References and Homages

[Ecthelion]

Apologies in advance if anything I cover here was previously mentioned.

Furthering the comparisons between Westeros and England. The timeline gets skewed - but one could make a fairly compelling argument of the Children of the Forest being equivalent to the indigenous Britons, Gaels, and Picts, with the first men as the Angles. The Andals could then be considered as a combination of Saxons and Romans.

This can be taken another step with Aegon and the Valaryians being equated to William I and the Normans (both stylized as "The Conqueror"). This makes a lot of sense, as the War of the Roses was fought between two successor branches of the House of Plantagenet, which was the house founded by William the Conqueror.

Historically the War of the Roses ended when Henry VII (a Lancaster cousin) inherited their claim, and married Elizabeth of York, uniting the houses while simultaneously stamping out the rest of the rebellious forces, and founding the House of Tudor.

So, IF Martin were to take a strict adaptation (and I'm not implying he will, mind you), it would be akin to somebody like Lancel, or perhaps the missing Tyrek, marrying Sansa or Arya after everybody else was killed off, uniting Winterfell and Casterly Rock, and taking the Iron Throne.

[Emo Targaryen]

The timeline gets skewed - but one could make a fairly compelling argument of the Children of the Forest being equivalent to the indigenous Britons, Gaels, and Picts, with the first men as the Angles. The Andals could then be considered as a combination of Saxons and Romans.

The Angles came to England more or less together with the Saxons, after the Roman rule.

Alternative: The mythical Children of the Forest are the equally mythical Sidhe/Tuatha de Danann, the First Men are the Celts (aka Britons/Picts/Gaels/Milesians; said to have had a closer connection to the Children than later invaders, their original culture died out except for remote areas), the Andals are Anglo-Saxons (came as invaders and achieved cultural dominance), the Targs are Normans (invaded and ruled, but assimilated into the existing culture).

[firebolt1]

Seeing as we're comparing Westros and early Meadevil England, anyone notice the similarities between the Greyjoy's and the Plangent's? Balon as Henery the II and Alannys Harlaw as Elanor of Aquitaine. Theon is John, (the youngest, whiny skilled but not brilliant) Asha, Richard (intelligent, closer to her mother, has a working relationship with Balon, but grudging)Maron and Rodrik Henery the Yong King and Goffery (both the two oldest, and did before the events of the books). Gee, I need to stop reading.

[Corvino]

I always had the continent of Westeros down as western Europe in Microcosm. In all probablity too much time has been put into this post and the thinking behind it.

Beyond the Wall could be seen as Scotland, with the wildlings analogous to the Picts or Scots. That a giant, coast to coast wall divides it from the Seven Kingdoms is similar to Hadrian's Wall. It's not a perfect theory, as the wildlings seem linked to the First Men in some way.

The North & Iron islands are a bit more muddled, if only because Northern England is a bit more muddled. Historic Northumbria had quite a mix of cultures from about the 9th century AD onward: Celts, Angles, Saxons, Jutes & Danes/Vikings. I'm not sure I've got a coherent First Men candidate here but the general toughness, hostility to the values of the Seven and predeliction for axes & furs seem to show a bit of Danish/Norse/Viking influence. Whenever I read about the North I think a bit of Northumbria in Bernard Cornwell's Saxon stories.

As for the Vale - Switzerland? Lots of mountains and isolationist policies. We shall see.

The Westerlands, Riverlands, Kingslands, Stormlands and the Reach haven't been given quite as much to differentiate them culturally. Southern England, France, Germany & the Netherlands shared a lot of culture in the medieval period, which is how I think of it. They're distinctive and proud, but still share quite a lot of background and the ruling Houses regularly intermarry. They also go to war regularly, and let's face it, that's most of European medieval history.

Dorne is fairly unquestionably the iberian peninsula. They favour spears in battle (at least the Spanish did in Medieval: TW). There are distinct ethnic groups within the kingdom, the "Salty", "Sandy" and "Stony" Dornishmen according to Daeron I. Medieval Spain was a cultural meltingpot, with groups of Muslims, Jews, Basques and others. It's also fairly southern, deserty and fits my Western Europe comparison too well to throw away.

