Theory About Lightbringer

[protar]

So I'm one of the people who believes that Lightbringer is not in fact a sword, but is in fact the dragons. It makes the most sense as the story of how Dany hatches her dragons matches with the story of Lightbringer's forging. However it does seem strange to me how dragons could mutate throughout history into a sword. So I was thinking that maybe AA/Last Hero/PTWP (Who I believe to be the same person.) engaged in a ritual to summon dragons to Westeros and THEN, used dragonflame to forge the first Valyrian Steel sword. It wouldn't have been any different than any other Valyrian steel sword (though it would've been called dragonsteel, due to Valyria not existing yet.), but its uniqueness at the time would lead to it becoming more and more prominent in the myth.

After defeating the Others, AA would likely want to high tail it out of Westeros, and so would leave for Essos with his followers and his dragons to found Valyria, leaving only remnants of his blood behind with the Daynes. I have a whole bunch of crazy theories for this time period but as they're not overly formulated I won't go in to them until I get them into a more coherent shape.

[Dementia]

I don't get it. Azor Ahai, summons dragons...dragons! Then instead of using them to fight the Great Other, he has them make a sword...but that's not Lightbringer and isn't used to slay the Great Other?

[Son of the Smiling Knight]

I think Lightbringer will never be definitely found and someone will end up getting a magic sword that burns with heat and Dany's dragons will be used as well.

[Khal Cherian]

Lightbringer is a real sword, it is really hot and it is sitting in the pools deep in the cripts of Winterfell to temper it and that is why Winterfell has hot springs and is warmer than it should be.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

Lightbringer is a real sword, it is really hot and it is sitting in the pools deep in the cripts of Winterfell to temper it and that is why Winterfell has hot springs and is warmer than it should be.

Interesting, and all this time I thought it was geothermal energy.

[protar]

I don't get it. Azor Ahai, summons dragons...dragons! Then instead of using them to fight the Great Other, he has them make a sword...but that's not Lightbringer and isn't used to slay the Great Other?

No, AA summons dragons as his magical companions, but also forges a magical sword with them because you know, ya can't swing a dragon about with a tail. :P

[Know Face Man]

Lightbringer is Dawn.

Dawn is the metal from a falling comet, or falling star. Heated up on entry to the earth. Making that metal pure from so much heat.

Valyrian Steel is Steel that is heated up using Dragon Flame also making it pure and has spells casted into it.

What makes Valyrian Steel so strong is that its pure Steel with almost no other elements. The only way to make Steel that way is to heat it up to extreme temperature say around 3000°

Only Dragon Flame and possibly a Falling Star or Falling Comet could get that Hot.

It just so happens Dawn is from a Falling Star.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

Lightbringer is Dawn.

Dawn is the metal from a falling comet, or falling star. Heated up on entry to the earth. Making that metal pure from so much heat.

Valyrian Steel is Steel that is heated up using Dragon Flame also making it pure and has spells casted into it.

What makes Valyrian Steel so strong is that its pure Steel with almost no other elements. The only way to make Steel that way is to heat it up to extreme temperature say around 3000°

Only Dragon Flame and possibly a Falling Star or Falling Comet could get that Hot.

It just so happens Dawn is from a Falling Star.

Good theory, I have seen this one a couple times. Do you have any book references to support this? If Lightbringer was literal, and it meant a sword, wouldn't the sword have to be forged, according to this prophecy to be exactly refulfilled? Or can AA wield a past Lightbringer? I see a distinction here, but I haven't seen many people think of it that way. Any theories?

[Know Face Man]

Good theory, I have seen this one a couple times. Do you have any book references to support this? If Lightbringer was literal, and it meant a sword, wouldn't the sword have to be forged, according to this prophecy to be exactly refulfilled? Or can AA wield a past Lightbringer? I see a distinction here, but I haven't seen many people think of it that way. Any theories?

I have a few theories on Lightbringer needing to be reforged. One such theory is when Ned fought Arthur Dayne, Dawn might have broke in two. Similar to the way the Hound broke the Lightning Lords sword in two. This is why we haven't seen Dawn yet because it is at Starfell waiting to be reforeged..

Now the First Lightbringer was Dawn.. If their has to be another Lightbringer forged my guess would be Dany Dragon's as the new Lightbringer.

Another theory I have is that Valyrian Steel was made trying to recreate a weapon similar to Lightbringer.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is why we haven't seen Dawn yet because it is at Starfell waiting to be reforeged..

