OUR FEELING ON LORD TYWIN

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

As despicable as i find his actions against his son tyrion, (the tysha incident), i can't help but feel like tywin lannister is an interesting and almost dare i say likeable character? i find myself agreeing with so much of what he says and the decisions he makes. making tyrion hand while he is in the field, just for example. but whether it's on the tv show in the books, his comments are always stern but usually with a lot of wisdom, and it's always for the good of his house.

i don't know where i'm going with this really, i'm just interested in hearing everyone else's opinions on lord tywin's character. is he good? bad? probably somewhere in between, right? your thoughts my friends....

[Quiet Isle]

I happen to enjoy the events around Tywin. He, like Ned, are the rocks upon which our consciences break.

[Gurkhal]

I think that Tywin was the great man of his time and that there is currently no man or woman in Westeros who can stand up to heights. He knows what he's doing and gets it done. He has some flaws but so do all and I think that his positive qualities overshadows his flaws by a long way. If Tywin had lived then Westeros would have known peace instead of the turmoil it must endure at present.

[David Selig]

He was a monster and way overrated as a politician and a military commander. A lying hypocrite and a disgusting excuse for a human being.

Good thing is he'll burn in the seven hells for a long, long time. :cool4:

[Frey Pie]

As despicable as i find his actions against his son tyrion, (the tysha incident), i can't help but feel like tywin lannister is an interesting and almost dare i say likeable character? i find myself agreeing with so much of what he says and the decisions he makes. making tyrion hand while he is in the field, just for example. but whether it's on the tv show in the books, his comments are always stern but usually with a lot of wisdom, and it's always for the good of his house.

i don't know where i'm going with this really, i'm just interested in hearing everyone else's opinions on lord tywin's character. is he good? bad? probably somewhere in between, right? your thoughts my friends....

How do you feel about him putting Tyrion in the place of battle where he is most likely to die? Or his whole plan for the place where Tyrion is to be routed so he can win the battle?

[Ragnorak]

David Selig summed up my sentiments on Tywin.

TV Tywin is a far more humanized character, but his interactions with Arya never took place in the books so I think you need to separate the two portrayals.

I know we hear a few times that Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms while Hand but we have reason to doubt how true that might be. Aerys turned down the marriage with Cersei which places a big question about how much influence Tywin wielded over him. There is also the Defiance at Duskendale. We know what Tywin's solution would have been (Rains of Castamere) yet Aerys chose a course in direct opposition to Tywin's signature solution. Tywin still may have been quite influential in ruling or he may just simply have been an attack dog Aerys kept around like Tywin keeps Gregor. It is hard to say for certain with the evidence available, but the claims that he ruled the Seven Kingdoms are at best highly exaggerated. We also have the example of the Blackwater where we see Tywin publicly being given the lion share of the credit for something he had precious little to do with.

Tywin became Hand and married Joanna before his father died. So Joanna was the real day to day ruler of Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. She was said to rule at home and since Tywin was Hand and mostly in KL their entire married life there is probably a great deal of truth in that. After Joanna's death Tywin remained Hand until about a year before Robert's Rebellion when Jaime joined the KG. Kevan probably took Joanna's place as castellan of the Rock. Just based on his biography Tywin never really sat as the full time ruler of anything until a year before the rebellion. Sure he was Lord of Casterly Rock, but he wouldn't be much more involved in ruling it than Ned was in ruling Winterfell while he was Hand.

Tyrion notes at least twice that Kevan doesn't have thoughts his father didn't have first. After Tywin dies we learn that Kevan is quite competent on his own-- so much so that Varys kills him. We don't know how involved Kevan was with Tywin's decisions. He could be the whole brains of the operation or he could have played the part of the lickspittle that Tyrion seems to see. We aren't given enough information to know. Tywin does make some pretty awful choices. He gives LF the Riverlands and then his blessing to go marry Lysa even after Tyrion warns him the man can't be trusted. He's willingly handing LF control over 2 of the 7 kingdoms (complete with a Tully to secure his Riverlands claim) in the midst of an ongoing civil war. (and this is LF's reward for arranging the assassination of Joffrey.) Just because LF hasn't backstabbed the Lannisters yet with the dagger they gave him doesn't make giving the Riverlands and blessing his marriage to Lysa any less of an extraordinarily bad idea.

