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R+L=J v. 36


Stubby

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One other thing, I forget exactly where it is (I think the Black Cell), Ned sees the crown of Love and Beauty, made of the roses his sister loved so much, and he is struck by a thorn of it. That in prose describes that Lyanna loved something which injured Ned. Tying this into the promise he made Lyanna, and that he had only one stain on his honor, makes it pretty clear that Lyanna demanded that Ned conceal Jon's identity from everyone.

thanks again.

I guess i really have some rereading to do to get the grip of this theory myself. not saying i dont believe in it, but i didnt came on it myself on my first read.

i dont usualy read books in english, so that maybe took its toll. and the fact i suck at symbolism..

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thanks again.

I guess i really have some rereading to do to get the grip of this theory myself. not saying i dont believe in it, but i didnt came on it myself on my first read.

i dont usualy read books in english, so that maybe took its toll. and the fact i suck at symbolism..

Don't worry, you needn't read it in English, and there are not really symbols, just a couple of details which, upon closer look, do not fit. Like, when Ned is thinking that unlike Robert, Rhaegar didn't use to frequent brothels - wait, he's comparing his sister's betrothed and her rapist, in favour of the latter? And why does he make the comparison at all? Not making sense in the least, unless those two were actually on a comparable position - betrothed, and lover/husband.

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yeah i dont need to but i read the first book in german and was somewhat put off by the translated names of characters, castles, places and whatnot. They just sounded wrong to me, allthough german is my native language. That together with the fact that each book is split in two in german and each is 15 Euro (=150€ alltogether) and all english books together where 23€ on amazon made that a quick decision towards the english versions :)

i guess with the popular theories in mind after my first read and now reading the forums there will be some hints unfolding more clearly on my reread.

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Another interesting thing to note is that in the Stark crypts only kings and lords get a statue. The cover story is that Ned loved sister and brother to give them statues. But, Lyanna was a princess and queen if she was married to Rhaegar, earning herself a statue.

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Another interesting thing to note is that in the Stark crypts only kings and lords get a statue. The cover story is that Ned loved sister and brother to give them statues. But, Lyanna was a princess and queen if she was married to Rhaegar, earning herself a statue.

That would be a good point, but if Brandon got a statue, then I think Ned's just did it because he loved them.

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I love that. It would be a nice secretive gesture, a way for Ned to tip his hat and honor her status, since he died so young.

And if Rickard died before his son did by moments or whatever, Brandon was the heir, and technically Lord Stark a few moments in life before his death.

So they both get a statue like their dad.

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I have been re-reading GoT and there is just so much circumstantial evidence to support R+L=J. Maybe GRRM put in too many hints, although at the time he probably wasn't considering online forums which would scrutinise virtually every sentence :)

There is what a half dozen subtle hints in aGoT(which was written when he planned on 3 books), most of which are in Ned's POV. All of them can easliy dismissed on their own, only as a group does it add up to R + L = J. There are only a few more hints in the others books I don't get how you think there are too many.

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There is what a half dozen subtle hints in aGoT(which was written when he planned on 3 books), most of which are in Ned's POV. All of them can easliy dismissed on their own, only as a group does it add up to R + L = J. There are only a few more hints in the others books I don't get how you think there are too many.

Exactly. My mother was made aware of the R+L=J theory before she even read the first book, and she still didn't spot any clues that pointed to it. She had to ask me what they were, and when I told her she went and reread those parts and still thought it was too vague to create a theory around. My mom is a smart woman but she's used to reading open-and-shut murder mysterys. I think the subtlety of this series flies over her head a bit.

I'm always amazed when people say the clues are too obvious. They're obvious if you go on the internet and read it in a forum, maybe, but I don't think they're obvious to the average reader at all.

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When Jon said to Benjen that he wanted to go to the Wall and that he'd not care about fathering no children, Benjen told him: "You would if you knew what it meant".

That's just more proof for me. I don't think Benjen meant 'only' the love parents have for their kids or the lack of sex at the Wall (and if a brother wants to go dig some treasure all he needs to do is head to Mole Town...).

I don't think Benjen knew it but I highly think he had his suspicions.

Maybe it's a inhertance that needs to keep going, from Aerys & Rhaella to Rhaegar; from Rhaegar & Lyanna to Jon; from Jon & whoever he may (or may never) marry/have a kid with.

