References and Homages

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

Doesn't rule out GRRM knowing them

As I said, given the inspiration for Reek and Ramsay I'm not ruling out anything from now on in regards to his "inspirations"

[TheLastWolf]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As I said, given the inspiration for Reek and Ramsay I'm not ruling out anything from now on in regards to his "inspirations"

I got it. Just for others who might pass by this thread. Making it crystal. Clear. Good thing you aren't ruling out anything from now BTW. 

[CamiloRP]

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Doesn't rule out GRRM knowing them

I think it's a very small coincidence at most tho. The giant that can only say a few words is a trope by now.

 

Same problem with this:

Quote

Harvey Dent —Sandor Clegane

THE JOKER - Smiling Knight

Batman /Bruce Wayne-Eddard

Scarecrow /what's his name - Jaime

Ra'as AL ghul - Bloodraven..... Kinda 

Shiera/Quaithe - Miranda/Talia

Lucius Fox - Howland Reed 

Gordon - Umber/Flint/Norrey/? 

Robin - Jon/Benjen

. 

. 

. Oh! Forgot - Master Luwin as Alfred 

Any more?? 

There are many characters with half burned faces throughout pop culture, and Sandor doesn't have, that I'm aware, any other resemblance to Two Face.

The Smiling Knight-Joker thing is good, IMHO

But then the rest... I find little to no connection buddy

[TheLastWolf]

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I think it's a very small coincidence at most tho. The giant that can only say a few words is a trope by now.

 

Same problem with this:

There are many characters with half burned faces throughout pop culture, and Sandor doesn't have, that I'm aware, any other resemblance to Two Face.

The Smiling Knight-Joker thing is good, IMHO

But then the rest... I find little to no connection buddy

Two face Sandor and Joker Smiling Knight okayish 

The rest has no connection. Just my own personal parallels.

Edited November 11, 2020 by TheLastWolf

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Two face Sandor and Joker Smiling Knight okayish 

The rest has no connection. Just my own personal parallels.

Got it got it.

I think the Smiling Knight is more than okayish, I think it's fair to assume it's on purpose. For Sandor tho, I would need another thing that connects him.

[TheLastWolf]

5 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I would need another thing that connects him

Searching even as I type... 

[zionius]

Lords Bigglestone, Chambers, and Perryn in F&B refer to Clint Bigglestone, Johnny Chambers and Steve Perrin, GRRM's fanzine friends since high school.

[ManBearPig]

Dunno if this has been mentioned before, but the name Westeros influenced by Wester Ross

I can't believe I never noticed this before, especially considering GRRMs extensive reading of Nigel Tranter and British history. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by ManBearPig

[Virgilius]

On 3/12/2021 at 10:21 PM, ManBearPig said:

Dunno if this has been mentioned before, but the name Westeros influenced by Wester Ross

I can't believe I never noticed this before, especially considering GRRMs extensive reading of Nigel Tranter and British history. 

Well, that is something I did not know

[Lady_Qohor]

I'm currently reading 'A Fistfull of Shells' which is on West African history (would really recommend) and came across the name Heinrich Barth. Barth was a 19th century German traveller and scholar.

Immediately I thought this is where Septon Barth comes from but a quick Wikipedia search shows that there are multiple historical Central European intellectuals named Barth.

Does anyone know if Septon Barth is named after anyone in particular or do you think GRRM just thought it was a good name for a Westerosi scholar?

[Blackberry888]

Hello to all fans of the world (Game of Thrones). Found a cool browser game about this universe. A real tribute from the developers. I advise you to try it, it draws you into the game from the first second. Here's the game: Game of Thrones Winter is Coming. Have good game.

[Brianstorm]

How will Tom Brady winning with the Buccaneers without "Belicho" be referenced? Perhaps some general named Tomas Brados from will lead a Summer Island faction to victory against Volantis

[Castellan]

On 11/10/2020 at 10:42 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As I said, given the inspiration for Reek and Ramsay I'm not ruling out anything from now on in regards to his "inspirations"

Can you give a link? Haven't heard this.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

This thread's 16 years old.  He should put some sort of homage to it in Winds.

[Pink Fat Rast]

On 11/10/2020 at 12:36 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 

Thought to be fair as I myself has pointed out, the Reek/Ramsay story is an almost perfect copy of a  pretty obscure Romanian story that to the best of my knowledge has never been published in high quantities in English, so I wouldn't put anything past GRRM to rip off pay homage too

Hm what story is that?