His going to war at the end of GoT wasn't well thought through either. If Robert lived he would have lost. Dorne was in all probability going to be his enemy. If Renly and Stannis didn't infight he would have lost. If the Vale joined in he would have lost (imagine a host under the Blackfish attacking him in the rear while he engaged Roose Bolton.) If Robb was able to utilize Theon to bring in the Iron Islands he would have lost. These were all likelihoods or at least reasonable knowable possibilities that he had no contingency plan to deal with.

After the Red Wedding and Tyrion's trial Tywin becomes very concerned about not offending Dorne for fear that Stannis will gamble on a Dornish alliance. It is the Red Wedding that enables Stannis to gamble on the North. Tywin expected that to be a finishing blow to end all opposition but it hardly worked out that way. He also didn't account for Jon Snow. There is a living "son" of Eddard Stark still in the North. The North reacting in an extremely negative way to the Red Wedding and rallying behind Jon is not exactly an unforseeable outcome after the murder of all the other Stark children. Tywin didn't exactly dot his i's and cross his t's on that one either.

So we have ample evidence of bad decisions by Tywin during the books and reason to question the full veracity of the reputation he has prior to the start of the books. Both Littlefinger and Varys clearly prefer a Lannister on the throne with Tywin as Hand to a Stannis and that in and of itself is very telling.

[Southron_Ambitions]

I think he was the greatest man of his generation, the best politician we see in the books, and overall the most capable person we are introduced to. He's utterly ruthless, but his skills as a general are never explored IMO and therefore are overrated and underrated by those who claim to know what he was in that regard. His biggest mistake was being unable to see past Tyrion's deformities or forgive him for Johanna's death, and it ultimately leads to his demise. Let's be honest though, if Tyrion doesn't kill Tywin, how do things pan out from there? Tywin would go on to rule the Kingdoms, and he's be the best choice to lead against the invasion of the Others.

[Quiet Isle]

David Selig summed up my sentiments on Tywin.

TV Tywin is a far more humanized character, but his interactions with Arya never took place in the books so I think you need to separate the two portrayals.

I know we hear a few times that Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms while Hand but we have reason to doubt how true that might be. Aerys turned down the marriage with Cersei which places a big question about how much influence Tywin wielded over him. There is also the Defiance at Duskendale. We know what Tywin's solution would have been (Rains of Castamere) yet Aerys chose a course in direct opposition to Tywin's signature solution. Tywin still may have been quite influential in ruling or he may just simply have been an attack dog Aerys kept around like Tywin keeps Gregor. It is hard to say for certain with the evidence available, but the claims that he ruled the Seven Kingdoms are at best highly exaggerated. We also have the example of the Blackwater where we see Tywin publicly being given the lion share of the credit for something he had precious little to do with.

Tywin became Hand and married Joanna before his father died. So Joanna was the real day to day ruler of Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. She was said to rule at home and since Tywin was Hand and mostly in KL their entire married life there is probably a great deal of truth in that. After Joanna's death Tywin remained Hand until about a year before Robert's Rebellion when Jaime joined the KG. Kevan probably took Joanna's place as castellan of the Rock. Just based on his biography Tywin never really sat as the full time ruler of anything until a year before the rebellion. Sure he was Lord of Casterly Rock, but he wouldn't be much more involved in ruling it than Ned was in ruling Winterfell while he was Hand.

