References and Homages

[evita mgfs]

Interesting about Gared, is it such an unusual name in english? In any case, I think there is no doubt that Poe has influenced Martin. Something I posted with regard to Septa Lemore (inspired by a poster's type-o "Septa Lenore")

Regarding Mormont's Raven, I'd like to think that some of the inspiration for it came from Maurice Sendak's beautiful illustration of the nursery rhyme "Hector Protector".

LYKOS:

:bowdown: THANKS FOR RESPONDING! Regarding the spelling of "Gared", nowadays, so many spellings are adapted from other names and nationalities, so I think my argument was weak. I am not the type who puzzles over names, but when I was annotating the "Prologue", Martin's choice of "Will" was so darn direct and deliberate, I figured Gared's name had some significance as well. Dividing it into syllables made it all clear. Awesome connection: "Das Leonoren Motiv".

Martin may have read Poe's novel Arthur Gordon Pym, an "adventure" story about cannibalism at sea - the survivors draw straws to select their sacrificial "lamb". This scene reminds me of Stannis issuing judgment on several of his men who were so hungry, they ate from a corpse.

I anticipate more POE-TWISTS, especially with an army of the dead at hand. Oh, Bran's cave full of skulls resembles the catacombs of the Montresor's in "The Cask of Amontillado"., where Montresor entombs his unfortunate friend Fortunato because of an insult the author never reveals. Now, the Poe trick of never revealing what his readers desperately want to know sounds like Martin to me!

Actually, the walking dead reminds me of Odysseus visiting the Land of the Dead in Homer's Odyssey in order to speak with the dead, blind prophet Tiresias. The rows of dead were endless and deep, and heroic Odysseus is afraid, but he makes an animal sacrifice and holds back the horde to allow Tiresias the first sip of hot blood. The dead cannot speak until they drink the hot blood of an animal sacrifice. The "blood" may play a similar role in the future.

I just had an idea, but I need to take time to write it out and find textual evidence. Thanks again!

[Roward Flowers]

I haven't read all 81 pages of this topic yet, but it seems mostly focused on literary homages. Is there a specific forum to talk about historical/ real world parallels? (e.g. black dinner= red wedding; Lancasters/Yorks = Lannisters/Starks; Unsullied training = Spartan agoge)

[Lykos]

Welcome to the board, Roward Flowers.

This thread is also used for historical references, but it's not really meant to discuss them, you just dump your finding into this Ginnungagap.

Apart from the training of the Unsullied, who are usually compared the Jannissaries, all your examples have been mentioned. Actually, I think the Spartan agoge is the polar opposite to the Unsullied training apart for the endurance of hardships. The Spartans were trained to care about their people, the Unsullied were trained to care about nothing, but to follow the orders of their masters.

To find a thread for discussions use google search. For example < war of the roses site westeros asoiaf forums site:asoiaf.westeros.org > (most recent result) or < lancaster york site westeros asoiaf forums site:asoiaf.westeros.org > (most recent result).

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Chett is our hero of the A Storm of Swords prologue.

There's the "pussymonger" in From Dusk till Dawn who cannot finish a sentence without advertising pussy at least once. I just read he's called "Chet".

Until this I had filed Chett as just another alternate spelling for shaite.

[HexMachina]

Chett is our hero of the A Storm of Swords prologue.

There's the "pussymonger" in From Dusk till Dawn who cannot finish a sentence without advertising pussy at least once. I just read he's called "Chet".

Until this I had filed Chett as just another alternate spelling for shaite.

I always pronounced Chett like the Shett in Shettland

[Lost Melnibonean]

I haven't read all 81 pages of this topic yet, but it seems mostly focused on literary homages. Is there a specific forum to talk about historical/ real world parallels? (e.g. black dinner= red wedding; Lancasters/Yorks = Lannisters/Starks; Unsullied training = Spartan agoge)

The Wow, I never noticed that threads are good for that kind of thing too.

