References and Homages

[Jonathan]

Jaime and Cersei - Luke and Leia

-Both twin brother and sister

-Mothers both died by child birth

-Both showed attraction to each other (Even though Luke knew incest was a big no-no)

-''Help me Jaime Lannister, your my only hope''

-One is royalty the other took holy oath not to marry or love and whatnot

-Jaime lost his hand

-Etc... Edited March 24, 2008 by Jonathan

[alguien]

I've always thought that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen shared traits in common with the Wiggin siblings Peter, Valentine, and Ender, as depicted in Ender's Game. (not the sequels)

The oldest is a boy who is insane and cruel. The middle is a girl who is strong and compassionate. The youngest is compassionate and was tormented by his older brother. Both Joff and Peter disected animals.

Not an exact correllary mind you, but close.

Also, I always pictured the Wiggins as blonds.

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

Just kind of funny is the Fact the bronn took the surname of Blackwater. Blackwater have become famous as a Mercany group now

[Cuchulain]

This may be just me, but when I hear Valyrian steel, I'm always reminded of Hyperborean steel.

[Neurosis]

I can't think of a better place to post this. I'm wondering if there are any parallels between the great knights in ASoIaF and real life great knights. I specifically recall one knight who was supposed to be the greatest knight of all time (or something to taht nature), Sir William something, or something of that nature. An English knight, that is.

Can anyone recall? I would not be surprised if there is some reference to this man or a character based very closely on him. I know, that's not much to go off, but he is quite famous and held in high regard in an area which commonly crops up in this series. Given GRRM's propensity for basing the series off of history, I find it quite likely he makes an appearance in some form. Edited May 25, 2008 by Neurosis

[semiramis]

Interesting that someone noticed the Blackwater parallel. Another interesting thing I noticed is that Blackwater was founded by an Erik /Prince/, who used to be in the US Armed Forces. Shades of Bittersteel?

Also, the Blackwater spokeswoman is named Anne Tyrrell.

I actually thought that the monks of the Quiet Isle might have been based on the convent at Glastonbury Tor in the Mists of Avalon book. That island is also reached by a treacherous route through mudflats, and getting there requires a guide. Though the Hermit's hold reminds me of two things--the description of Bag End, and Cavern Hole, the place at Redwall Abbey where all the woodland creatures gather to feast.

[semiramis]

Oh. And of course, the most obvious one of all--

Aemon the Dragonknight championing Queen Naerys against the slanders of the evil Sir Morgil=Lancelot championing Guinevere against the slanders of the evil Sir Mordred.

I would also like to note that in The Mists of Avalon, the sword Excalibur is forged from the metal of a falling star.

Of course, Dawn looks a heck of a lot more like Eirias (alive and shimmering like crystal), and oh, blood and bloody ashes, it bears a certain resemblance to Callandor as well.

Also, while I'm on a Jordan kick, the arms for House Toland of Ghost Hill is a serpent eating it's own tail, and the serpent is Time.

Arys Oakheart's mother's name is Arwyn.

Real-life stuff

When I heard about a drear fortress off the coast of a sunny kingdom used as a prison, I initially thought "Alcatraz"

Nymeria and her thousand ships are sort of similar to Grace O'Malley, the Irish Pirate Queen.

The Unsullied, being slave soldiers and fearless infantry, are very like the Mamelukes. In fact, I think that they actually had a confrontation with the Mongols that was like the Three Thousand at Qohor at some point, but I'll have to look it up.

[A wilding]

[quote name='semiramis' post='1370716' date='May 26 2008, 04.43']Also, while I'm on a Jordan kick, the arms for House Toland of Ghost Hill is a serpent eating it's own tail, and the serpent is Time.[/quote]
The Tolland family of English nobles play a substantial part in [i]A Dance To The Music Of Time[/i], a series of novels written about 50 years ago by Anthony Powell. One of the major themes of this series is the cyclical nature of time, which has been represented as a dragon eating its own tail as far back as the Ancient Greeks, certainly long before Robert Jordan.

But I am not sure that this is a deliberate reference on GRRM's part. There is so much in ASoIaF that some things may well be simple coincidence.

[Artanaro]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1371071' date='May 26 2008, 11.46']But I am not sure that this is a deliberate reference on GRRM's part. There is so much in ASoIaF that some things may well be simple coincidence.[/quote]

My rule of thumb for allusions/inspiration is there must either be a) a proper noun used in both works (Ruth Dorne from Savage Night is a good exampe, or Manderly from Rebecca) or b) have multiple (more than 4) plot/scene coincidences, such as with Nightmare Alley or Lonesome Dove (Lonesome Dove has over 20).

Artanaro

[Shewoman]

Black Talon, Castle Rock is the New England town in which a number of Stephen King's books are set.

[Shewoman]

Neurosis, I think you're thinking of Sir William Marshall. Ser Arthur Dayne might owe something to him.

Someone suggested that Margaery's situation at the end of FFC resembles Anne Boleyn's. Anne was accused of witchcraft, incest with her brother George (whose wife gave evidence against them), and adultery with one of her musicians (Mark Smeaton) and four other male courtiers.

Cersei is suspicious of a connection between Margaery and a male musician, and while I haven't seen any reason to think the Tyrell siblings are incestuous, they are quite close. Margaery has been examined and found not to be a virgin--not the same as Anne's problem, but it could lead to trouble.