Tyrion notes at least twice that Kevan doesn't have thoughts his father didn't have first. After Tywin dies we learn that Kevan is quite competent on his own-- so much so that Varys kills him. We don't know how involved Kevan was with Tywin's decisions. He could be the whole brains of the operation or he could have played the part of the lickspittle that Tyrion seems to see. We aren't given enough information to know. Tywin does make some pretty awful choices. He gives LF the Riverlands and then his blessing to go marry Lysa even after Tyrion warns him the man can't be trusted. He's willingly handing LF control over 2 of the 7 kingdoms (complete with a Tully to secure his Riverlands claim) in the midst of an ongoing civil war. (and this is LF's reward for arranging the assassination of Joffrey.) Just because LF hasn't backstabbed the Lannisters yet with the dagger they gave him doesn't make giving the Riverlands and blessing his marriage to Lysa any less of an extraordinarily bad idea.

His going to war at the end of GoT wasn't well thought through either. If Robert lived he would have lost. Dorne was in all probability going to be his enemy. If Renly and Stannis didn't infight he would have lost. If the Vale joined in he would have lost (imagine a host under the Blackfish attacking him in the rear while he engaged Roose Bolton.) If Robb was able to utilize Theon to bring in the Iron Islands he would have lost. These were all likelihoods or at least reasonable knowable possibilities that he had no contingency plan to deal with.

After the Red Wedding and Tyrion's trial Tywin becomes very concerned about not offending Dorne for fear that Stannis will gamble on a Dornish alliance. It is the Red Wedding that enables Stannis to gamble on the North. Tywin expected that to be a finishing blow to end all opposition but it hardly worked out that way. He also didn't account for Jon Snow. There is a living "son" of Eddard Stark still in the North. The North reacting in an extremely negative way to the Red Wedding and rallying behind Jon is not exactly an unforseeable outcome after the murder of all the other Stark children. Tywin didn't exactly dot his i's and cross his t's on that one either.

So we have ample evidence of bad decisions by Tywin during the books and reason to question the full veracity of the reputation he has prior to the start of the books. Both Littlefinger and Varys clearly prefer a Lannister on the throne with Tywin as Hand to a Stannis and that in and of itself is very telling.

wow. Thank you for that analysis. I just reread a chapter with Kevan, cersei, and later with ehm Varys. That note you had about tywin's opinion on Kevan really got me thinking. don't forget he liked whores too (not that there's anything wrog with that!) but that was NOT the public image he wanted projected.

[Gurkhal]

He was a monster and way overrated as a politician and a military commander. A lying hypocrite and a disgusting excuse for a human being.

Good thing is he'll burn in the seven hells for a long, long time. :cool4:

What a load of crap.

I know we hear a few times that Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms while Hand but we have reason to doubt how true that might be. Aerys turned down the marriage with Cersei which places a big question about how much influence Tywin wielded over him. There is also the Defiance at Duskendale. We know what Tywin's solution would have been (Rains of Castamere) yet Aerys chose a course in direct opposition to Tywin's signature solution. Tywin still may have been quite influential in ruling or he may just simply have been an attack dog Aerys kept around like Tywin keeps Gregor. It is hard to say for certain with the evidence available, but the claims that he ruled the Seven Kingdoms are at best highly exaggerated. We also have the example of the Blackwater where we see Tywin publicly being given the lion share of the credit for something he had precious little to do with.

Really? What reasons are are there? Its said that "Tywin ruled the kingdom" which should mean that he was the one doing the actual work and we know that Aerys was jealous of him for that reason. As for Duskendale House Darklyn and Hollard was exterminated after gruesome torture with only a single child allowed to live because Barristan Selmy dirtectly asked the king for it. Its fairly obvious that Aerys was trying to outdo Tywin with the Rains of Castamere in mind. No one thinks that Gregor Clegane rules the Westerlands, and no one would think that Tywin ruled the kingdom if he was just an attack dog. There is actually very little reason beside wishful conjecture to doubt that Tywin did in fact rule the kingdom in practice.