[Roward Flowers]

Thanks Lykos, I reread the OP and noticed that it's more for adding them. I've only read the main series once through, so I'm not trying to add anything yet. I've just become a member to see what more I can catch while I go through the novels again (and again). Also, thanks for noting the Janissaries. Clearly, I'm looking for a subforum that would point out more things like that.

Lost Melnibonean, thank you! I'll check those threads out right away.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Roward Flowers

[evita mgfs]

“A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse!”

In Shakespeare’s Richard III, he loves his horse “Barbary”, a name that is reminiscent of Lady Barbery Dustin, whose sigil is a horse. Her husband’s horse was returned by Ned Stark after the Tower of Joy.

From the play:

When Bolingbroke rode on roan Barbary,
That horse that thou so often hast bestrid,
That horse that I so carefully have dress'd!

KING RICHARD II

Rode he on Barbary? Tell me, gentle friend,
How went he under him?

Groom

So proudly as if he disdain'd the ground.

KING RICHARD II

So proud that Bolingbroke was on his back!
That jade hath eat bread from my royal hand;
This hand hath made him proud with clapping him.
Would he not stumble? would he not fall down,
Since pride must have a fall, and break the neck
Of that proud man that did usurp his back?
Forgiveness, horse! why do I rail on thee,
Since thou, created to be awed by man,
Wast born to bear? I was not made a horse;
And yet I bear a burthen like an ass,
Spurr'd, gall'd and tired by jouncing Bolingbroke.

[Perfidious Algernon]

We're doing historical references here too, yes? These keep popping up as I listen to Hardcore History. The two latest:

The Cimbri front ranks would chain themselves to one another in order to keep people from fleeing and keep their front unified in their wars against the Romans.

Crassus lined the road from Rome to Capua with 6,000 crucified slaves in the aftermath of the Third Servile War.

There will very likely be more soon.

[Lost Melnibonean]

We're doing historical references here too, yes? These keep popping up as I listen to Hardcore History. The two latest:

The Cimbri front ranks would chain themselves to one another in order to keep people from fleeing and keep their front unified in their wars against the Romans.

Crassus lined the road from Rome to Capua with 6,000 crucified slaves in the aftermath of the Third Servile War.

There will very likely be more soon.

Looking forward to it.

[Taenqyrhae]

Interesting possible historical reference, at least some similar names connected in interesting ways.

I saw that there was a Queen Melisende of Jerusalem, so I skimmed her Wikipedia article to see if there were any similarities to Melisandre. Other than being a powerful woman who was able to manipulate men to do her bidding, there wasn't much…except her son ended up marrying Agnes of Courtenay. Which is very similar to the name of a person one of Melisandre's "sons" encountered, though not to marry.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Carly Carleesi

[Perfidious Algernon]

The similarities between an Ironborn kingsmoot and a Mongol kurultai are pretty striking:

Kurultai is a generic term for a meeting, but it was applied to a meeting between all the great houses at which the next Khan would be elected.

A kurultai held to elect a Khan is only valid if 1) every great house is in attendance and 2) it is held in Mongolia.

Batu Khan delayed the appointment of Guyuk Khan for years by pretending to be too sick to attend.

Mongke Khan's first election was challenged and invalidated, partially because few of the great houses were present but mostly because it wasn't held in Mongolia.

Edit: Oh! And Mongke Khan's second election ended in a bunch of his family members trying to slaughter everyone while they were drunk at the celebration with an army of their own, after of course pretending to be loyal subjects who had come to pay homage. Not sure if that's a Red Wedding connection, foreshadowing for an Ironborn civil war, or me blowing smoke.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Perfidious Algernon

[evita mgfs]

Oh darn! My history is poor! I know Shakespeare's histories?

[Perfidious Algernon]

Oh darn! My history is poor! I know Shakespeare's histories?

Mine isn't nearly as good as it probably looks right now, I'm just binge-listening an awesome podcast. You too can fake knowledge you don't have!

[evita mgfs]

Mine isn't nearly as good as it probably looks right now, I'm just binge-listening an awesome podcast. You too can fake knowledge you don't have!