BTW, I hardly suspected about it until I read Dany's POV where she's talking to Ser Barristan about Rhaegar. When she thinks of Daario and how her brother loved his northern girl. That was when it clicked for me, then I just looked at my notes and 'boom': R+L=J!

Also, if Jon was Ashara&Ned's he'd be quite a bit older than Robb, wouldn't he? Then I don't think Ned would be able to fool Cat and others.

And when Edric Dayne told Arya that he knew Jon's mom I thought: "Nah, Wylla can't be Jon's mom. If she was, why would Ned never speak of her?"

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When Jon said to Benjen that he wanted to go to the Wall and that he'd not care about fathering no children, Benjen told him: "You would if you knew what it meant".

That's just more proof for me. I don't think Benjen meant 'only' the love parents have for their kids or the lack of sex at the Wall (and if a brother wants to go dig some treasure all he needs to do is head to Mole Town...).

I don't think Benjen knew it but I highly think he had his suspicions.

Maybe it's a inhertance that needs to keep going, from Aerys & Rhaella to Rhaegar; from Rhaegar & Lyanna to Jon; from Jon & whoever he may (or may never) marry/have a kid with.

BTW, I hardly suspected about it until I read Dany's POV where she's talking to Ser Barristan about Rhaegar. When she thinks of Daario and how her brother loved his northern girl. That was when it clicked for me, then I just looked at my notes and 'boom': R+L=J!

Also, if Jon was Ashara&Ned's he'd be quite a bit older than Robb, wouldn't he? Then I don't think Ned would be able to fool Cat and others.

And when Edric Dayne told Arya that he knew Jon's mom I thought: "Nah, Wylla can't be Jon's mom. If she was, why would Ned never speak of her?"

I think Benjen was refering to his own kids in this quote. Maybe he stayed not as true to his vows as Jon believed. Maybe he has kids and loves a woman, but cannot marry her and stay with her because of his vows.

But anyway I think Benjen at least suspected that Jon was not Ned´s bastard and maybe he even knew R+L. He wa Ned´s brother and knew him very wellI doubt he believed Ned´s story.

Maybe Ned hasn´t told him, but I think Benjen and Lyanna were close and he could have guessed what had happened.

I do also believe that Benjen took the black out of guilt. Either because he borrowed Lyanna his amour, she became the KotLT and met Rhaegar which led to her death. Or because he knew of Lyanna´s plans and maybe even helped her to escape.

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Hey. Just a thought on Jon's appearance and whether that could solidify this theory... Afaik he has no physical Targaryen traits at all? And do we know the appearance of any 'other' Targaryen bastards? Just to make sure if we can say that Targ traits are dominant or recessive. I mean, look at Neds children.. It would seem that it's either 1:4 Stark:Tully or 2:4 counting Jon. Doesnt seem like overly dominant traits.. You'd think that if R+L=J was true, we should be able to see it on Jon? Or what do u guys think

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Dominance of a trait can't be determined the way you look at it.

That said, we know of quite a number of Targaryens or half-Targaryens who had dark hair, and often dark eyes as well: Baelor 'Breakspear' Targaryen from the Dunk and Egg storiesas well as his sons; Aegor 'Bittersteel' Rivers; Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys also had dark colouring.

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granted, Im a firm believer of R + L = J, but how how screwed will we all be if that turns out to be false?

I don't think that GRRM could explain why three of the most honorable Kingsguard, that were a wonder, a shining example to the rest of the world, would fight to the death to protect mother and child at the tower with any other explanation. In other words, this scene confirms it.
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Dominance of a trait can't be determined the way you look at it.

Yes it can. Not "determined", but it can be speculated. That's what I was doing, too.

If there have been black haired Targs as you said, then that could mean Targs silver hair isnt a dominant trait.

Anyway, I guess you'd need to compare alot of Half-Targs and their other parent's hair colour before you could make a qualified guess. and we probably don't have enough information to do that..

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Hey. Just a thought on Jon's appearance and whether that could solidify this theory... Afaik he has no physical Targaryen traits at all? And do we know the appearance of any 'other' Targaryen bastards? Just to make sure if we can say that Targ traits are dominant or recessive. I mean, look at Neds children.. It would seem that it's either 2:3 Stark:Tully or 3:3 counting Jon. Doesnt seem like overly dominant traits.. You'd think that if R+L=J was true, we should be able to see it on Jon? Or what do u guys think

Yes it can. Not "determined", but it can be speculated. That's what I was doing, too.