As for Aerys and the marriage its simply highlights that as Tywin was doing the job and getting the game for it, Aerys got bitter and jealous and wanted some reason to feel superior to Tywin.

Tywin became Hand and married Joanna before his father died. So Joanna was the real day to day ruler of Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. She was said to rule at home and since Tywin was Hand and mostly in KL their entire married life there is probably a great deal of truth in that. After Joanna's death Tywin remained Hand until about a year before Robert's Rebellion when Jaime joined the KG. Kevan probably took Joanna's place as castellan of the Rock. Just based on his biography Tywin never really sat as the full time ruler of anything until a year before the rebellion. Sure he was Lord of Casterly Rock, but he wouldn't be much more involved in ruling it than Ned was in ruling Winterfell while he was Hand.

Actually he sat as Hand of King Aerys in King's Landing and ruling the kingdoms should beat ruling a single region of it in complexity. Also considering that Tywin had three children with Joanna, including Tyrion, it would make little sense to think that Tywin and Joanna did not spend time with each other, if that's what you are trying to say.

Tyrion notes at least twice that Kevan doesn't have thoughts his father didn't have first. After Tywin dies we learn that Kevan is quite competent on his own-- so much so that Varys kills him. We don't know how involved Kevan was with Tywin's decisions. He could be the whole brains of the operation or he could have played the part of the lickspittle that Tyrion seems to see. We aren't given enough information to know. Tywin does make some pretty awful choices. He gives LF the Riverlands and then his blessing to go marry Lysa even after Tyrion warns him the man can't be trusted. He's willingly handing LF control over 2 of the 7 kingdoms (complete with a Tully to secure his Riverlands claim) in the midst of an ongoing civil war. (and this is LF's reward for arranging the assassination of Joffrey.) Just because LF hasn't backstabbed the Lannisters yet with the dagger they gave him doesn't make giving the Riverlands and blessing his marriage to Lysa any less of an extraordinarily bad idea.

Since Littlefinger has shown himself very competent and also served the Lannister cause it would make sense to reward him. Its more logical to try and gain his loyalty for Tommen's reign than to fuck him over and hope he won't live to cause enough problem. Also punishing people, no matter how vile they are, for doing you favors sets a very bad example to your own side.

His going to war at the end of GoT wasn't well thought through either. If Robert lived he would have lost. Dorne was in all probability going to be his enemy. If Renly and Stannis didn't infight he would have lost. If the Vale joined in he would have lost (imagine a host under the Blackfish attacking him in the rear while he engaged Roose Bolton.) If Robb was able to utilize Theon to bring in the Iron Islands he would have lost. These were all likelihoods or at least reasonable knowable possibilities that he had no contingency plan to deal with.

I will agree that this was a bit overreaching but the war kind of grow from what was supposed to be a minor affair to a major war. Also the Baratheon internal dislike should have been common knowledge by then. The affair with Lysa was a gamble but sometimes you need to take risk.

After the Red Wedding and Tyrion's trial Tywin becomes very concerned about not offending Dorne for fear that Stannis will gamble on a Dornish alliance. It is the Red Wedding that enables Stannis to gamble on the North. Tywin expected that to be a finishing blow to end all opposition but it hardly worked out that way. He also didn't account for Jon Snow. There is a living "son" of Eddard Stark still in the North. The North reacting in an extremely negative way to the Red Wedding and rallying behind Jon is not exactly an unforseeable outcome after the murder of all the other Stark children. Tywin didn't exactly dot his i's and cross his t's on that one either.

Stannis was a broken force and the North don't seem to hold all that much left, not to mention that a proper Northmen, Roose Bolton, was going north to claim this region. In regards to Jon Snow the Watch is supposed to be neutral so if a Stark son decides to tell the Watch's traditions and oaths to go and fuck themselves because he's mad, then that's hardly something that Tywin can be blamed for. The contrary would be more in character for a half-Stark.

