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Margaery: Was Renly There First?


Heir to His House

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On topic: Mace wanted his grandson on the Iron Throne and Renly needed Tyrell swords to take the throne. I think Renly did the deed and the fact that Margaery and Loras shared a strong resemblance probably made it less of a problem for him than we are making out.

This is a weird argument to me. My boyfriend's sister looks a lot like him, that wouldn't make it any easier for me if I had to have sex with her. Actually, I think it makes it much more squicky.

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Yes but Renly was already known as gay, almost certainly to the Tyrells and definately to his wife, she could have said any manor of things along the lines of, we can wait if you want etc. There really is no way of knowing.

But, as I said above, the Tyrells had nothing to gain from lying about Marg's virginity, the Lannister-Tyrell marriage would still have gone ahead because the Lannister's needed it, in peace times she'd have had to wait, but in times of war they'd just give her tansy just in case and then marry her to Joffrey regardless.

If they knew he was gay there is like 10x more reason for them to want to ensure a quick consummation to ensure she would be the legitimate queen. If they knew he was gay they would not have taken it for granted he'd have bedded his wife.

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Off topic but the story about how he died has to be one of the more outrageous things I have ever heard.

Thankfully, the red-hot poker story isn't true. If you wanted to kill someone privately without leaving a mark, the last thing you'd do is to choose a method that would have them screaming so loudly that everyone in the castle could hear them, and then have them spending days dying from peritonitis.

Unfortunately, the method of exectuion of Edward's hated chief minister, and probable lover, Hugh Le Despenser the Younger, is all too well documented; half-hanging; removal of private parts, and slow disembowelment in front of a cheering crowd in Hereford. Queen Isabella feasted with her supporters as she watched this taking place.

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How? Have you considered Renly's sexual orientation? There is also the fact that he didn't know he was going to die soon with the largest army in Westeros at his back.

Sexuality can be quite fluid. The fact that Renly has a long-standing affair with Loras wouldn't necessarily mean he couldn't enjoy sex with Margaery. Even if he didn't, he'd recognise it as a necessity.

The upper classes in medieval times had little privacy. Servants slept in their bedrooms, and were coming in and out all the time. Failure to consummate a marriage would rapidly become common knowledge.

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Renly had a large army and guaranteed loyalty from the Tyrells and his bannermen, and I think that is what everyone focused on. Renly could have simply just lied about the bedding being performed, and there would be none of the problems you mentioned.

Plus, Cersei noted that Margaery and Loras look more alike than her and Jaime, so maybe it was Loras in Renly's bed which explains the erection.

That's a big assumption to make. Renly has the guaranteed loyalty of the Tyrells? No. Renly and Loras are lovers but Mace supports Renly because he wants his grandson on the Iron Throne. The bedding and the heir are absolutely crucial: without the common heir a marriage contract or alliance can easily be undone (Barratheon and Stark, Barratheon and Tyrell). The Tyrells end up with the Lannisters easily and soon enough because Mace is very clear and determined on what he wants. Renly knows his throne relies on the Tyrells and on that heir.

Renly can't really lie about this any more than Tyrion can and you can't squash rumours. He would be unwise to risk his relations with his powerful allies by offending them, dishonouring his new bride and outright lying about marital relations.

There is no benefit to him in doing these things, just high risks of a bad outcome.

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This is a weird argument to me. My boyfriend's sister looks a lot like him, that wouldn't make it any easier for me if I had to have sex with her. Actually, I think it makes it much more squicky.

Then your boyfriend's sister need not worry!!

I am suggesting that based on similarity he might find her more appealing or, more accurately, less objectionable than any other woman. Not that he would have the hots for her as he does for Loras and launch into wild threesomes with the pair of them!

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Margaery wasn't an idiot or one that would be easily blind/fooled. Afterall, she clued into Cersei fairly quickly and easily, and knew how to work her position as future Queen. She very well likely knew that her brother was not like the other men in terms of sexuality. I mean, they were suppose to be very close. If he didn't tell her directly then she would at least have a feeling. There could also be a chance that Marge knew about their romance in itself.

So, I'm sure she was probably in on it with Renly. The two of them probably made some sort of agreement behind closed doors, while playing an outwardly charade as the doting husband and wife. They are both cunning kind of people, witty with a knack for the upkeeping of appearance, I can totally see it.

In regards to whether they had done the deed or not, most likely not. Again, Margie and Renly knew ahead of time and probably chose within themselves not to do anything yet, and wait until a tad later when they wanted to or could (Or who knows, maybe they would just secretly adopt some male kid. Renly seemed confident that he was going to get a heir, nothing more secure than getting a ready made child out of choosing while the queen fakes the pregnancy or hides away for a little while. A war going about...plenty of baby orphans out there...or many unwanted pregnancies from prostitutes. Or perhaps there would have been a medieval style invitro - Renly provides the little soldiers and Margie just has it inserted. Ok, perhaps a bit out there but who knows :dunno: either way I sense they had some sort of plan out there.)

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So, I'm sure she was probably in on it with Renly. The two of them probably made some sort of agreement behind closed doors, while playing an outwardly charade as the doting husband and wife. They are both cunning kind of people, witty with a knack for the upkeeping of appearance, I can totally see it.