How can it be reforged when it's already been, you know, forged? That doesn't make any sense.

[Sevumar]

So I was thinking that maybe AA/Last Hero/PTWP (Who I believe to be the same person.) engaged in a ritual to summon dragons to Westeros and THEN, used dragonflame to forge the first Valyrian Steel sword. It wouldn't have been any different than any other Valyrian steel sword (though it would've been called dragonsteel, due to Valyria not existing yet.), but its uniqueness at the time would lead to it becoming more and more prominent in the myth.

I think there could be an important role for dragonflame in facilitating the production of Valyrian steel, but I think that the Azor Ahai mythology would record the use of dragons in the creation of the sword if they were known to play a role. The tale of Lightbringer's forging is already epic and somewhat detailed. If there had been a temple dragon there for the forging of Lightbringer, the story probably really have recorded it.

After defeating the Others, AA would likely want to high tail it out of Westeros, and so would leave for Essos with his followers and his dragons to found Valyria, leaving only remnants of his blood behind with the Daynes. I have a whole bunch of crazy theories for this time period but as they're not overly formulated I won't go in to them until I get them into a more coherent shape.

There's a good chance that the existence of spellforged steel predates the founding of Valyrian civilization. However, I don't think that Azor Ahai saved the world and then took off to found Valyria. There's nothing in the story that would lead us to that conclusion. Most of the evidence points to Asshai as the source of Azor Ahai mythology and R'hllorism.

Valyrian Steel is Steel that is heated up using Dragon Flame also making it pure and has spells casted into it.

What makes Valyrian Steel so strong is that its pure Steel with almost no other elements. The only way to make Steel that way is to heat it up to extreme temperature say around 3000°

Saying that something is "pure" steel is misleading, as steel it itself an alloy of iron and carbon, with carbon content ranging between 0.2% and 2.1%. As the carbon content changes, the properties of the steel change with it. A wide variety of steels are produced for different purposes and they're often improved by alloying them with specific proportions of other materials. Because we're dealing with magic in Martin's world, it's impossible to say how much the quality of the smithing and metalwork are responsible for Valyrian steel's well-known properties and how much derives from the spells.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

In my view:

"Lightbringer" is the title given by the followers of R'hllor to whatever weapon was used to defeat the Others during the Long Night, "bringing the light" during the Battle for the Dawn. Therefore, whatever weapon is used by TPTWP to defeat the Others will automatically be "Lightbringer"... whether it's a dragon, the Night's Watch, or Longclaw.

Personally, I believe the original "Lightbringer" was a dragon and that 'dragon steel' is a misinterpretation of the dragon as the story was passed down through time. Still, that doesn't mean the new "Lightbringer" will be a dragon.

I've also found some interesting parallels to support my theory that the original "Lightbringer" was a dragon.

"Lightbringer" is a term associated with the Azor Ahai myth. According to the myth, in battle the blade burned fiery hot (dragons burn hot). When Azor Ahai thrust his sword in the belly of the beast (Could this beast be an Other?), its blood began to boil, smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flames. Then, when Drogon (a dragon) burned Kraznys in ASoS, "A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks."

I also believe the Qartheen story about the origin of dragons is also related to the AA myth:

The trader from Qarth stated to Doreah:

"Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

According to the AA myth as told by Salladhor Saan:

"Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes."

The moon=Nissa Nissa (Nissa Nissa was cracked open just like the moon.)

The sun=Azor Ahai (Azor Ahai is a great hero to the followers of R'hllor and the sun is the greatest weapon of their god.)

Cracking=stabbing

Dragons=Lightbringer

Just a few of my thoughts. It seems to me that the followers of R'hllor have twisted just about everything to fit their religion The story of the Long Night, the PTWP prophecy, the origins of the dragons, etc.

[shk12344]

There are too many references to Jon Snow's burnt hand/fingers for me believe that the Lightbringer is not a sword. Clearly GRRM is setting up Jon's burnt hand/fingers for something big, since he references it in every Jon's POVs. Only plausible conclusion, at least to me is, Jon will use it to create/find Lightbringer.

[Sevumar]

"Lightbringer" is the title given by the followers of R'hllor to whatever weapon was used to defeat the Others during the Long Night, "bringing the light" during the Battle for the Dawn. Therefore, whatever weapon is used by TPTWP to defeat the Others will automatically be "Lightbringer"... whether it's a dragon, the Night's Watch, or Longclaw.