Not really. The fact that genes are dominant or recessive does not relate to how often they are passed on to progeny but if a trait becomes manifest or not when different alleles of the gene combine in a new individual, and that again depends not on the traits that either parent displays but on the particular copy they pass on. Cat's auburn hair and blue eyes are both recessive traits, i.e. to become manifest in her, she inherited recessive copies from both her parents, and passes on only recessive copies to her children. Ned, with his darker colouring, possesses at least one dominant copy of the gene but the other can be recessive, inherited from any ancestor up his lineage, so every time the random gene splitting begins, there are three copies of recessive genes versus only one copy of dominant gene entering the lottery. Hence, merely statistically, the majority of his children get the Tully look, even though the trait as such is recessive.

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When Jon said to Benjen that he wanted to go to the Wall and that he'd not care about fathering no children, Benjen told him: "You would if you knew what it meant".

That's just more proof for me. I don't think Benjen meant 'only' the love parents have for their kids or the lack of sex at the Wall (and if a brother wants to go dig some treasure all he needs to do is head to Mole Town...).

I don't think Benjen knew it but I highly think he had his suspicions.

I think you're reading too much into that. Giving up on a family is a huge deal, even if sex can be had at Mole's Town. And even if he did know, what would "if you knew what it meant" actually mean? Jon's not a trueborn Targaryen, therefore has no claim to the throne. And Robert was king at the time anyway, with three children of his own (so far as anyone knew). Hell, even if Jon himself knew his parentage, all he'd be giving up in going to the wall would be the right to have kids and marry.

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I think you're reading too much into that. Giving up on a family is a huge deal, even if sex can be had at Mole's Town. And even if he did know, what would "if you knew what it meant" actually mean? Jon's not a trueborn Targaryen, therefore has no claim to the throne. And Robert was king at the time anyway, with three children of his own (so far as anyone knew). Hell, even if Jon himself knew his parentage, all he'd be giving up in going to the wall would be the right to have kids and marry.

Actually manny of the R+L=J believers think that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

Rhaegar was married to Elia, but he wouldn´t have been the first Targaryen who practised polygamy.

It is indicated by the presense of the Kingsguard at the TOJ who most likely wouldn´t protect the deads crownprinces lover and his bastard while Viserys is on Dragonstone, but they would protect the king. and if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married Jon would have been king then.

Not really. The fact that genes are dominant or recessive does not relate to how often they are passed on to progeny but if a trait becomes manifest or not when different alleles of the gene combine in a new individual, and that again depends not on the traits that either parent displays but on the particular copy they pass on. Cat's auburn hair and blue eyes are both recessive traits, i.e. to become manifest in her, she inherited recessive copies from both her parents, and passes on only recessive copies to her children. Ned, with his darker colouring, possesses at least one dominant copy of the gene but the other can be recessive, inherited from any ancestor up his lineage, so every time the random gene splitting begins, there are three copies of recessive genes versus only one copy of dominant gene entering the lottery. Hence, merely statistically, the majority of his children get the Tully look, even though the trait as such is recessive.

:agree: Besides the fact that Jon has no silver-gold hair and purple eyes, does not mean that he does not look like a Targ at all. I believe that Jon got the Stark hait and eye colouring from Lyanna, but maybe he also got some parts from Rhaegar the form of his face, or the form of his eyes or his nose or whatever. Something that is not obvious, something that only people who knew Rhaegar very well (like Jon Connigton or Baristan) might see. Could be another reason why Ned did not want Jon in KL.

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:agree: Besides the fact that Jon has no silver-gold hair and purple eyes, does not mean that he does not look like a Targ at all. I believe that Jon got the Stark hait and eye colouring from Lyanna, but maybe he also got some parts from Rhaegar the form of his face, or the form of his eyes or his nose or whatever. Something that is not obvious, something that only people who knew Rhaegar very well (like Jon Connigton or Baristan) might see. Could be another reason why Ned did not want Jon in KL.

It has been speculated that Jon's lean build and brooding tendencies are inherited from Rhaegar :-)

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It has been speculated that Jon's lean build and brooding tendencies are inherited from Rhaegar :-)

Yes I know and his tendency to be interested in warrior women :)

The saving Ygritte thing, could also have been something Rhaegar would have done (pure speculation here) and Jon protecting Sam reminded me a bit of Lyanna protecting Howland Reed at Harrenhall.

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