Jump to content

R+L=J v. 36


Stubby

Recommended Posts

I don't see why not. Ned returned home with an infant. You can't always tell by looking at a child how old it is, and it's not like he spelled it out for anyone. Jon would have been (provided the conception happened at Harrenhal, which isn't necessarily required, then Jon would have been roughly a year older than Robb. That's close enough to fool people.

You actually been around little kids? There is a certain variation for acquiring basic skills but generally, a 3 months old (that would be Robb, at best) is able to hold his head on his own, and raise the head while lying on the belly, and that's about it. A one year old (Jon, under your scenario) walks and is beginning to talk. No woman who has had at least one child of her own would be fooled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the record, I've had more than thirty people read the books in the past decade (maybe even more) and only one of them that I know of came up with the idea that Ned was not Jon's father. He did not come up with R+L=J, but knew something wasn't right with what we knew about Jon.

For a long time, YEARS, before I started reading forums such as this one, I thought I was one of the only people that picked up on R+L=J. I was mad too, because I thought I had ruined the story for myself. I figured I was the only person who noticed simply because I write a great deal myself, so unfortunately as I read a book I look at how authors put things together very carefully, which is to be honest the only reason I stumbled upon this possible twist in the plot. It's there, but in my opinion it's not obvious.

So I don't think most people notice upon their first or second read through, unless they are looking for it.

On top of all of this, the books are very good and fans are addicted. When you have years between books being published, people begin to wonder if they'll get an end to the story and start trying to find it for themselves. I've read plenty of sci-fi and fantasy, and I don't think I know many other series that get picked apart and studied like this one. When you have millions of readers, someone is going to figure out the plot twists if you give them enough time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure if this has been brought up yet (I'm sorry) and I also don't have any citation or source for this at all (sorry again) but I vaguely remember reading an interview with GRRM a while back where he said something sort of somewhat along the lines of how there were certain big mysteries and stuff that he put hints in the books for, but then he realized that readers had figured it out already, and he wanted to change it to add in another twist, but then he decided not to change it because then all of the hints wouldn't make sense. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about? Anyway, to me, it felt like he was saying "they figured out R+L=J and I considered changing it but I'm not going to".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see why not. Ned returned home with an infant. You can't always tell by looking at a child how old it is, and it's not like he spelled it out for anyone. Jon would have been (provided the conception happened at Harrenhal, which isn't necessarily required, then Jon would have been roughly a year older than Robb. That's close enough to fool people.

The bottom line is the timeline does not support your theory whatsoever. If Brandon was Jon's father that would mean Jon was at least a year older than Robb. That means when Cat would have brought Robb to Winterfell Jon would have been 13 to 14 months old and Robb would have only been 3 months old, and your trying to argue that Cat wouldn't have seen the difference between the two? Jesus man give it a rest your theory doesn't play out sorry. There's no way in hell Ned would be able to pretend that a 13-14 month Jon was actually a month younger than a 3 month Robb. How is this even being argued that's just common sense? There just no way possible that Brandon could be Jon's father the timeline doesn't add up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

<snip>

Your anecdote demonstrates to me that this solution isn't as obvious as a lot of people would like to believe, which is something I've often argued — it's obvious to people like us because a lot of us have been debating it and aggregating clues and stuff for months or even years. But to the average readers, a lot of this goes over their heads.

Not sure if this has been brought up yet (I'm sorry) and I also don't have any citation or source for this at all (sorry again) but I vaguely remember reading an interview with GRRM a while back where he said something sort of somewhat along the lines of how there were certain big mysteries and stuff that he put hints in the books for, but then he realized that readers had figured it out already, and he wanted to change it to add in another twist, but then he decided not to change it because then all of the hints wouldn't make sense. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about? Anyway, to me, it felt like he was saying "they figured out R+L=J and I considered changing it but I'm not going to".

The only thing along these lines that I can recall is GRRM saying that he would not change any solutions just because they'd been figured out. Which makes me respect him; if he changed stuff on a whim because he was butthurt that he'd been figured out, that would make him a hack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the record, I've had more than thirty people read the books in the past decade (maybe even more) and only one of them that I know of came up with the idea that Ned was not Jon's father. He did not come up with R+L=J, but knew something wasn't right with what we knew about Jon.

For a long time, YEARS, before I started reading forums such as this one, I thought I was one of the only people that picked up on R+L=J. I was mad too, because I thought I had ruined the story for myself. I figured I was the only person who noticed simply because I write a great deal myself, so unfortunately as I read a book I look at how authors put things together very carefully, which is to be honest the only reason I stumbled upon this possible twist in the plot. It's there, but in my opinion it's not obvious.

So I don't think most people notice upon their first or second read through, unless they are looking for it.