I'll try, and I know Plutarch is more fiction than fact, but here goes:

From Julius Caesar, on the eve of the Ides of March, based on Plutarch’s Lives of the Noble Greeks and Romans, Shakespeare’s source:

And graves have yawn'd, and yielded up their dead;

Sounds like wights to me.

[Perfidious Algernon]

And graves have yawn'd, and yielded up their dead;

Sounds like wights to me.

Which, if I'm remembering Shakespeare right, happened shortly before Jon Sno-, I mean Julius Caesar, was stabbed to death by a bunch of colleagues. You're better at bullshit than you thought.

[evita mgfs]

Which, if I'm remembering Shakespeare right, happened shortly before Jon Sno-, I mean Julius Caesar, was stabbed to death by a bunch of colleagues. You're better at bullshit than you thought.

Har! Help me with these from Caesar, more nastiness before Julius' pals butchered him!

Fierce fiery warriors fought upon the clouds, Fire Eater said the Trial by Combat at the Eyrie.

In ranks and squadrons and right form of war,

Which drizzled blood upon the Capitol; ?

The noise of battle hurtled in the air, ?

Horses did neigh, and dying men did groan, - When Ned is attacked by Jaime in King's Landing

And ghosts did shriek and squeal about the streets. ?? Ghost howls in Jon's wolf dream. Ghost are all about WF, according to Theon.

[Perfidious Algernon]

Har! Help me with these from Caesar, more nastiness before Julius' pals butchered him!

Fierce fiery warriors fought upon the clouds, Fire Eater said the Trial by Combat at the Eyrie.

In ranks and squadrons and right form of war,

Which drizzled blood upon the Capitol; ?

The noise of battle hurtled in the air, ?

Horses did neigh, and dying men did groan, - When Ned is attacked by Jaime in King's Landing

And ghosts did shriek and squeal about the streets. ?? Ghost howls in Jon's wolf dream. Ghost are all about WF, according to Theon.

Obviously my friend, this is all referenced in the Battle of the Blackwater:

Fierce fiery warriors = Stannis' men fighting under the burning heart

Fought upon the clouds = They fight on the bridge of boats surrounded by smoke, and emerge from the smoke of their ruined fleet to land at the gates of KL

Ranks & squadrons drizzing blood on the Capitol = They launch a coordinated, professional assault on KL

Noise of battle/horses & dying men = THERE WAS A FIREFIGHT!

Ghosts did shriek about the streets = Loras in Renly's armor, ending the battle

Psh, gimme somethin hard!

[evita mgfs]

Obviously my friend, this is all referenced in the Battle of the Blackwater:

Fierce fiery warriors = Stannis' men fighting under the burning heart

Fought upon the clouds = They fight on the bridge of boats surrounded by smoke, and emerge from the smoke of their ruined fleet to land at the gates of KL

Ranks & squadrons drizzing blood on the Capitol = They launch a coordinated, professional assault on KL

Noise of battle/horses & dying men = THERE WAS A FIREFIGHT!

Ghosts did shriek about the streets = Loras in Renly's armor, ending the battle

Psh, gimme somethin hard!

AWESOME!

I have more for your oh so brilliant mind:

The Priests also perform a sacrifice, and the beast is without a heart!

A lioness hath whelped in the streets;

An owl hoots noon day in the Capital

CASCA

A common slave--you know him well by sight--

Held up his left hand, which did flame and burn

Like twenty torches join'd, and yet his hand,

Not sensible of fire, remain'd unscorch'd.

Besides--I ha' not since put up my sword--

Against the Capitol I met a lion,

Who glared upon me, and went surly by,

Without annoying me:

and there were drawn

Upon a heap a hundred ghastly women,

Transformed with their fear; who swore they saw

Men all in fire walk up and down the streets.

And yesterday the bird of night did sit

Even at noon-day upon the market-place,

Hooting and shrieking.

I apologize I posted in color. I was slammed in another thread for doing so. I sincerely meant no offense by using color.

[evita mgfs]

The beast without a heart could be the horse sacrificed so that Dany could eat his heart?