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Margaery: Was Renly There First?


Heir to His House

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I'm also certain (though can't find the quote) that Margaery did not follow Renly to Storm's End. They were married and together for the tourney alone, meaning precious little time to sleep with each other, especially as heirs isn't likely to be Renly's first priority. He has to get the crown first. He's very much like Robert, doing all the fun parts first, before dealing with less pleasant duties. They just had different notions of fun, is all.

Besides, the Tyrells had little to gain by lieing about her virginity - but apparently a good bit to lose. The moon tea, by the way, was for one her cousins. It was suspected that she slept with her betrothed a little too early and she would be less singled out if Margaery asked in her stead.

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He might have been too drunk on the wedding night, but he was creeping North slowly with his whole army and feasting at several castles. Renly and Margaery had ample time to do the deed and I do not doubt that he didn't do it. As it has been pointed out, having a heir is important, so there's really no reason to put if off. It may also explain the moon tea by Pycelle, if that wasn't a lie.

That question has absolutely nothing to do with him being gay or not.

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How? Have you considered Renly's sexual orientation? There is also the fact that he didn't know he was going to die soon with the largest army in Westeros at his back.

One, there's plenty RL gay fathers with biological children. Two, Renly declared that he'd have a heir within a year, and it was absolutely crucial that his son should have coal-black hair, considering the shit hurricane that happened because Joffrey didn't, so Renly wouldn't dare to have another man do the deed.

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He might have been too drunk on the wedding night, but he was creeping North slowly with his whole army and feasting at several castles. Renly and Margaery had ample time to do the deed and I do not doubt that he didn't do it. As it has been pointed out, having a heir is important, so there's really no reason to put if off. It may also explain the moon tea by Pycelle, if that wasn't a lie.

That question has absolutely nothing to do with him being gay or not.

Yeah but being too drunk on his wedding night could cause other problems. Renly and the Tyrells were probably both aware of the risk of having an heir while at war, I think not having one was suiting them fine, and Renly's boast to Stannis could have either been that, or making a point to a disapproving older brother.

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Why? If the war took longer and Renly does die, they could continue their war in the name of the (unborn) heir. If there's no heir, they have to look out for other options as they did. And they do have the biggest army in the kingdom while the other armies are already fighting (North, West), split up (Stormlands, Crownlands) or too small alone (Dorne). They don't really lose anything by having a heir and nobody expected Renly to die anyways.

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Why? If the war took longer and Renly does die, they could continue their war in the name of the (unborn) heir. If there's no heir, they have to look out for other options as they did. And they do have the biggest army in the kingdom while the other armies are already fighting (North, West), split up (Stormlands, Crownlands) or too small alone (Dorne). They don't really lose anything by having a heir and nobody expected Renly to die anyways.

But when Renly died he wasn't actually looking to fight anyone at the particular point in time. I reckon Marg is a virgin, and if she wasn't then the Tyrell's would just have made her drink tansy and moon tea to placate the Lannisters. The Marg-Joff wedding would have still happened because it made political sense.

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"Margaery may say that the marriage was never consummated, that Lord Renly had drunk too much wine at the wedding feast, but I promise you, the bit between his legs was anything but weary when last I saw it." Taena Merryweather AFFC page 585..

But of course this is not conclusive, Renly might well have been aroused then and still not have consummated his marriage. Edit: Or this might just have been a lie by Taena.

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"Margaery may say that the marriage was never consummated, that Lord Renly had drunk too much wine at the wedding feast, but I promise you, the bit between his legs was anything but weary when last I saw it." Taena Merryweather AFFC page 585..

But of course this is not conclusive, Renly might well have been aroused then and still not have consummated his marriage. Edit: Or this might just have been a lie by Taena.

I would have said that was a lie on Taena's part, she was trying to get Cersei to make the accusation on behalf of the Tyrells, after all.

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I dont think Renly is soo stupid that he would not have sex with MArg on her wedding night. People knew when Tyrion kept it in his pants. Mace would freak out. Yes Renly was gay and most people knew but consumating that marriage was one thing Renly really needed to do. His lords would of made him king but only Renly could make him a heir

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There is zero for Renly to gain by NOT sleeping with Margaery on the wedding night, and potentially much to gain if he does. For one thing, getting Margaery preggers would absolutely guarantee Tyrell support regardless of how the war plays out (obviously, I realize this may not necessarily happen with one torrid night, but there's still a chance). Second, consummation would make the marriage legitimate according to Westerosi tradition. Third, at the time Renly was looking highly likely to end up on the throne - supposing he became king, why would the Tyrells risk King Renly being able to void the marriage through lack of consummation, in order to free himself up for a different alliance?

