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References and Homages

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When I first read AGoT I thought it to be a more or less direct representation of medieval Britain. Of course I know it isnt a direct representation but there are many similarities. We all know about the geographical similarities and of course the wall and what have you but lately Ive been trying to figure if the 7 houses represented specific ancient powers. Im just a speculating teenager though so dont show me up to bad. I was thinking that: Stark=Scott. Tyrell=French. Martel=Spain. Lannister=English. Greyjoy=Viking. Baratheon=Welsh?. Tully=Also seems nordic. Arryn=German?. Also I thought Targaryen reminded of Rome. Andals and First Men possibly saxons and normans or something. Again this is just teenage speculation who bases all his history off of Sid Meiers ;P. Im sure Im far off here but anyhow thats what Im thinking.

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What about "Darkstar" from Feast? Also the name of a Grateful Dead song. If GRRM is a fan, it is certainly an homage. Or he may of just liked the name, or it could be a coincidence. Does anyone know if George likes the Dead?

don't know. but if you ever read Martin's Armageddon Rag, I think there are some suggestions there EDIT: there's a "dedication". "Rag" was the name of a Robert Hunter song and ASOFI does have Dire Wolves, please don't murder me.

heh: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/..._Twilight_Zone/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=20095

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The end of the last Arya chapter in ACOK has always made me think of Macbeth,

Her fingers were sticky with blood, and the smell was making her mare skittish. It's no matter, she thought, swinging up into the saddle. The rain will wash them clean again.

What do you think, could this be one?

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I couldn't find anyone mentioning this, but I can't belive it hasn't been posted yet. Anyway:

I just read Fevre Dream by GRRM and at one point they try to scare people off the boat with a rumour of yellow fever. They also used a nickname for the illness - Bronze John. It was so feared that no one wanted to be on a boat that carried it.

Obviously the name isn't a coincidence, but perhaps there's more to it than just a name? Yohn Royce could end up taking many lives, I think.

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[quote name='AGOT, Tyrion 7']Tywin son of Tytos of House Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock, Warden of the West, Shield of Lannisport, and [b]once and future Hand of the King[/b][/quote]

There is a book called [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Once_and_Future_King"] the Once and Future King [/url].

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[quote name='Talyn' post='1008301' date='Sep 18 2007, 10.41']The end of the last Arya chapter in ACOK has always made me think of Macbeth,

What do you think, could this be one?[/quote]
Cersei has always reminded me a bit of Lady Macbeth, more in theme than details.

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[quote name='the_dragon_rider' post='1035139' date='Oct 3 2007, 14.18']QUOTE(AGOT, Tyrion 7)
Tywin son of Tytos of House Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock, Warden of the West, Shield of Lannisport, and once and future Hand of the King
There is a book called [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Once_and_Future_King"] the Once and Future King [/url].[/quote]
And that once and future king, Arthur, was also killed by his own son, IIRC. :)

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I would not say that Tywin Lannister is based on Arthur, though. ;)

He is based on Edward I. "Longshanks" of England: A cunning, cold, ruthless, yet charismatic and efficient ruler, who was forced to mature early because of his weak father, who was occasionaly bossed around by his own nobles - something Edward ended by crushing the mightiest of said nobles when he was barely an adult. He later conquered Wales and led many wars against the Scots (yes, Braveheart, that's him), with some success and some losses, until he finally dies and his son is defeated by Robert (!) Bruce, who due to his noble ancestry and his victories in the field is made king of Scotland. His wife, whom he dearly loved, died before him, which left him grieving (although I should add they had more than 3 children - 16, in fact, but even Martin has limits on his numbres of characters... :D) Oh, and Edward later married a french princess, as did his son, thus allying himself with France.
If we accept the rough nation-house-equations (with Westerlands=England, North=Scotland, Reach=France), as I agree we should, than the similarities are more than obvious. I believe that Martin even admitted the inspiration somewhere. And I am also sure that someone already posted it, so I don't claim any laurels... :D

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Some history connections I've discovered:

1) When the Andals came to Westeros, they brought iron with them, which was superior to the bronze weapons of the First Men. This is exactly like the events on Crete in Bronze Age times. Minoans wielded bronze weapons, but were eradicated by the iron-wielding Mycenaens who arrived on the islands. (Mycenaens iirc were basically the Greeks).

