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[quote name='serdog' post='1420482' date='Jun 30 2008, 01.55']Tickester are universal but yes Lann is much more of that repected Tickester[/quote]
Not Really a Referance or anything, but I wanted to point out that 'Lann the Trickster is probably the origin of Lannister.

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[quote name='Shewoman' post='1387429' date='Jun 7 2008, 12.09']Neurosis, I think you're thinking of Sir William Marshall. Ser Arthur Dayne might owe something to him.[/quote]

Yes, I remembered it a short while later. I would like to see more of Arthur, because I believe on intuition George will incorporate a lot of William into him. As a little backstory to those unfamiliar with William: at a time before they made tourneys into purely sporting affairs (before they blunted the swords, made the lances break-away, and made the tourney armour heavy and nigh impentrable [the heavy tourney armour accounts for Mark Twayne's impression of armour - which is largely nonsense, since a well made suit of armour weighed 25-30 kg]), William had the following reputation: "His record is legendary: he supposedly fought in 500 such bouts in his life and never lost once."

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[quote name='DocBean' post='1433472' date='Jul 9 2008, 19.02']In Feast for Crowns Arianne explains to Arys Oakheart that:

House Toland of Ghost Hill's Sigil is a Dragon biting it's own tail.
The dragon is time; it has no beginning, no ending.

Could be another reference to The Wheel of Time.
Aeis Sedai wear a ring with a snake biting it's own tail, that signifies Time without end.[/quote]
See my post above: [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=784&view=findpost&p=1371071"]#308[/url]

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When Jaime goes to Harrenhal on his way to Riverrun, he comes across Gregor's men.
Gregor had fed part of Vargo Hoat to his prisoners, and to Hoat himself.
Jaime learned about Sandor killing the men at the crossroads inn and thought to himself that both of his father's dogs had gone bad.
Vargo's Nose and Ears had been slit off, along with his head.

He thought of a story he was told as a child of:
Mad Lady Loftston who bathed in tubs of blood and precided over feasts of human flesh - reference to the Lady of Blood: Countess Bathory
who was also a cannibal and bathed in the blood of her virgin victims.

[i]One enduring legend is that Erzsébet had slapped a servant girl one day, got blood on her hand, and after washing it off found that it made her skin look younger. Alchemists apparently assured her that this was a sign of her nobility, so to restore her waning beauty, she made a practice of bathing in virginal blood. These ideas were suggested in 1795 by Wagener, when he (as translated by Sabine Baring-Gould) wrote: "Elizabeth was wont to dress well in order to please her husband, and she spent half the day over her toilet. On one occasion, a lady's-maid saw something wrong in her head-dress, and as a recompense for observing it, received such a severe box on the ears that the blood gushed from her nose, and spurted on to her mistress's face. When the blood drops were washed off her face, her skin appeared much more beautiful—whiter and more transparent on the spots where the blood had been."

Apparently, "Elizabeth formed the resolution to bathe her face and her whole body in human blood so as to enhance her beauty." Her accomplices, he said, would catch the blood in a tub so that Erzsébet could "bathe at the hour of four in the morning. After the bath she appeared more beautiful than before."
[/i]

I know this story from a [b][url="http://www.spawn.com/toys/horror/monsters3/elizabeth/images/monsters3_elizabeth_photo_04_dp.jpg"]toy[/url][/b] I saw in a local Record Shop. Edited by DocBean

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[quote name='Night Watchman' post='1433531' date='Jul 9 2008, 14.32']Not Really a Referance or anything, but I wanted to point out that 'Lann the Trickster is probably the origin of Lannister.[/quote]
It is probably a nod to Loki who is a Trickster as well and father of giants.
I noticed the name Daeron appears in the Silmarillion as a minstrel as well at the court of Thingol who betrayed Luthien twice because he wanted her himself. Thinking this is where the name of the Nightwatchman that Arya kills came from.