On top of all of this, the books are very good and fans are addicted. When you have years between books being published, people begin to wonder if they'll get an end to the story and start trying to find it for themselves. I've read plenty of sci-fi and fantasy, and I don't think I know many other series that get picked apart and studied like this one. When you have millions of readers, someone is going to figure out the plot twists if you give them enough time.

I agree. The internet has changed everything in that regard, as it has made so much information accessible to so many people. I don't think I would have picked up on Jon not being Ned's son, let alone R+L=J, without the internet. I believe GRRM himself has spoken of his frustration regarding this.

At first I was a little gutted that I had prematurely discovered arguably the biggest twist in the story. However, over time I've realised that the forums have added so much to my enjoyment of the books, and ultimately they've made me appreciate the books even more. I suppose the thing to look forward to now will be how GRRM reveals the twist...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would never have guessed R+L=J without this forum. A lot of people disregard and are disappointed by R+L=J because they see it as old news.

Some even say it would be an too easy twist.

And yes it is old news if you've been in these fourm for more than two hours minutes. It's one of the first things you discover!

So I agree wholehearted with above posters, a lot of things people consider to be obvious and almost boring would never have seen daylight without the internet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the record, I've had more than thirty people read the books in the past decade (maybe even more) and only one of them that I know of came up with the idea that Ned was not Jon's father. He did not come up with R+L=J, but knew something wasn't right with what we knew about Jon.

For a long time, YEARS, before I started reading forums such as this one, I thought I was one of the only people that picked up on R+L=J. I was mad too, because I thought I had ruined the story for myself. I figured I was the only person who noticed simply because I write a great deal myself, so unfortunately as I read a book I look at how authors put things together very carefully, which is to be honest the only reason I stumbled upon this possible twist in the plot. It's there, but in my opinion it's not obvious.

So I don't think most people notice upon their first or second read through, unless they are looking for it.

On top of all of this, the books are very good and fans are addicted. When you have years between books being published, people begin to wonder if they'll get an end to the story and start trying to find it for themselves. I've read plenty of sci-fi and fantasy, and I don't think I know many other series that get picked apart and studied like this one. When you have millions of readers, someone is going to figure out the plot twists if you give them enough time.

And then with the internet, they can tell everyone else. Luckily Martin's books are so well written it is ok. Even if R+L=J turns out to be true, I will not feel that it ruined the books.

And I must admit that this posibility did not occur to me till I read it on this website.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I too did not suspect that Jon might be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna until a conversation with someone who had come by this hypothesis from the 'net. I had previously assumed that it was Eddard and Wylla. After all, Ned appeared to say as much to King Robert and Edric Dayne told Arya the same, so why should I question it? Once it was suggested otherwise, I went back to AGoT and to that scene with Robert and realized what Ned had to mean about the promise made to his sister and the lies he had told to keep the same; pervarication clearly unpleasant if not indeed painful to Ned. Add that to his dream about the confrontation at the TOJ and it became probable to me. Once I started reading this thread in its manifold parts and posts, the theory came to seem highly probable, and there it rests for me. Also, I am content with answer that he did not tell Catelyn because of the promise made to his sister on her deathbed. After all, he did not tell Jon who his mother was either. If he did not tell the young man whom this matter most concerned....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We don't have all the pieces yet, but I'm pretty convinced (I use the term loosely) that Jon's parents are Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.

Brandon died before Jon was conceived, so I'd say this is highly unlikely.

I don't see any other reason why he hides it from Catelyn. Okay, sure, Jon being a Targaryen bastard is huge news, but Ned's not the only one who knows where the kid came from. If he trusted Howland Reed with the info, why not his wife?

Howland Reed would've been in on the secret from the beginning, since he was with Ned at the ToJ. There was no way Ned could keep it from him.

Besides, Ned himself explains in AGOT why he wouldn't tell Catelyn with the following quote: "Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

She's bitter over it, and that bitterness is reflected in her treatment of Jon. Why put her through that? Well, I think he did it because letting her believe Ned cheated was much better for her than the truth: that the love of her life, Brandon, cheated. In other words, he lies for Catelyn's sake, not Jon's.