2) Much of the conflict of the War of the Usurper is based around the kidnapping of Lyana. This is kinda like the Trojan war, where the war starts because Paris abducts Elena. Edited by PestilencE

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Guest Other-in-law
Someone has probably already noted this, but the [i]Lords Declarant[/i] in the Vale sound rather similar to a few of the 14th century English baronial factions; the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_Appellant"]Lords Appellant[/url] and the[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_Ordainers"] Lords Ordainers[/url].

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Someone earlier mentioned that the Dothraki are the equivalent of the Mongols. I can see the reasoning of that, but more specific details lead me to believe that the Dothraki are the equivalent to a Turkic tribe. Maybe the Avars, Khazars, Bulgars, Tatars, or the like.

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[quote name='Jughead of the Round' date='Nov 16 2005, 00.41' post='16868']
Few things:

"-Arya being close to the name Arha in the Tombs of Atuan. Arha means 'nameless one' which refers to Arya more and more. (Arya also may be going down the path in La Femme Nikita, about a female assassin)"

Ārya (sic) is a word in common use in Persian and Indian languages. "The important Sanskrit lexicon [[Amarakosha|Amarakośa]] (ca. 450 AD) defines ārya thus: "An ārya is one who hails from a noble family, of gentle behavior and demeanor, good-natured and of righteous conduct. (mahākula kulinārya sabhya sajjana sadhavah.)" "

"The word "arya" (in the form āriyā, آریا), in the modern [[Persian language]], also means "noble", "Aryan", or "Iranian" The word is both related to language and ethnicity and is found in various forms of boys' and girls' names. "Aryan" is also commonly used as a boy's name in various Indic languages."

[quote name='The Vinsky' post='54287' date='Dec 12 2005, 05.03']Charles [b]Martel[/b] was the grandfather of Charlemagne, reunited the Franks and added Aquitaine & Burgundy to his realm. He also won the Battle of Tours (732), which halted the Muslims/Moors from advancing from Spain into Frankish territory.[/quote]

The "Martel" in his name is actually his personal nickname. Meaning "the Hammer". Probably because of his reputation for decisive action. The Martells in the novels are prone to indecision rather than action.

[quote name='Arvernian' post='71323' date='Dec 22 2005, 19.11']The more I read the stories the more convinced I begun that Robert Baratheon is a homage to Conan.

Compare the way the two are described: both are tall and dark haired with blue eyes.

Where does the name Robert come from anyway? Is it in fact a nod to Conan's creator Rober E Howard? And come to think of it Baratheon and Barbarian are very similar words.

Both have a fondness for wenching, drinking and eating.

Both took control of a kingdom that was run by a mad king. Both felt somewhat trapped by the responsibilities of the position.
All the same I do believe Selwyn is referred to as the Evenstar of Tarth.[/quote]

Actually while reading Robert's appearances in the "Game of Thrones", I kept comparing him to Conan as depicted in his very first appearance in the "Phoenix on the Sword".

1) By the words of the Cimmerrian himself: "Prospero, these matters of statecraft weary me as all the fighting I have done never did." ... "I wish I might ride with you to Nemedia. It seems ages since I had a horse between my knees — but Publius says that affairs in the city require my presence. Curse him!"

"When I overthrew the old dynasty, it was easy enough, though it seemed bitter hard at the time. Looking back now over the wild path I followed, all those days of toil, intrigue, slaughter and tribulation seem like a dream.

"I did not dream far enough, Prospero. When King Numedides lay dead at my feet and I tore the crown from his gory head and set it on my own, I had reached the ultimate border of my dreams. I had prepared myself to take the crown, not to hold it. In the old free days all I wanted was a sharp sword and a straight path to my enemies. Now no paths are straight and my sword is useless.