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i haven't read *all* 17 pages, so this may be on here already....

i get a very 'Secret Garden' (by Frances Hodgson Burnett) feel about Sansa and Robert. Sansa is somewhat like Mary Lennox, in that she was a spoiled girl from a high family who has lost her parents. She was sent away to Misselthwaite Manor where for a while she is left mostly to the whims of Mrs. Medlock (Septa Mordane being a combo of Medlock and Ayah). I think Sansa's time at the Red Keep is similar to the time Mary is left under Ayah's care in India.

Robert is like Colin Craven, a lonely isolated boy who is petulant and sickly. They are thrown together and wind up becoming friends. At first, Mary isn't a huge fan of Colin because he's such a pain. But after a time she grows to pity and eventaully really care for Colin. Mary (well, and Dickon, but I don't see anyone mirroring that role) nurses Colin back to health against everyone's direction, as the entire house thought him to be crippled beyond help.

As Mary helped Colin while Mr. Craven was away, so too will Sansa help Robert while Littlefinger is away working his plans and whatnot.

coincidence that Sansa calls Robert 'Sweetrobin' and it was a robin that showed Mary where the door to the garden is?

There. Now I've posted it here, too.

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Castle Darry and Gatehouse Ami vs. Lancel/Jaime... possible homage to Castle Anthrax from Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

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[quote name='DocBean' post='1426578' date='Jul 3 2008, 15.22']I ran a search and didn't see this one in there yet.

Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning who weilds Dawn

is very similar to Robert Jordan's main character in his Wheel of Time Series,
Rand Al'Thor, the Lord of the Morning, Prince of Dawn[/quote]

He also sounds like King Arthur, who wielded Excalibur. Hell, he even has the same name. The Sword of the Morning is also a constellation, and Arthur has his own in Ursa Major. Dawn is said to be of meteoric origin; one of the legends of the Holy Grail states it is the emerald that fell from Lucifer's crown as he was cast from Heaven. The Grail is also said in some traditions to also be of meteoric origin, like the Benben Stone of Heliopolis.

All of these references to Lords of the Morning, Sword of the Morning...those are, I believe references to Venus. The Morning Star. It's probably accidental, but you never know. Lucifer himself was called the Morning Star and the Lord of Light. (Just like R'hllor.)

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[quote name='DocBean' post='1433472' date='Jul 9 2008, 14.02']In Feast for Crowns Arianne explains to Arys Oakheart that:

House Toland of Ghost Hill's Sigil is a Dragon biting it's own tail.
The dragon is time; it has no beginning, no ending.

Could be another reference to The Wheel of Time.
Aeis Sedai wear a ring with a snake biting it's own tail, that signifies Time without end.[/quote]

It's the Ouroboros. It means infinity (time), but it also means cyclicality and unity. It stands for the eternal return, and of cycles that begin again as soon as they end (like the phoenix). The dragon (a winged serpent) bites its own tail to sustain its own life.

It just might be the oldest symbol in the world. It's a mystical symbol that goes back to ancient Egypt.

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I might be alone in thinking this, but: Under Euron's eyepatch I'm betting he's got an eye like the old man from 'The Telltale Heart.'

Jaime threatens someone with oubliettes, terrible, narrow oubliettes, under the Rock. Martin might have been inspired by the inside of Hannibal Lecter's mind.

Oh, and one more - hope no one's pointed it out: Lady Lothston is kind of a parallel to Elizabeth Bathory.

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Yes, just on this page someone has said Lothston=Bathory. Heard the Bathory story from my sister who is a vampire lore fan.

Also, I bet whoever said ring in wheel of time instead of Ouroboros... feels like a nerd.

I wouldn't have anything to add to this thread. The references to things outside fantasy are obvious, and the only fantasy I read besides this is Tolkien (who I grow to dislike more and more each day, as I like Martin more).