Also, 2 more possible sources for Roose/Ramsay/Reek:

1) Apparently the historical Don Juan, son of a Hidalgo admiral, and courtier to the tyrannical Pedro I. (a guy who imprisoned his wife right after the wedding, until she died in prison), said to have assisted him in some evil deeds and became a subject of horror tales (already during his time?).

 

And in the Mozart opera (apparently the 1st adaptation to do so?), he's going around with a servant (i.e. Leporello), who's partially disgusted and exhausted by his master's ways, but also admires him to some extent and occasionally has fun assisting him - i.e. the disguise bit with Donna Anna Elvira [edit: mistake lol];

while disguised as each other, Leporello gets caught by the vengeful noble gang but is recognized, spared and escapes - while Giovanni runs into the vengeful peasant gang, pretends to be on their side i.e. betraying his master, sends them away to search for him, and then when left alone with their leader Masetto, reveals his identity and beats him up.

And earlier he blames Leporello for his own sexual assault attempt (off-stage during a party) and threatens to publicly punish and kill him - however no one buys it, so he just escapes (with his reputation in shambles - he doesn't care though).

 

With these elements thrown around a bit, the parallels to Book!Ramsay's backstory and introdruction are obvious;

and the original story sounds like Juan might either be the Reek to Pedro's Ramsay, or maybe the Ramsay to his Roose?

 

So yeah maybe ppl here more familiar with the history there (I only know these vague bullet points as of now) can fill some of these gaps.

 

2) From the Narnia series, the whole backstory with Miraz killing his brother for his throne, kind of grooming Prince Caspian (i.e. the killed brother's son) as an heir as long as he has no children of his own, but then as soon as that changes he tries to assassinate him.

So this obv resembles the way Roose keeps Ramsay around, but then *Ramsay* is the one who's expected to kill any legitimate son by Roose (and does so in the show); also Roose did kill Robb and then took his castle and position, although they weren't related or from the same house obviously.

Whether this is a reference, or both just share the same roots (from history or literature) I've no idea though.

 

The show seemingly proceeds to add to this parallel in the BotB - there's an attempt to goad Ramsay into a duel (a successful attempt in Miraz' case), and the droning pre-battle score is similar to the pre-duel score bit from the movie version.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Pink Fat Rast

[Pink Fat Rast]

Hm, having read the OP but only bits of the rest of the thread so far (is it possible to use the search function on a thread btw?) - that Citadel FAQ and its "references" section is obv only a few entries long and, in fact, links back to this thread "for more examples";

so idk the original stated intent was to create a resource where all these examples are organized in some kinda structured fashion - since Citadel decided not to do it, has there been any other attempt to create such a site?

In case not, and if this hasn't been much considered before, I'd suggest TvTropes or its fork AllTheTropes as a possibility;

TvTropes is the one that already has many entries on this subject (the "Shout Out" and "Referenced in" subpages, along with possibly 1-2 others? I forgot atm...), however it has a weird, eccentric, gatekeeping and ill-tempered moderation team centered around narcissistic admin Fighteer - so you might have to put up with that whole bullshit lol.

While AllTheTropes seems easygoing in this department, its GoT pages are years behind, and there are no "References" subpages at all - so sth to be started from scratch there, not that you lack any material for that LOL

 

 

I'm also intending to start adding a bunch of entries there, but here's the thing, a lot of those bits aren't "confirmed" "references" and might even be complete (but still interesting and entertaining) "coincidences" -  so I need to add a new subpage there, and I'm not sure what to call it - does anyone know what the general term is for like "parallels", resemblances etc. that might be anything from intentional, to coincidental, to subconscious, etc.?

"Shout-outs" or "references" obv narrows it down to intentional (as expressed in the OP here as well), while sth like "Parallels and Resemblances" or ", Influences and References" sounds a bit clunky - I'll prob try that if I won't find anything better, but idk if anyone here knows like a common or official term that could be used for that subpage name, that'd be really swell!

Edited August 7, 2021 by Pink Fat Rast

[chrisdaw]

Part of the wiki entry for Deianira. Lots of obvious references.