"When I overthrew Numedides, then I was the Liberator — now they spit at my shadow. They have put a statue of that swine in the temple of Mitra, and people go and wail before it, hailing it as the holy effigy of a saintly monarch who was done to death by a red-handed barbarian. When I led her armies to victory as a mercenary, Aquilonia overlooked the fact that I was a foreigner, but now she can not forgive me.

"Now in Mitra's temple there come to burn incense to Numedides' memory, men whom his hangmen maimed and blinded, men whose sons died in his dungeons, whose wives and daughters were dragged into his seraglio. The fickle fools!"

2) All epitomized on the accompanying poem "The Road of Kings":

When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,<br/>
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;<br/>
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track<br/>
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.<br/>

The Poem is continued in "The Scarlet Citadel" and has the Usurper defending himself against "rightful" heirs:

''Gleaming shell of an outworn lie; fable of Right divine''<br/>
''You gained your crowns by heritage, but Blood was the price of mine.''<br/>
''The throne that I won by blood and sweat, by Crom, I will not sell''<br/>
''For promise of valleys filled with gold, or threat of the Halls of Hell!''<br/>
</div>

[quote name='Waterdancing Wench' post='78081' date='Dec 29 2005, 13.27']This is probably more an influence than a reference, and if a reference a very loose one, but the Young Dragon (Daeron I? all these Targ names get reused so many times I lose track) reminds me more than a little of Alexander the Great. "A conquest that lasted a summer" and all that. Anyway just wanted to throw that out there.[/quote]

Actually more related to a historical misconception of Alexander than historic events. Alexander campaigned for about ten years, from 333 BC to 326/325 BC. The period 325 - 323 BC played more as an aftermath. His empire survived him by fourteen years. From 323 to 309 BC when several of the most powerful satraps declared themselves kings. Moving from a united kingdom to several rival ones.

[quote name='snark' post='112264' date='Jan 22 2006, 05.16']Bran means "raven" in Welsh. In Welsh legend Bran the Blessed (called also Bendigeid Vran) was the son of the god Llyr. Later Welsh legends describe him as a king of Britain who was killed attacking Ireland.

hmm according to one commentator on that site... Bran was attacking Ireland to rescue his sister who was being mistreated by her husband.

[url="http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=bran-2"]http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=bran-2[/url][/quote]

Said sister was Branwen, "Welsh goddess of love and beauty". She was married to Matholwch, King of Ireland. However her paternal half-brother Efnysien was deeply offended than no one had considered asking him of his opinion or permission for the marriage. He arrived uninvited in the marriage celebration and mutilated the horses which formed Matholwch had offered as gifts. Bran managed to save the marriage at the last minute.

However in Ireland, Matholwch was free to take out his bitterness on his wife. Branwen was humiliated and treeted as a common servant. When Bran learned of this, he called the Britons to arms. His invasion of Ireland led to the mutual destruction of both armies. According to some versions Ireland was left with a population
consisting only of pregnant women while only a handfull of Britons lived to return to their island. Branwen died of sorrow, having survived most of her family on both sides of the Irish Sea and feeling responsible for their deaths.

On the other hand, the full name of "Brandon Stark" takes another meaning. The names "Brandon" and "Brendan" derive from Bréanainn, Irish for "Prince".

[quote name='Spirit_Crusher' post='133293' date='Feb 8 2006, 13.50']Beric Dondarrion the renegade lord hiding in the woods and harrassing the troops of an unjust ruler with the aid of commoners,reminds my strongly of...well,ehr...Robin Hood!
:lol:
Obviously only 'till the storyline concerning that group does not take a more "metaphisical" path.[/quote]

I was very amused to see Beric in the company of a priest and a minstrel. Robin Hood was accompanied by Friar Tuck and Alan-a-Dale. Friar Tuck is in most depictions "a fat, bald and jovial monk with a great love of ale"who "was expelled by his order because of his lack of respect for authority". He was already associated with the Robin legend in a play dated to about 1475. Alan-a-Dale the minstrel was added to the legend with love ballads dating to the 17th century. He nobly "rescued" fair ladies from marriages to older gentlemen. Both Thoros and Tom of Sevenstreams are quite similar in concept.