The Free cities seem like the Italian city-states, with by logical extension Valyria being the Roman empire.

If you have bothered to read this all the way to the end, you have wasted almost as much time as I have. I salute you.

*edited for typos*

Edited March 10, 2011 by Corvino

[Mark Lawrence]

I have small question:

How people treated bastards in RL medieval? Are they treated like in ASoIaF, with prejudices and without respect?

I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that would be a 'yes'. Children born out of wedlock had to deal with prejudice in the UK for most of the last century and it only got worse as you go back & the grip of the church on society gets ever stronger.

I'm certain they didn't have indicative surnames with appropriate region variation (snow, sand, rivers etc)! I do like that idea though. Very clever.

[Stakhanov]

and the castle Atranta refers to the fantasy world invented by the titular character in Bad Ronald.

Sorry, a quick quote from right at the start, and sorry if this has been covered already, but I think both of these names are derived from the original Gothic novel The Castle of Otranto by Horace Walpole (1764).

[Scafloc]

Dorne is fairly unquestionably the iberian peninsula. They favour spears in battle (at least the Spanish did in Medieval: TW). There are distinct ethnic groups within the kingdom, the "Salty", "Sandy" and "Stony" Dornishmen according to Daeron I. Medieval Spain was a cultural meltingpot, with groups of Muslims, Jews, Basques and others. It's also fairly southern, deserty and fits my Western Europe comparison too well to throw away.

Dorne also has a bit of Wales. Isolated from the rest of the land by mountains. The only part that was conquered by "the Conqueror" (William / Aegon). A slightly different attitude to bastardy. Different succession rules.And of course the title: Prince instead of King.

[Drezin]

Well, I'm glad to see I figured out one on my own--Samwell being an homage to Samwise.

[Werthead]

Dorne also has a bit of Wales. Isolated from the rest of the land by mountains. The only part that was conquered by "the Conqueror" (William / Aegon). A slightly different attitude to bastardy. Different succession rules.And of course the title: Prince instead of King.

There's also a Cornish influence. Cornwall is a peninsular (extended westwards rather than eastwards though) and fiercely independant (aside from the formerly separate countries of Wales and Scotland, Cornwall is - arguably - the most independently-minded part of the UK), plus there's the whole Dornish/Cornish thing.

Cornwall doesn't have any deserts though ;)

[Ser Duck]

Dolorous Edd and Eeyore

:leaving:

[Josiah Rowe]

Dolorous Edd and Eeyore

:leaving:

I saw him more as Puddleglum, myself.

(Specifically, Puddleglum as played by Tom Baker in the BBC adaptation of The Silver Chair.)

[Targaryen loyalist]

The Free cities seem like the Italian city-states, with by logical extension Valyria being the Roman empire.

*edited for typos*

I agree, Braavos is very close to Venice in its description.

[smegma]

Sorry, a quick quote from right at the start, and sorry if this has been covered already, but I think both of these names are derived from the original Gothic novel The Castle of Otranto by Horace Walpole (1764).

No, the main character in Otranto is Manfred (other major male characters are Theodore and Conrad). Just read it quite recently so it's very fresh in my mind :) No Roland. I think Ran is correct when he says this is a Jack Vance reference.

[Binky]

Beyond the Wall could be seen as Scotland, with the wildlings analogous to the Picts or Scots. That a giant, coast to coast wall divides it from the Seven Kingdoms is similar to Hadrian's Wall. It's not a perfect theory, as the wildlings seem linked to the First Men in some way.

Actually, that makes Wildlings as Picts fit even better, as place name analysis indicates that the Pictish language (Or one of them at least, there may have been an older language used ceremonially, as some presumably Pictish inscriptions are indecipherable) was essentially Brythonic, related to the languages spoken by the Britons who inhabited the rest of Britain, including southern Scotland. So if the Britons are analogous to the First Men, the Wildlings could be inspired by the Picts and still have cultural and genetic ties.