So we have ample evidence of bad decisions by Tywin during the books and reason to question the full veracity of the reputation he has prior to the start of the books. Both Littlefinger and Varys clearly prefer a Lannister on the throne with Tywin as Hand to a Stannis and that in and of itself is very telling.

We have ample evidence that just as in real life everything don't wortk out exactly as you want them, and that goes for every character in the series and in the real world. I don't see what's very telling with the Tywin and Stannis thing either. Varys and Littlefinger would without a doubt have found a way to kill either Tywin or Stannis if they become ruler, as I think that Varys also did using Tyrion as a proxy.

I think he was the greatest man of his generation, the best politician we see in the books, and overall the most capable person we are introduced to. He's utterly ruthless, but his skills as a general are never explored IMO and therefore are overrated and underrated by those who claim to know what he was in that regard. His biggest mistake was being unable to see past Tyrion's deformities or forgive him for Johanna's death, and it ultimately leads to his demise. Let's be honest though, if Tyrion doesn't kill Tywin, how do things pan out from there? Tywin would go on to rule the Kingdoms, and he's be the best choice to lead against the invasion of the Others.

While I don't think that Tywin is overrated as a commander I think that you otherwise make some good points.

[Knight Of Winter]

Tywin is a fine commander and very able administrator, sure, but I nonetheless find him quite a despicable human being and one of worst characters and villains in the series. This is a man to whom nothing is sacred - to whom everything: love, friendship, happines and very human lives are nothing more than means to a goal. And that ultimate goal is power of house Lannister - something for he is willing to sacrifice quite a lot: countless people getting killed, countless women getting raped, countless people traumatized, and even his own children's happiness. From the start he only viewed them as tools to use in order to increase his house's power - notice how furious he was when Jaime joined the Kingsguard and later sticked with that decision in ASOS (J: But I don't want to interhit Casterly Rock. T: Then you're not my son). Notice how quickly he gives up on Jaime as his son as soon as Jaime is captured. Notice how he treates Cersei as a mare to breed in ASOS.

What can you say about a guy who keeps people such as Vargo Hoat, Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane at his side. Gregor may be mindless killing and raping brute, but Tywin is the one who decides how much killing and raping needs to be done in order to subdue his enemies, and thus loosens or shortens Gregor's leash. And he's not even doing his evil deeds "for the kingdom" or "for the better world", his only motive is benefit to house Lannister, in expense of rest of the world, if need be.

I view him as person who is dedicated to solving his problems most efficiently, whithout regards for anything else, including human life. To list some examples:

* he wanted Tyrion to learn his lesson about whores - and so he ordered his wife gang-banged by his garrison. Tyrion hated his for it, and innocent Tysha was brutalized beyond measure, but (in Tywin's mind most important) - Tyrion learned his lesson

* he wants to diminish value of Stark's hostage - so the most effective way of doing it was to give up on Jaime as his son

* he wants to win the war as quickly as possible - and uses Gregor&co to murder, pillage and rape Riverlands villagers, thus weakening his enemies

* he wants to make sure Lannisters are on the winning side after Bob's Rebellion - and he has no qualms about killing two children to achieve it (really Tywin, which one gave you the greater fight? The little girl or an infant? )

For an ultimate judgement of his character - just look at how his children react after his death - his daughter spends to time mourning and already thinks about surpassing him, his elder son is unsure about how to feel, while his younger son is his murderer. Great job raising them, Tywin.

[The Mountain That Flies]

Every time the question of Tywin's military genius is brought up, it merits pointing out that was repeatedly beaten by Robb Stark (who had a smaller force and was about five decades less experienced), and may well have lost the overall war in the Riverlands if Robb had been better at communicating with Edmure. Yes, Robb relied on a fair bit of deception, and yes, you shouldn't go into every battle assuming the fifteen year-old commanding the opposite side is secretly brilliant, but Tywin got punked by Robb more than enough to raise questions about his tactical prowess.