Also, considering rumors of Renly's orientation exist, it would mollify those lords who might potentially use the possibility of no heir as a reason for lukewarm support.

Remember, NO ONE was expecting a shadow-baby plot device to destroy Renly's extremely strong position.

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One, there's plenty RL gay fathers with biological children. Two, Renly declared that he'd have a heir within a year, and it was absolutely crucial that his son should have coal-black hair, considering the shit hurricane that happened because Joffrey didn't, so Renly wouldn't dare to have another man do the deed.

1. Apple already beat you to that. Like I said before, I know of RL gay kings who fathered children.

2. He did declare he would have an heir within a year, but that was months after the wedding and a short while before he died. I wasn't saying he was going to have another man do the deed, just that he was going to put bedding Margaery on the back burner.

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1. Apple already beat you to that. Like I said before, I know of RL gay kings who fathered children.

2. He did declare he would have an heir within a year, but that was months after the wedding and a short while before he died. I wasn't saying he was going to have another man do the deed, just that he was going to put bedding Margaery on the back burner.

Bear in mind that a wedding is followed by a bedding. Tyrion dispensing with his bedding is highly unusual and exposes him to ridicule. It is a marriage custom in Westeros that the wedding guests not only carry the bride and groom to bed but strip them on the way.

Of course no one stayed in the bedchamber so you can argue that they just went to sleep but Renly and Margaery had their bedding. Unreliable witness though she is Taena Merryweather tells Cersei that [sic] "Renly was a a well made man and they may tell you that he was weary but there was nothing weary about the bit between his legs I assure you".

If there had been any suspiscion that the wedding had not been consumated I think rumour would have started up like wildfire threatening to undermine the grand alliance and that Renly would not have risked that because of a certain reluctance. Renly surely can't be outdone by Edward II of all people!!

It looks a little suspicious when there is a clear beneficiary to the revelation that a marriage was not consummated. Catherine of Aragon was married to Prince Arthur (the future Henry VIII's elder brother) for five months before he died. Canon Law forbade a man to marry his brother's widow so Catherine testified that her marriage to Arthur was never consummated. That's one consummation (or not) that had quite an impact down the line!

On topic: Mace wanted his grandson on the Iron Throne and Renly needed Tyrell swords to take the throne. I think Renly did the deed and the fact that Margaery and Loras shared a strong resemblance probably made it less of a problem for him than we are making out.

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snip

Renly had a large army and guaranteed loyalty from the Tyrells and his bannermen, and I think that is what everyone focused on. Renly could have simply just lied about the bedding being performed, and there would be none of the problems you mentioned.

Plus, Cersei noted that Margaery and Loras look more alike than her and Jaime, so maybe it was Loras in Renly's bed which explains the erection.

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The reason he would have done it, enjoyment or not, is the same reason they would have said he didn't after he died. It is VERY important for the bedding. Tyrells murdered King Jeffery at his own wedding, you think they're above lying about Renly being able to perform? Renly might be gay but he's not stupid.

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The reason he would have done it, enjoyment or not, is the same reason they would have said he didn't after he died. It is VERY important for the bedding. Tyrells murdered King Jeffery at his own wedding, you think they're above lying about Renly being able to perform? Renly might be gay but he's not stupid.

Renly isn't stupid, but he's not exactly what I would call really "smart" either. He likes books if they have a lot of pictures in them, and he is a bit arrogant.

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I find anyone saying that Renly didn't do it just because he was gay to be simply delusional on this front.

Renly was setting himself up as a KING. Kings need heirs and he specifically allied the Reach with the Stormlands to support his claim by marrying Margaery. He established Loras as the commander of his Rainbow Guard, so his lover would be close, but the entire foundation of the Southern alliance was his marriage.

There is no way that he didn't follow through on it. None. And on top of that, he'd been married for how long? A month? Two? Before he rode to his death at Storm's End. There is simply no conceivable way in my mind that Renly didn't do the deed with her and honestly I don't doubt that the wedding/bedding wasn't the only time.

A man building an army to crown himself king doesn't make the rookie mistake of not nailing his queen and leaving his alliance uncemented.

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I don't see how anyone is 100% certain either way as it isn't stated if they did or didn't in the book.

Gay men have sex with women. There are men who have been married to women for years and had kids....the whole shebang and then they come out later in life.

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Yes but Renly was already known as gay, almost certainly to the Tyrells and definately to his wife, she could have said any manor of things along the lines of, we can wait if you want etc. There really is no way of knowing.

But, as I said above, the Tyrells had nothing to gain from lying about Marg's virginity, the Lannister-Tyrell marriage would still have gone ahead because the Lannister's needed it, in peace times she'd have had to wait, but in times of war they'd just give her tansy just in case and then marry her to Joffrey regardless.

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