ETA: Yeah, Euron's eye might be like that. I'm hoping it's something that would be seen as a weakness, not like a demon red eye that sees all. I'm hoping for cataracts, though he's somewhat young. Edited by pondrthis

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I just realized something. The Bolton's are possibly a reference to the semi-legendary Sawney Bean clan from Scottish history, particularly because of their fondness for flaying people and wearing their skins like a cloak. Ramsay's association with cannibalism also looks to be a deliberate link to Sawney Bean. Edited by Ouroboros

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[quote name='Nymeria Sand' post='1469241' date='Aug 5 2008, 14.29']It's the Ouroboros. It means infinity (time), but it also means cyclicality and unity. It stands for the eternal return, and of cycles that begin again as soon as they end (like the phoenix). The dragon (a winged serpent) bites its own tail to sustain its own life.

It just might be the oldest symbol in the world. It's a mystical symbol that goes back to ancient Egypt.[/quote]
Damn straight it is. Its more or less a universal symbol as well, picked up by nearly every religion at one point or another.

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Here's a Lovecraftian stretch:

The short story The Hound is essentially about two graverobbers who end up stealing something they shouldn't. And the protector of the grave is the hound.

This only works of course (and still it's a stretch/shot in the dark) if in fact Sandor Clegane is the grave digger, of which I am still not convinced...

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Seems a bit obvious, but some of you may have missed it. The Greyjoy's main island(s) is called Wyk. "Vik", in Norse, means "inlet", and is the source of the name viking. In fact, I remember reading somewhere that the vikings got their name specifically because on one of their first raids, one of the survivors said they were men from "Vik" (which is also a region in Norway).

Now take this, along with the german language custom of "w" being pronounced "v" (Richard Wagner, for example). Plus, it seems to me that GRRM likes to replace "i" with "y" quite often, just to add a bit of exocitism to his stories (Raydar=Raider, Wyk=Wik, Arya=Aria, plus dozens of others I'm sure I'm forgetting).

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Ok, we all noted the parallels between Tywin Lannister and Edward I. Longshanks, I guess, but there is ANOTHER nobleman of real history reminiscent in some aspects of Tywin - an ancestor of Edward I., William X. of Aquitaine.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_X_of_Aquitaine"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_X_of_Aquitaine[/url]

First of all, check out the Coat of Arms. Yeah. What about that, huh? ;)

Secondly, note the following part:

"Even inside his borders, William faced an alliance of the Lusignans and the Parthenays against him, an issue resolved with total destruction of the enemies."

Castamere and Tarbeck Hall, anyone? ;)

William's daughter was the famous/infamous Eleanor of Aquitaine, a permanent source of scandals, alleged to have had an incestous relationship (with her uncle), always trying her best to rule on her own as much as possible, and playing out her sons against their father. She was married to both the King of France and the King of England, who were rivals (the first seed of the 100 years war) - not THAT much similarity to Cersei, but she WAS promised to Raegar in a way, and later married Robert instead.

That's about it, I am afraid. Mind you, I am not saying Tywin is a carbon-copy of William, there is too much Edward I. in Tywin for that, AND too much of stuff Martin inserted of his own into his creation. Still, I see parallels - I hope you do too. :)

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Don't know if this has been mentioned, but IIRC, the butcher king of Astapor is called Cleon yes? Cleon is used by Asimov as the last strong emperor, but more importantly cleon was a real person in ancient greece who was one of the first politicians to have influence due to commercial wealth rather than noble ancestry.

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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='HT Reddy' post='1500704' date='Aug 30 2008, 19.50']Don't know if this has been mentioned, but IIRC, the butcher king of Astapor is called Cleon yes? Cleon is used by Asimov as the last strong emperor, but more importantly cleon was a real person in ancient greece who was one of the first politicians to have influence due to commercial wealth rather than noble ancestry.[/quote]
I don't know if this is in any way intentional or not, but the description of the Statues of the Stark kings and lords (enthroned and clutching swords on their laps) has always reminded me of the [url="http://history.chess.free.fr/images/medieval/lewis-kings.jpg"]kings[/url] from the[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_chessmen"] Lewis chess sets[/url].

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