This could very well be the case, but I think it would seem like a letdown in light of the level of detail given in the Azor Ahai stories. It would also be a letdown if everything happened exactly as portrayed in the stories, so the truth is probably going to be somewhere in between. For myself, I think it would be kind of lame if Lightbringer just turned out to be whatever weapon of choice the leader of the War for the Dawn had at hand. So much of the lore is sword-specific that I'd like to see a sword figure in the battle against the others (and as a badge of office for Azor Ahai) in a meaningful way.

"Lightbringer" is a term associated with the Azor Ahai myth. According to the myth, in battle the blade burned fiery hot (dragons burn hot). When Azor Ahai thrust his sword in the belly of the beast (Could this beast be an Other?), its blood began to boil, smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flames. Then, when Drogon (a dragon) burned Kraznys in ASoS, "A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks."

What I'm getting from this is whatever the source of heat for Lightbringer, it burned very hot, but not hot enough to destroy the source of the flame itself. We've seen that dragons can be a source of such flame, but I'm not certain we can say that they're the only thing capable of producing it. In a world where magic seems to be growing stronger, I wonder if we're going to see similarly powerful sources of flame outside of dragonfire.

We have a reference for the idea that Lightbringer burned brightly in battle, and it's not mentioned that the flame had any unusual quality to it. Meanwhile, dragonfire is always described as having very distinct and unusual coloring, something that you'd think would be recorded in a story about a magical sword wreathed in flame.

The trader from Qarth stated to Doreah:

"Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

According to the AA myth as told by Salladhor Saan:

"Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes."

I'm not sure whether the mentions of cracking the moon can be interpreted as a reliable report of an actual event. It seems like this expression might be used as an example of something only a supernaturally powerful force could achieve. The moon is frequently used as a symbol of things that are unattainable by ordinary people or through ordinary means, so I think there's a good chance that this expression might symbolically refer to an unusually powerful, heart-wrenching scream. If we were talking about a Rothfuss book, I'd give this a higher chance of being true.

As for the origins of dragons, it seems like this is clearly mythological. I don't see any reason to assume that the distance between Martin's world and its moon(s) is occupied by anything other than space, as it is with our world. It seems highly unlikely that a moon would split to produce the first million dragons without other references to this event in history. We're told a few times that dragons have not completely left the world, although many people herald the Targaryen dragons as a return, yet there was no splitting of the remaining moon.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I will skip a bunch of things, and jump back to the OP.

While I don't agree with the theory that the NW is lightbringer, I get it, it has some points in its favor.

As to Dragons, I don't see this theory as a possible outcome, the fact that GRRM decated one of the books to a women, because "she is the one who talked me into adding the dragons" makes me think...

1. They were not part of the original story.

2. They are a Red Herring

3. That what ever they do, it won't change what will happen in the basic story.

[Sworn Shield]

I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn.

I like the Night's Watch theory that they are Lightbringer. My view is that Jon is AA, he wields Longclaw and will not wield any other sword.

[protar]

I will skip a bunch of things, and jump back to the OP.

While I don't agree with the theory that the NW is lightbringer, I get it, it has some points in its favor.

As to Dragons, I don't see this theory as a possible outcome, the fact that GRRM decated one of the books to a women, because "she is the one who talked me into adding the dragons" makes me think...

1. They were not part of the original story.

2. They are a Red Herring

3. That what ever they do, it won't change what will happen in the basic story.

I don't think we can necessarily predict what is going to happen based on that. I've heard that originally ASOIAF was going to have no magic whatsoever, and yet it would be foolish to say that the Others for instance have no part to play. I think we can assume that dragons were added in very early into the story, and now have a major effect.

[Belisarius09]

I like the idea that Dawn was lightbringer.

[dragontamer]

Personally, I believe the original "Lightbringer" was a dragon and that 'dragon steel' is a misinterpretation of the dragon as the story was passed down through time. Still, that doesn't mean the new "Lightbringer" will be a dragon.

According to the wiki dragons were discovered by Valyrians and used as weapons 5,000 years ago while the AA stories date back some 8,000 years. I know how confusing chronologies can be but if that's the case then dragons couldn't be the original Lightbringer.

My personal belief is that Dawn=Lightbringer. There are a few hints in the text pointing towards this direction but I could be wrong. What I definitely wouldn't want is LB being any weapon used by AA come again.

[The Dragon has three heads]

One of these days in going to write down my three fold theory on The last Hero, the Church of the red lot and the the boiling sword.

One day.