DaveSumm Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I also think people miss out on the idea that "self-defence" is stupid in most cases. Pulling a gun in a situation where you have been punched would count in the US as a defensive use of a firearm, it is actually a dangerously reckless escalation of a situation. Facing down a burglar with a gun is insanity, unless he is entering the room in which you or your family are. People in crime surveys who state they have used a gun against criminals are often reporting arguments that wouldn't have got out of hand if there had been no guns, or situations where they have imbecilically put themselves and their families in harm's way because of their inability to calculate risk.Yup, it all points to the rather disturbing opinion of a lot of gun owners that if someone breaks into your home they deserve to be shot in the face. I'm personally a bit of a Stannis on this one: don't confuse two crimes. Performing a crime doesn't magically mean you can have crimes committed against you, they have nothing to do with each other. I can't really picture a burglar robbing a house who thinks "I'll steal some stuff, if someone gets shot then oh well", robbery and murder are quite different things for this guy to be getting mixed up in. If he comes packing, I imagine it's for his own self defence in case the home owner has a gun. So again, needless escalation. I'd go as far as to say that if someone burgled my house with a gun I would still turn down one myself, preferring hiding/pleading than turning the situation into a shoot out. Overall I would rather there was one gun in my house than two, regardless of who has them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 No, it's not.Yes, it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CityApache Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 The above seems like a perfect illustration of the answer to the question: does anyone actually believe either side will convince the other? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I guess im the Ralph Nader of the thread, trying to introduce a 3rd option and getting no popularity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seli Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Yes, it isWhat is so difficult to understand about the word and? Barring the one item on the list that was identified as incorrect the title covers the contents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser_not_appearing_yet Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Btw, my only experience with guns in America comes from visiting a 'gun shop' with my hyper-republican second cousin thingy, and it was ITSTL.That place had some weird looking dudes in it. The fact that these guns seem to instinctively attract weirdos is definitely a black mark, no offence to any of our gun-owning boarders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 What is so difficult to understand about the word and? Barring the one item on the list that was identified as incorrect the title covers the contents.Nothing, the title is still false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowOverBooks Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 It seems like a perfect illustration of the answer to the question: does anyone actually believe either side will convince the other? ;)No, but we MIGHT convince some people who are reading, but not posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncalagonTheBlack Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 historical list of countries by firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in one year -http://en.wikipedia....ated_death_rateUnited States — Gun Facts, Figures and the Law - http://www.gunpolicy...n/united-statesSome interesting stats from the 2nd link comparing the US to the second most populous country in the world,India -The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in the United States is 270,000,000The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in India is 40,000,000The rate of private gun ownership in the United States is 88.82 firearms per 100 peopleThe rate of private gun ownership in India is 3.363 firearms per 100 peopleIn a comparison of the number of privately owned guns in 178 countries, the United States ranked at No. 1In a comparison of the rate of private gun ownership in 179 countries, India ranked at No. 110In the United States, annual firearm homicides in 2008: 9,484In India, annual deaths resulting from firearms total in 2008 - 6,219 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CityApache Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Even more interesting for me is a comparison of the number of privately owned firearms (270.000.000) and government guns in the US (less than 4.000.000). I'm stunned.And for the stats listed above - it's a bit more clear when you use a ratio per 100.000 people as for firearm homicides. In US it was 2,98, and in India 0,3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 The India-USA comparison is striking remembering that there are areas of armed insurrection and resistance against the government in several different parts of India so it might be reasonable to assume a high level of gun violence there.But I suppose in the USA a firearm is just another consumer durable, except with the advantage for the manufacturers that customers feel free to own more than one which they don't with washing machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor's Bastard Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Even more interesting for me is a comparison of the number of privately owned firearms (270.000.000) and government guns in the US (less than 4.000.000). I'm stunned..Thats crazy, woulda never thought that.Does that count police guns too at state and local levels i wonder?link wouldnt open for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 India seems to me to have a very high death rate per-gun, compared to the US. OTOH, The US has something more than one gun per adult, so one assumed that has pretty much reached saturation quite some time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CityApache Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Does that count police guns too at state and local levels i wonder?link wouldnt open for meAs I understand it does. 3,05 m in the army and less than 900.000 in the police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 The India-USA comparison is striking remembering that there are areas of armed insurrection and resistance against the government in several different parts of India so it might be reasonable to assume a high level of gun violence there.Yes, it is very striking that they had to go as far afield as India to get some vaguely favourable looking statistics. Comparing the US and India is comparing apples and pears.Even so, they had to cheat. Note that the deaths are given as absolute numbers and the gun ownership as a percentage (the population of India is higher than the US). And also note they are comparing "firearm homicides" with "deaths resulting from firearms".P.S. And I note they chose 2008. That was the year of the Mumbai massacre in India, in which a gang of terrorists attacked the city and shot hundreds of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Look a bit deeper there, at the actual India stats - the homicide rate has been steadily dropping, down to 6k from 12k in the 90's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CityApache Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Yes, it is very striking that they had to go as far afield as India to get some vaguely favourable looking statistics. [...] Even so, they had to cheat. But who's "they" here? I believe it was AncalagonTheBlack who made the coparison with India. On the linked site you can compare US data with any country in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Look a bit deeper there, at the actual India stats - the homicide rate has been steadily dropping, down to 6k from 12k in the 90's.A major outburst of fighting between the Sikhs and the State came to an end in the 1990s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Do you think that's it? I've been trying to figure out if the figures include, well, war, and i'm not sure for Israel. Anyway, this is interestinghttp://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/12/gun-ads-bushmaster-mattel\Sober, responsible self defence of the little ones all the way there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg1982 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Because having a gun correlates strongly with you or a member of your family being murdered with a gun. If you don't have a gun, you are less likely to be murdered. From the other thread... Correlation doesn't equal causation. Or at least that is what I learned in school. Gang bangers in the inner city might own guns (illegally I might point out) and also use them to kill each other. That doesn't mean that a law-abiding citizen will be murdered because they like to go hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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