What makes you think that Brandon was the love of Catelyn's life? And what makes you think that she'd be hurt by the knowledge that he fathered a bastard? She herself says that she wouldn't begrudge a husband having a bastard; what bothers her about Jon isn't his existence, but the fact that he's being raised alongside her own children. So in fact, Ned would simply be making thing worse by bringing Jon home. Not to mention that if he wanted Catelyn not to know that Brandon fathered a bastard, it makes more sense to leave Jon at Starfall than to bring him back to Winterfell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dragonfish:

Well there is a little text on Brandon, Ned, and Catelyn: a reflection by her on her initial reaction to the dour Eddard as opposed to his wild and witty brother. She follows that up with the further reflection about coming to love Eddard, but if one thought the first bit more salient.... W. B. Yeats was happily married, but I doubt he ever forgot Maude Gonne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure if this has been brought up yet (I'm sorry) and I also don't have any citation or source for this at all (sorry again) but I vaguely remember reading an interview with GRRM a while back where he said something sort of somewhat along the lines of how there were certain big mysteries and stuff that he put hints in the books for, but then he realized that readers had figured it out already, and he wanted to change it to add in another twist, but then he decided not to change it because then all of the hints wouldn't make sense. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about? Anyway, to me, it felt like he was saying "they figured out R+L=J and I considered changing it but I'm not going to".

IIRC what he said was when this and other early websites popped up, he went and read on them a little bit, but soon realized that if people where on to his twists, he might feel a need to change things, and that wouldn't be good, so he stopped coming to places like this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was thinking about this the other day, and how if I was an author and realised that my readers were on to my twists, I might be tempted to change them. Could be risky though, and I'm sure there are far more readers who are unaware than there are those who believe R+L=J.

I have been re-reading GoT and there is just so much circumstantial evidence to support R+L=J. Maybe GRRM put in too many hints, although at the time he probably wasn't considering online forums which would scrutinise virtually every sentence :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hi.

please bear with me, i havent read all 36 versions of this deiscussion and didnt follow it..

But maybe someone can enlighten me in this:

As far as ive understood it a large part of the theorie is based off the events at the tower of joy and especialy of "the promise" ned gave lyanna before she died.

So i just started a reread of asoiaf and right in the first ned chapter with ned and robert in the crypts of winterfell it sais this:

"Ah, damn it Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?" His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. "She deserves more than darkness..."

"She was a Stark of Winterfell," Ned said quitely."This is her place."

"She should be oin a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strenght and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.

Taken into account in what context ned got reminded of it one could think this promise was just about bringing her home to winterfell and burry her in the crypts beside bran and the father..

Why does the promise play such a big part in this theory (or does it not)? Did i miss something later on that expanded the "promise story"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hi.

please bear with me, i havent read all 36 versions of this deiscussion and didnt follow it..

But maybe someone can enlighten me in this:

As far as ive understood it a large part of the theorie is based off the events at the tower of joy and especialy of "the promise" ned gave lyanna before she died.

So i just started a reread of asoiaf and right in the first ned chapter with ned and robert in the crypts of winterfell it sais this:

Taken into account in what context ned got reminded of it one could think this promise was just about bringing her home to winterfell and burry her in the crypts beside bran and the father..

Why does the promise play such a big part in this theory (or does it not)? Did i miss something later on that expanded the "promise story"?

Because it's apparently not the only thing that Ned promised her. He mentions paying a price for keeping his vows (plural), and lies that he has been living fo fourteen years (i.e., the amount of time since the end of the Rebellion and Lyanna's death) and some ultradangerous secret best not shared even with those one loves. Bringing Lyanna to rest at Winterfell does not tax a price, or require a lie, or is a secret.

Furthermore, Ned is reminded of Lyanna once more when Sansa begs for Lady's life. I cannot believe that he would have his beloved sister, on her deathbed, beg him where she should be burried - but if she begged for an innocent life to be spared, it suddenly makes much more sense, especially if you take into account how she was virtually clinging to life with her last strength until that promise was granted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At first I was a little gutted that I had prematurely discovered arguably the biggest twist in the story. However, over time I've realised that the forums have added so much to my enjoyment of the books, and ultimately they've made me appreciate the books even more. I suppose the thing to look forward to now will be how GRRM reveals the twist...

There is a bigger twist to come, I am certain. GRRM is not going to visit forums, because he might be tempted to twist the plot further, he intends to tell the story as conceived. You and I will still enjoy seeing how GRRM reveals the twists, and even rereading again, and again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

ah ok. that makes sense.

I guess i just have to reread some more :)

But nonetheless thank you. It was just something that immediatly struck me when reading it again and i wanted it to get cleared up by someone with more knowledge of it.

One other thing, I forget exactly where it is (I think the Black Cell), Ned sees the crown of Love and Beauty, made of the roses his sister loved so much, and he is struck by a thorn of it. That in prose describes that Lyanna loved something which injured Ned. Tying this into the promise he made Lyanna, and that he had only one stain on his honor, makes it pretty clear that Lyanna demanded that Ned conceal Jon's identity from everyone.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just found another little gem while rereading. From Ned's POV:

"Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

He was thinking this while trying to figure out what Jon Arryn knew that probably got him killed. But still, it was italicized, like it was something he had thought about a lot.

I'd provide page #s, but I'm on a kindle and I dont think it numbers pages like the books. At least I can never find stuff on the page people post it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...