Obviously Tywin's political skills are considerable, but even there, he gets more credit than he deserves. The Red Wedding was Walder Frey's idea, and while he never would have done it without Tywin's support, every bit of it was Frey-conceived and Frey-executed. Getting Cersi married to Robert was equal parts Tywin and Jon Arryn, and he was ready to marry Jaime to Littlefinger's leftovers before Harrenhall (and since it was Littlefinger who secured Tyrell support prior to the Blackwater, he and Tyrion deserve credit for that win, not Tywin).

I'm not saying the man isn't very smart, nor am I saying he's incompetent as a battle commnader. Far from either, he' one of the more effective leaders in Westeros, and his time as Hand is a testament to that (though how he would have dealt with the events leading up to Robert's Rebellion is worthy of a thread all its own). However, Tywin Lannister was hardly the deity that many in Westeros, and indeed on this forum, believe him to be.

[Gurkhal]

Every time the question of Tywin's military genius is brought up, it merits pointing out that was repeatedly beaten by Robb Stark (who had a smaller force and was about five decades less experienced), and may well have lost the overall war in the Riverlands if Robb had been better at communicating with Edmure. Yes, Robb relied on a fair bit of deception, and yes, you shouldn't go into every battle assuming the fifteen year-old commanding the opposite side is secretly brilliant, but Tywin got punked by Robb more than enough to raise questions about his tactical prowess.

Actually can you name a single time that Robb even faced Tywin? I can't because Robb only ever faced Jaime and Stafford Lannister in battle, never Tywin.

[Frey Pie]

David Selig summed up my sentiments on Tywin.

TV Tywin is a far more humanized character, but his interactions with Arya never took place in the books so I think you need to separate the two portrayals.

I know we hear a few times that Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms while Hand but we have reason to doubt how true that might be. Aerys turned down the marriage with Cersei which places a big question about how much influence Tywin wielded over him. There is also the Defiance at Duskendale. We know what Tywin's solution would have been (Rains of Castamere) yet Aerys chose a course in direct opposition to Tywin's signature solution. Tywin still may have been quite influential in ruling or he may just simply have been an attack dog Aerys kept around like Tywin keeps Gregor. It is hard to say for certain with the evidence available, but the claims that he ruled the Seven Kingdoms are at best highly exaggerated. We also have the example of the Blackwater where we see Tywin publicly being given the lion share of the credit for something he had precious little to do with.

Tywin became Hand and married Joanna before his father died. So Joanna was the real day to day ruler of Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. She was said to rule at home and since Tywin was Hand and mostly in KL their entire married life there is probably a great deal of truth in that. After Joanna's death Tywin remained Hand until about a year before Robert's Rebellion when Jaime joined the KG. Kevan probably took Joanna's place as castellan of the Rock. Just based on his biography Tywin never really sat as the full time ruler of anything until a year before the rebellion. Sure he was Lord of Casterly Rock, but he wouldn't be much more involved in ruling it than Ned was in ruling Winterfell while he was Hand.

Tyrion notes at least twice that Kevan doesn't have thoughts his father didn't have first. After Tywin dies we learn that Kevan is quite competent on his own-- so much so that Varys kills him. We don't know how involved Kevan was with Tywin's decisions. He could be the whole brains of the operation or he could have played the part of the lickspittle that Tyrion seems to see. We aren't given enough information to know. Tywin does make some pretty awful choices. He gives LF the Riverlands and then his blessing to go marry Lysa even after Tyrion warns him the man can't be trusted. He's willingly handing LF control over 2 of the 7 kingdoms (complete with a Tully to secure his Riverlands claim) in the midst of an ongoing civil war. (and this is LF's reward for arranging the assassination of Joffrey.) Just because LF hasn't backstabbed the Lannisters yet with the dagger they gave him doesn't make giving the Riverlands and blessing his marriage to Lysa any less of an extraordinarily bad idea.