Meanwhile Lem Lemoncloak is named for the color of his clothes. Which was also true of another Robin companion, Will Scarlet. Edited by Jon Targaryen

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[quote name='Spirit_Crusher' post='141445' date='Feb 14 2006, 07.55']Another one,historical...
In the late 15th early16th century(can't remember exactly and am too lazy to check on modern history book),one nephew to pope Alexander the 6th(Borgia pope) ,Cesar Borgia calle The Valentin,invited all the nobles opposing his expansionistic desires to one feast,and while they were eating,had them all slaughtered by his
sellswords.[/quote]

Sorry but wrong on several accounts. Cesare Borgia was an illegitimate son of Rodrigo Borgia, later elected Pope Alexander VI, and Vannozza dei Cattanei.
Rodrigo and Vannozza maintained an affair from 1470 to about 1482. She was still attached to his household later though Rodrigo eventually moved on to younger mistresses.

Rumors accused Cesare of killing his enemies by inviting them to feasts. But this involved poison and not sellswords. The Borgias gained a reputation as poisoners following sudden deaths of Cardinals and nobility that brought them advantages. Not too clear if they actually did the deeds or simply took advantage of the deaths to move in and claim the inheritance. Whether they were predators or scavengers in other words.

You might be confusing him with Vlad the Impaler, Dracula:

"Almost as soon as he came to power, his first significant act of cruelty may have been motivated by a desire of revenge as well as a need to solidify his power. Early in his reign he gave a feast for his boyars and their families to celebrate Easter. Vlad was well aware that many of these same nobles were part of the conspiracy that led to his father's assassination and the burying alive of his elder brother, Mircea. Many had also played a role in the overthrow of numerous Wallachian princes. During the feast Vlad asked his noble guests how many princes had ruled during their life times. All of the nobles present had outlived several princes. One answered that at least thirty princes had held the throne during his life. None had seen less than seven reigns. Vlad immediately had all the assembled nobles arrested. The older boyars and their families were impaled on the spot. The younger and healthier nobles and their families were marched north from Târgovişte to the ruins of Poienari Castle in the mountains above the Argeş River. Vlad the Impaler was determined to rebuild this ancient fortress as his own stronghold and refuge. The enslaved boyars and their families were forced to labour for months rebuilding the old castle with materials from another nearby ruin. According to the reports, they labored until the clothes fell off their bodies and then were forced to continue working naked. Very few of the old gentry survived the ordeal of building Vlad's castle."

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Dimadick,

IIRC, battle of Poitiers, and not Tours, occured in 732.

And Martells could be a homage to whiskey. Edited by Ser Spider

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[quote name='Ser Spider' post='1170200' date='Dec 30 2007, 03.05']Dimadick,

IIRC, battle of Poitiers, and not Tours, occured in 732.

And Martells could be a homage to whiskey.[/quote]


There was a battle in 732 that is known as both The Battle of Tours and The Battle of Poitiers, fought between Frankish and Islamic armies.

There was another Battle of Poitiers in 1356, fought between English and French forces.

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MMm I know the topic is discussing homages GRRM made within the books, but I was rather happy when I stumbled upon this while having a warcraft 3 revival. The final mission of the expansion is entitled "A Symphony of Frost and Flame" to think it'd been there for so long and I never knew till I was recommended these great books :)

Also, *wave* I've been lurking a while after deciding to try out aSoIaF following alot of praise for it irl and on the WoT forums, and actually having some money to spend on luxuries like books for a change. Good to be here.

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An obvious reference.. Salladhor San eating snails and frog legs and being from Lys (Fleur-de-Lys symbol of France) ........

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I watched the History a while back....I beleivbe it was related to Ghangis. It said they poured molton silver in to a a mongold ewar or somthing. It was on great warlords...that's what it was./ Inspiration for the fate of Viserys?

Oh ane, there's an interesting army in Feast? Is that maybe like the Crusades?

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