catelyn had not treated Jon as she did for every day while he was in Winterfell, wouldn't the spider have learned and started piecing things together. A secret only remains a secret as long as no one lets anything slip that would give away the secret. Catelyn showing any kindness to Jon would have given it away, even if it appeared that no one was around.

Ned reflects, while in the black cells, that he had one stain on his honor, and that was for Lyanna's promise. So, any other lie is not probable or possible.

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This I don't believe. Protecting Catelyn from the truth about Lyanna? There's no logic in that, unless he suspects she'd run and tell Robert, which is ridiculous.

Protecting her from the death punishment. She most likely wouldn´t have run to Robert , but you never knwo when somebody listens. And do you remember this scne in AGot were Ned wonders what Catelyn would have done if it were the her children against Jon. She would have told it if her children were in danger.

The point is that he didn't do anything rash to Howland--like kill him--to protect the secret. He trusted him with it, so it's not like he's incapable of trusting people. I see no reason why he couldn't have trusted Catelyn with the truth if it were Lyanna's kid. It would have saved the woman a lot of needless suffering. In my mind, the only way he doesn't tell her is if he's trying to protect her from the truth about Brandon.

What is the truth abut Brandon????

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R+L=J is way too obvious. It's also, given the response to it, the biggest red herring in literary history1.

We don't have all the pieces yet, but I'm pretty convinced (I use the term loosely) that Jon's parents are Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne2.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that Ned Stark scooped up a newborn baby at the tower of joy and then took it south to Starfall just to drop off the family sword and tell Ashara about Arthur3. I don't believe he would have risked the detour, not with his sister's baby. I think he went to Starfall because he knew Ashara was either due or had already given birth to Brandon's son, and he wanted to bring the Stark boy home to Winterfell. Ashara didn't kill herself because her brother died, she didn't kill herself because Ned didn't love her, she killed herself--much as Cersei hints at in AGoT--because Ned stole baby4.

I don't see any other reason why he hides it from Catelyn5. Okay, sure, Jon being a Targaryen bastard is huge news, but Ned's not the only one who knows where the kid came from.

So, why is he a Dayne? Well, because he need to be able to get his hands on Dawn, which is actually Lightbringer.6

Welcome to the boards.

1. You might want to look up Red Herring. The fact that most people don't pick up R + L = J the first time they read the series, kind of proves your wrong. Now if you want to say that the Game of Thrones was the biggest Red Herring in the series, I could buy that.

2. Other then the fact he died, 14+ months before the end of the Rebellion, and Ned did not find Jon till at least a few weeks after, HH was 21+ months before that same point.

3. This is the only thing that you said I buy. There is more to him going to Starfell then we know.

4. The most honorable man in Westeros, stole a baby? Yea, really?

5. I am sure that he really trusted a wife, he didn't know, with the life of a child he just swore to protect. Come on, really?

6. GRRM has said that Dawn is at Starfell

I don't see why not. Ned returned home with an infant. You can't always tell by looking at a child how old it is, and it's not like he spelled it out for anyone. Jon would have been (provided the conception happened at Harrenhal, which isn't necessarily required, then Jon would have been roughly a year older than Robb. That's close enough to fool people.

WTF? Are you on Crack? Oh your just a Wanker, being from the US, even I get it, now.

Regardless of size, there are many differents between a 3 month old child, and a 6 months old child (not the least is the fact that at 6 months a child is often trying to stand up, if not trying to walk while a 3 month old is is at best still learning to crawl)

I won't get into the differents between a year old child which most children are fully walking, and talking and a 3 month old.

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Hi all... I've been lurking here for a while and found the wiki to be occasionally helpful during my first read. I'm sure there isn't a lot new to say on R+L=J, but as a believer in the theory, I'm finding more support for it on my second read.

Here's a little jewel I just found: "Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once."

Not proof, but R+L=J ties this train of thought together like not much else would. Also, I just love the relationship between Ned and Robert. Every middle aged guy has an old friend like Robert...who was a lot of fun 20 years ago, but as time goes on the flaws magnify and Ned knows it. Yet there's still that loyalty.

Personally, the fact that Ned never told Catelyn doesn't bother me. Aside from all the reasons I've seen mentioned (this is a deadly secret), I'm totally sure that if I were Lyanna and extracting this promise from Ned I would make sure he promised not to tell his wife. Because she'd know his tendency would be to tell her, but Lyanna would have less reason to trust her and would want fewer people to know.

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