Margaery's situation reminds me more of Katherine Howard's, Henry VIII's fifth wife (and a cousin of Anne Boleyn's). Katherine, who was, I believe, 16 when she was executed, took as a lover one of her husband's favorite grooms of the chamber, and there was a general impression that she allowed men in the Queen's rooms at inappropriate times. Sounds a bit like the whole Margaery/Pycelle/Moon Tea thing.

[Dornish]

Probably specious, but anyone else notice in AGOT the [i]second[/i] Ranger's name is Rykker? I'm not aware of anything else that could be considered a Trek reference, but the name correlated with the post of second in command made me think TNG.

[SkyPirate]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1387429' date='Jun 7 2008, 06.09']Neurosis, I think you're thinking of Sir William Marshall. Ser Arthur Dayne might owe something to him.

Someone suggested that Margaery's situation at the end of FFC resembles Anne Boleyn's. Anne was accused of witchcraft, incest with her brother George (whose wife gave evidence against them), and adultery with one of her musicians (Mark Smeaton) and four other male courtiers.

Cersei is suspicious of a connection between Margaery and a male musician, and while I haven't seen any reason to think the Tyrell siblings are incestuous, they are quite close. Margaery has been examined and found not to be a virgin--not the same as Anne's problem, but it could lead to trouble.

Margaery's situation reminds me more of Katherine Howard's, Henry VIII's fifth wife (and a cousin of Anne Boleyn's). Katherine, who was, I believe, 16 when she was executed, took as a lover one of her husband's favorite grooms of the chamber, and there was a general impression that she allowed men in the Queen's rooms at inappropriate times. Sounds a bit like the whole Margaery/Pycelle/Moon Tea thing.[/quote]

Margaery's personality is more reminiscent of Anne than of Catherine H., though (and she's smart, while Catherine H comes across as a giggling airhead). And Cersei did think of Margaery/Loras as slander, but decided that nobody who knew Loras would believe it. And he was much too populair:

[quote]By dawn the singer’s high blue boots were full of blood, and he had told them how Margaery would fondle herself as she watched her cousins pleasuring him with their mouths. At other times he would sing for her whilst she sated her lusts with other lovers. “Who were they?” the queen demanded, and the wretched Wat named Ser Tallad the Tall, Lambert Turnberry, Jalabhar Xho, the Redwyne twins, Osney Kettleblack, Hugh Clifton, and the Knight of Flowers.

[b]That displeased her. She dare not besmirch the name of the hero of Dragonstone. Besides, no one who knew Ser Loras would ever believe it. [/b]The Redwynes could not be a part of it either. Without the Arbor and its fleet, the realm could never hope to rid itself of this Euron Crow’s Eye and his accursed ironmen. “All you are doing is spitting up the names of men you saw about her chambers. We want the truth!”[/quote]

Lann the Trickster reminded me of Loki of the Norse pantheon.

[Ouroboros]

Really? Lann reminded me more of Anansi or Coyote then Loki, but then again those names don't really parallel one another as well as Lann/Loki.

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

[quote name='Ouroboros' post='1419310' date='Jun 28 2008, 06.35']Really? Lann reminded me more of Anansi or Coyote then Loki, but then again those names don't really parallel one another as well as Lann/Loki.[/quote]
Tickester are universal but yes Lann is much more of that repected Tickester

[DocBean]

I ran a search and didn't see this one in there yet.

Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning who weilds Dawn

is very similar to Robert Jordan's main character in his Wheel of Time Series,
Rand Al'Thor, the Lord of the Morning, Prince of Dawn

[the silent speaker]

Although since Rand himself is a pastiche of King Arthur among others, I'm inclined to see that as more of a counsinly relationship.

[Gabriele]

[quote name='Arakano' post='1109223' date='Nov 17 2007, 00.57']I would not say that Tywin Lannister is based on Arthur, though. ;)

He is based on Edward I. "Longshanks" of England: A cunning, cold, ruthless, yet charismatic and efficient ruler, who was forced to mature early because of his weak father, who was occasionaly bossed around by his own nobles - something Edward ended by crushing the mightiest of said nobles when he was barely an adult. He later conquered Wales and led many wars against the Scots (yes, Braveheart, that's him), with some success and some losses, until he finally dies and his son is defeated by Robert (!) Bruce, who due to his noble ancestry and his victories in the field is made king of Scotland. His wife, whom he dearly loved, died before him, which left him grieving (although I should add they had more than 3 children - 16, in fact, but even Martin has limits on his numbres of characters... :D) Oh, and Edward later married a french princess, as did his son, thus allying himself with France.
If we accept the rough nation-house-equations (with Westerlands=England, North=Scotland, Reach=France), as I agree we should, than the similarities are more than obvious. I believe that Martin even admitted the inspiration somewhere. And I am also sure that someone already posted it, so I don't claim any laurels... :D[/quote]

If he sticks with the parallel for the next generation, we should get some Jaime/Loras action. :D

[SkyPirate]

[quote name='Gabriele' post='1429544' date='Jul 6 2008, 23.59']If he sticks with the parallel for the next generation, we should get some Jaime/Loras action. :D[/quote]
I like the way you're thinking. :D

[DocBean]

In Feast for Crowns Arianne explains to Arys Oakheart that:

House Toland of Ghost Hill's Sigil is a Dragon biting it's own tail.
The dragon is time; it has no beginning, no ending.

Could be another reference to The Wheel of Time.
Aeis Sedai wear a ring with a snake biting it's own tail, that signifies Time without end.