Quote

 

The central story about Deianira concerns the Shirt of Nessus. A wild centaur named Nessus attempted to kidnap or rape Deianira as he was ferrying her across the river Euenos, but she was rescued by Heracles, who shot the centaur with a poisoned arrow. As he lay dying, Nessus persuaded Deianira to take a sample of his blood, telling her that a potion of it mixed with olive oil would ensure that Heracles would never again be unfaithful.

Deianira believed his words and kept a little of the potion by her. Heracles fathered illegitimate children all across Greece and then fell in love with Iole. When Deianira thus feared that her husband would leave her forever, she smeared some of the blood on Heracles' famous lionskin shirt. Heracles' servant, Lichas, brought him the shirt and he put it on. The centaur's toxic blood burned Heracles terribly, and eventually, he threw himself into a funeral pyre. In despair, Deianira committed suicide by hanging herself or with a sword.

 

Nessus might be where Nissa Nissa comes from.

[Walda]

I have just read The Wall from Kipling's Puck of Pook's Hill (1936). It is a historical fantasy where a couple of children crawl through a hedge to meet Puck, who on this occassion introduces them to a Roman soldier guarding Hadrian's Wall.

I think GRRM must have read it - there is a marked resemblance between this and GRRM'S Wall. Of course, one expects some similarity between stories based on the same location and historical facts, but the similarities that struck me especially were more about characters, especially the development of Jon's character and relationships. (The framing conceit might also have influenced C S Lewis's Narnia.)

This particular story is directly comparable to Jon's arc, especially in Game of Thrones, (say, AGoT Ch.19 Jon III or Ch.26 Jon IV), and Jon's relationship with Tormund, or the position of the Wildlings generally (in Kipling's story the Picts have just observed another enemy landing and would be glad of an alliance, or at least, a cessation of hostilities with the Romans). 

The two boys in Kipling's story go hunting wolves north of the wall with a 'tame' pict. They came to the wall as boys, with Parnesius at first struggling to fit in with the men on the wall, for he was nobly born and they had been sent there as punishment for their crimes.

But then he meets Pertinax, whose father had died, and his wealthy but unkindly uncle had sent him to the Wall by force and trickery. As they become friends, Parnesius learns to how to read, and lead, and respect his cohort.

There has been a mention of Kipling in this thread before, his poem on the unattainable Blue Roses for a dead love.

On 3/22/2013 at 1:58 PM, Jon Flowers said:

I'm not convinced that Martin drew upon it as an influence, but Kipling's "Blue Roses" has a few perhaps coincidental similarities to the whole TOJ storyline.

Well, GRRM hasn't been explicit about the TOJ storyline, so it is hard to tell. 

Also

Quote

On 5/12/2013 at 2:12 PM, El-ahrairah said:

Could just be a coincidence, but when Jon is passing out food to the wildlings in ADWD there's a bit that goes "The tumult and the shoving died", which sounds rather like the line from Rudyard Kipling's "Recessional":

 

The tumult and the shouting dies

The Captains and the Kings depart.

 

[RayRose]

On 3/18/2011 at 5:16 AM, Stakhanov said:

Sorry, a quick quote from right at the start, and sorry if this has been covered already, but I think both of these names are derived from the original Gothic novel The Castle of Otranto by Horace Walpole (1764).

I have no idea how I found this on the 24th page, but I have read "The Castle of Otranto", and it is also fresh in my mind, so yes, these names have their etymology in this novel by Horace Walpole. I even found that it greatly influenced other masterpieces after decades and just some years of publication. Moreover, I read in a book summary on https://freebooksummary.com/category/the-castle-of-otranto more information that it is one of the first editions which launched the implementation of the idea of paternity and its relation to political rule in books and games. So, I see you argued some time ago about the Manfred and Roland names, but I couldn't without getting involved here.

[pozdnyshev]

I was unable to use the search function at the top of the page, so I'm unsure if this has already been mentioned. In Tyrion's chapter describing the skirmish on the High Road in A Game of Thrones, the narrator remarks how it seemed the sun stood still in the sky over the course of the battle:

Quote

He [Tyrion] could have sworn they had been fighting for half a day, but the sun seemed scarcely to have moved at all.

This is an obvious allusion to a famous passage in chapter 10 of Book of Joshua describing the sun's refusal to set until the Israelites took vengeance on their enemies.

Quote

Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel,

“Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon,
and thou Moon in the valley of Ai′jalon.”
 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed,
until the nation took vengeance on their enemies.

Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.