The Iron Islands could also be similar to the Hebrides, albeit a little too far South for it to match geographically (But then, they're too far South for the straight Scandinavia-analogue anyway), as Scotland's control of the islands was generally nominal at best, and they were subject to the Norwegian crown as often as they were to the Scottish early on, had many Norse cultural influences (including birlinns, which are a form of galley patterned after longships), they were also led by the Rí Innse Gall, or King of the Isles. The reason I like this comparison is because it seems to fit well time period wise, as the Western Islanders maintained their galleys and so in into the 15th century, making them contemperary with the medieval-esque setting of aSoIaF while the Viking Age had ended fully four hundred years earlier. They were also an island chain, which fits with the Iron Islands being, uh... Islands too.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Binky

[Targaryen loyalist]

I was wondering this morning to this analogy:

Daenerys = Elizabeth I

Both have their struggle to claim the throne, both faced betrayals and both faced a big invasion (Elizabeth the Invincible Armada, Dany the Others).

Elizabeth was the Virgin Queen, she had not children. Dany, as far as we know, is barred and maybe she doesn't want to re-marry again.

[Buckwheat]

Interesting how many people apparently connect Westeros=Europe. It always seemed to me more like Westeoros=America.

Yes, I know that there was no such medieval culture in America, but only the shape of the continent (stretching from north to south) and the division of the map into North and South in the first book and the fact that they only speak one language there (America - mostly only English, Spanish and Portugese)and the mentionings of the other parts of the world made me think so. Maybe then North=Northern America or maybe only Canada, the southern part is South America. Aegon's army=conquistadors (I dearly hope I spelled that right, it is not in the dictionary), defending the poor first men and children of the forest=native Americans.

Then I took Narrow See to be the Atlantic Ocean (which is not really narrow, it only lays there) and the whole area of the Free Cities, Slaver's Bay, Naath .. as Europe. Braavos=obviously Venice, the others could be the cities like Genova, Marseille, Lisbona ...

Old Valyria is the destroyed ancient culture that the whole new culture depeneds on and uses the ancient wisdom and so on, so that is then ancient Greece or ancient Rome. I do not know exactly about the Doom of Valyria, but I always imagined it as a consequence of a volcanic eruption (Do not ask me where I got it from, I am almost sure there is no textual evidence for it) so that would be like the destruction of the Minoan culture on Crete. The Valyrian language is like Latin.

Naath=possibly Sicily? In the middle ages, it was about the only European state with a sort of religious tolerance, and the island seems to be very peaceful and ideal, depending on Missandei's words.

The Dothraki sea of grass and the things round here shoule then be somewhere in Asia, I always imagined the Dothraki sea somewhere in Mongolia, although it really does not make too much sense because it is too far away. The Asshai and things are supposed to be somewhere further east, I cannot connect them to any culture/place I know of.

At least that is how it looks to me from my central-european point of view.

[Snow White]

At least that is how it looks to me from my central-european point of view.

Funny. To my American POV Westeros looks like a long England with a bit of the Mediterranean and possible Scandinavia tacked on, while the Free Cities/Valeria look like pre-modern Italy et al. shoved up a bit north.

[Targaryen loyalist]

Aegon is clearly William the Conqueror, the Targaryen are the Normans/Angevins/Plantagenet.

The Conquistadores basically exterminated all the indigenous population, while Aegon like William simply defeated the previous rulers.

Westeros resembles England for most of its extent, with Dorne being like a Mediterranean conuntry and the Free Cities like the Italian ones (as Snow White sayd).

[mormont]

I think it's a mix. In scale, geography, and climate, Westeros is much more like the Americas: in culture, it's more like Western Europe generally (not just Britain): in history, the closest analogies are probably with Britain.

[Jack Of All Trades]

[insert sorry if it's been mentioned before sentence here]

I've seen a lot of similarities to Edmund Spenser's Faery Queene. What made me first realize this is that the main character in book 3 is named Britomart. A woman knight, who was stronger and more skilled than most men, on a quest to find her love. I immediately connected this character to Brienne.

Another thing I noticed is that the amount of characters and different quests by all of these characters. The expansiveness of the world is also reminiscent of GRRM's world.

There's probably a lot more to connect between the two but I'm not going in depth as I'm not focused right now.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Mr. Pelican