His going to war at the end of GoT wasn't well thought through either. If Robert lived he would have lost. Dorne was in all probability going to be his enemy. If Renly and Stannis didn't infight he would have lost. If the Vale joined in he would have lost (imagine a host under the Blackfish attacking him in the rear while he engaged Roose Bolton.) If Robb was able to utilize Theon to bring in the Iron Islands he would have lost. These were all likelihoods or at least reasonable knowable possibilities that he had no contingency plan to deal with.

After the Red Wedding and Tyrion's trial Tywin becomes very concerned about not offending Dorne for fear that Stannis will gamble on a Dornish alliance. It is the Red Wedding that enables Stannis to gamble on the North. Tywin expected that to be a finishing blow to end all opposition but it hardly worked out that way. He also didn't account for Jon Snow. There is a living "son" of Eddard Stark still in the North. The North reacting in an extremely negative way to the Red Wedding and rallying behind Jon is not exactly an unforseeable outcome after the murder of all the other Stark children. Tywin didn't exactly dot his i's and cross his t's on that one either.

So we have ample evidence of bad decisions by Tywin during the books and reason to question the full veracity of the reputation he has prior to the start of the books. Both Littlefinger and Varys clearly prefer a Lannister on the throne with Tywin as Hand to a Stannis and that in and of itself is very telling.

Great summary. In two strokes of a pen LF was made one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful man in Westeros. Ruling over the Vale and the Riverlands gives LF as many men to call on almost as the Tyrells, and far more then any other, and almost as much wealth as Tywin himself. People mock Ned for being so trusting of LF and at the same time lauding Tywin for his craftiness, never realising Tywin was duped by the man also

His stance on Dorne was witless. Gregor dead and a happy Dorne, or Gregor alive and 25000 angry Dornish men? Basically Tywin was setting himself up to rule only the West and the Crownlands with anything approaching authority

[Gurkhal]

His stance on Dorne was witless. Gregor dead and a happy Dorne, or Gregor alive and 25000 angry Dornish men? Basically Tywin was setting himself up to rule only the West and the Crownlands with anything approaching authority

If I recall Tywin was aware that giving the Dornish Gregor would never satisfy their desire for vengeance. Only Tywin's head would do in the end and that was something that Tywin was obviously not willing to give them.

[Frey Pie]

If I recall Tywin was aware that giving the Dornish Gregor would never satisfy their desire for vengeance. Only Tywin's head would do in the end and that was something that Tywin was obviously not willing to give them.

Fair enough not wanting to lose your head. But Tywin made how many overtures to the Dornish? He said they had their vengeance when Amory Lorch was killed by a bear. He wouldnt give them Gregor. He didnt offer them anything and he knew they were angry. Only Tyrion worked well with them or made any good effort

[David Selig]

What a load of crap.

OK, which part is wrong?

"A monster" - inarguable. He ordered the mass murder, raping and maiming of thousands of civilians. Then there are Tysha, baby Aegon and Rhaenys....

"way overrated as a politician" - very much so. How many allies did Tywin have at the start of the War of the Five Kings? Zero. Who saved his butt by getting the Tyrells for allies? Tyrion and LF, he didn't do anything. His only political success was the RW, and in the long term it was bound to backfire.

"Way overrated as a military commander" - inarguable. He never won a battle in which he didn't have an overwhelming advantage in numbers. Yet so many people talk about him as some military genius.

"A lying hypocrite" - self-evident. He keeps pressing his children into political marriages yet he married for love and never remarried. He's very dismissive of Tyrion hiring prostitutes yet did it himself.

"A disgusting excuse for a human being" - a mass murderer, a child killer, a rapist by proxy, a selfish hypocrite, a terrible father...Need I go on?

"Good thing is he'll burn in the seven hells for a long, long time." - OK, this is debatable, I admit, maybe the Faith is wrong. ;)

But if there's any version of hell in ASOIF, he'd be there for sure.

[mormont]

Wrong forum.