In regards to whether they had done the deed or not, most likely not. Again, Margie and Renly knew ahead of time and probably chose within themselves not to do anything yet, and wait until a tad later when they wanted to or could (Or who knows, maybe they would just secretly adopt some male kid. Renly seemed confident that he was going to get a heir, nothing more secure than getting a ready made child out of choosing while the queen fakes the pregnancy or hides away for a little while. A war going about...plenty of baby orphans out there...or many unwanted pregnancies from prostitutes. Or perhaps there would have been a medieval style invitro - Renly provides the little soldiers and Margie just has it inserted. Ok, perhaps a bit out there but who knows :dunno: either way I sense they had some sort of plan out there.)

I think she is well aware of his preferences. I don't see why she would avoid getting pregnant - it is after all the one thing that is expected of a queen and the only thing that will put a Tyrell descendent on the throne. If the marriage isn't comsummated it can be set aside so again I don't see why she would risk Renly heading off to battle without attempting to consumate and conceive.

I think the idea of adoption is implausible as is that of faking a pregnancy and / or smuggling a child in. Any suggestion that the heir to the throne is illegitimate can destabilisse the regime and make the succession contested or bloody as Joffey proves very neatly. Or it can have other dire consequences: Edward V / The Princes in The Tower springs to mind.

Above all I believe readers are putting modern sensibilities on the situation and projecting that as Renly is gay this must be the defining feature of his personality and guide his actions regarding his sexuality. I would argue that in a dynastic age he is just as interested in seeing his House in power and his own blood heir on the throne as any of the other great lords. He'll walk a different path for pleasure but he'll walk the same path as the others for politics and power: kingship, dynastic succession and the marriage alliance all demand an heir.

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  • 11 months later...

One, there's plenty RL gay fathers with biological children. Two, Renly declared that he'd have a heir within a year, and it was absolutely crucial that his son should have coal-black hair, considering the shit hurricane that happened because Joffrey didn't, so Renly wouldn't dare to have another man do the deed.

He could have had Edric do it for him :lol:.

On a serious note, I don't think it makes that much sense that he never bed her. He would definitely have consummated the marriage, even if he didn't do it again after, as a consummation is vital for the marriage contract to be considered binding.

It doesn't make much sense that he physically couldn't do it. Most men will get erect at any physical stimulation, and he can always picture loras if it helps. There are plenty of gay men in RL that have had sex with women without too much issue, and on a similar note, plenty of straight men who have had sex (usually forced) with other men.

I agree that he may have waited till after the war before working to produce an heir, but I don't see any way in which he would not have nailed her.

Renly isn't stupid, but he's not exactly what I would call really "smart" either. He likes books if they have a lot of pictures in them, and he is a bit arrogant.

Only if the pictures make septons go blind.
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Pycelle didn't lie, I think Margaery did request moon tea for menstrual cramps and such.

Renly didn't consummate his relationship with Margaery, that much I am certain.

My thoughts were close to this, too. If there is truth to the moon tea, I do think it would have been for another of the ladies that Marg wanted it for.............or perhaps the mentrual cramps, as you suggest. Although, part of me does think that the whole thing is BS as I can't see it being Pycelle that they, or Marg herself, would trust. Maybe they would trust Pycelle if it was for cramps, but my suspicion always was that the tea was meant for one of the other girls.

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That's a big assumption to make. Renly has the guaranteed loyalty of the Tyrells? No. Renly and Loras are lovers but Mace supports Renly because he wants his grandson on the Iron Throne. The bedding and the heir are absolutely crucial: without the common heir a marriage contract or alliance can easily be undone (Barratheon and Stark, Barratheon and Tyrell).

Renly knew Mace wasn't going to expect a child for at least a year given the human gestation period. At the time, since Joffrey was still betrothed to Sansa, and Stannis married, Renly was the only claimant to the IT who was available for Margaery. Besides, Renly was arrogant and certain of his victory.

The Tyrells end up with the Lannisters easily and soon enough because Mace is very clear and determined on what he wants.

But that was after Renly died.

Renly can't really lie about this any more than Tyrion can and you can't squash rumours. He would be unwise to risk his relations with his powerful allies by offending them, dishonouring his new bride and outright lying about marital relations.

There is no benefit to him in doing these things, just high risks of a bad outcome.

This is Renly we are talking about, who has not been known to be what one would call wise. If he didn't lie he could have likely said he had too much wine, and found himself unable to perform.

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I realize this thread is old. But to those saying that the Tyrells had an interest in, and maybe even taken steps to, delaying Renly and Margaery consummating then why did they have Margaery marry Renly instead of simply having them betrothed?

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Pycelle didn't lie, I think Margaery did request moon tea for menstrual cramps and such.

Renly didn't consummate his relationship with Margaery, that much I am certain.

Pycelle himself admitted that he lied about the moon tea.

I realize this thread is old. But to those saying that the Tyrells had an interest in, and maybe even taken steps to, delaying Renly and Margaery consummating then why did they have Margaery marry Renly instead of simply having them betrothed?

Because they wanted the IT. As soon as Renly "won" Marg would be queen and they'd be even more powerful. I don't think it's far fetched to think that Renly would put off the consummation of the marriage. And once they are behind closed doors nobody can say for sure what truly happens in the King's chambers. Renly is the type of guy who'd think he could easily defeat his brother, gather their remaining men behind him and wit the aide of the King of the North, crush the Lannisters and take the throne. I'm sure he figured he'd have plenty of time to make an heir,

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