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I've been reading a great book on world mythology recently, and I found similarities between Shiva and Bloodraven. (this post might get long).

First, Shiva's birth:

"... a pillar of fire in the form of an enormous phallus appeared in front of them. It was so tall that it's tip disappeared into the clouds and its base seemed to be buried deep in the ground...

Shiva has three eyes, the third represents wisdom. He is a complex character which is represented bu his 1008 titles (a thousand eyes and one?). Bloodraven is also a complex character - great bastard, Targ/First men, master of whispers, imprisoned, sent to the wall, LC of the NW, deserter, last greenseer... One of Shiva's weapons he is most associated with is his bow (BR's weirwood bow).

Shiva's form: Shiva has a Trident in the right lower arm, with a crescent moon on his head. He is said to be fair like camphor or like an ice clad mountain. He has fire and Damaru and Mala or a kind of weapon. He wears five serpents as ornaments. He wears a garland of skulls. He is pressing with his feet the demon Muyalaka, a dwarf holding a cobra (Leaf? Reaching here). He faces south (BR is in the north, maybe he faces south too). Panchakshara itself is his body.

Blue throat: The epithet Nīlakaṇtha (Sanskrit नीलकण्ठ; nīla = "blue", kaṇtha = "throat")[85][86] since Shiva drank the Halahala poison churned up from the Samudra Manthan to eliminate its destructive capacity. This reminds me of the Shade of the evening, which may also be a way of "opening third eye". This is not really a reference to BR, for we don't have any evidence of him drinking shade, but still.

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Just read Tyrion's Selhorys chapter. After he fucks the whore he thinks: 'This girl is as good as dead.I have just fucked a corpse.'

Put me in mind of GRRM's short story Meathouse Man. Which was really bloody creepy.

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Did anyone catch that Lysa Tully's long string of failed pregnancies are similar to Queen Anne of Britian's? The only difference is that Lysa had a child survive longer than a few days.

Queen Anne (Stuart) did give birth to a child who was created Duke of Gloucester, but he was sickly--he had some form of spinal problem and died by the age of 13.

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Other than the word "Riverrun," the "monomyth" aspect of the series is a nod to Joyce. The opening line from Finnigans Wake: "riverrun, past Eve and Adams, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by commodious vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Envions. . . " The words, "commodius vicus," is a reference by Joyce to Giambattista Vico and his theory that history is cyclical; from gods to heros to men and so on and so on. The end is the beginning and the beginning the end, as the first part of the first sentence is the last part of the last sentence.

Love your name, plurabel!

Great catch, Blisscraft! Despite the fact that I am capable of reading Joyce and getting some references from his writing, I cannot do the same as effectively with GRRM. I wonder what that says about me or about both writers. I suppose GRRM is very good at subtlety or at writing in such a way that we find references he did not intend to plant there. Haha! In any case... Thanks, this is my nickname in pretty much everything on the internet. I played Anna Livia twice on Bloomsday celebrations and grew to like the character and polyssemy surrounding it, so I came up with a simplified version of the name that is more congenial especially in my native language.

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I always thought that "Riverrun" was a reference to Finnigan's Wake. The first word in it is "riverrun."

Good call on Joyce - what context is it used? :thumbsup:

I haven't read FW for a while, but Joyce wrote with meticulous meanness, and he carefully places words in sentences to mean more than four things+- including his punctuation; i.e. Molly Bloom's menestration takes up an entire page with a PERIOD. :read:

Edited by evita mgfs

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Good call on Joyce - what context is it used? :thumbsup:

I haven't read FW for a while, but Joyce wrote with meticulous meanness, and he carefully places words in sentences to mean more than four things+- including his punctuation; i.e. Molly Bloom's menestration takes up an entire page with a PERIOD. :read:

It's been a long time for me and Joyce as well. However, back in the day, I spent a great deal of time with Joyce scholars (a rowdy bunch with a taste for whiskey and cigarettes and animated conversation) . As far as context, I'm a bit confused. Do you mean in this series or FW? Both? Also, I think that Molly Bloom's chapter is one of the most amazing pieces of writing ever. yes I do yes yes yes :blushing:

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It's been a long time for me and Joyce as well. However, back in the day, I spent a great deal of time with Joyce scholars (a rowdy bunch with a taste for whiskey and cigarettes and animated conversation) . As far as context, I'm a bit confused. Do you mean in this series or FW? Both? Also, I think that Molly Bloom's chapter is one of the most amazing pieces of writing ever. yes I do yes yes yes :blushing:

Me too - our prof did the breakthrough work in FW, even wrote the Cliff Notes and lots of other analytical books. I should reread Joyce, for my great prof died a few months ago - so in his honor -

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Me too - our prof did the breakthrough work in FW, even wrote the Cliff Notes and lots of other analytical books. I should reread Joyce, for my great prof died a few months ago - so in his honor -

I agree! To your great prof :cheers:

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Great catch, Blisscraft! Despite the fact that I am capable of reading Joyce and getting some references from his writing, I cannot do the same as effectively with GRRM. I wonder what that says about me or about both writers. I suppose GRRM is very good at subtlety or at writing in such a way that we find references he did not intend to plant there. Haha! In any case... Thanks, this is my nickname in pretty much everything on the internet. I played Anna Livia twice on Bloomsday celebrations and grew to like the character and polyssemy surrounding it, so I came up with a simplified version of the name that is more congenial especially in my native language.

Plurabel - One of my professors was Italian and often said that Joyce was powerfully influenced by his years in Trieste. Its geography was such that many languages and cultures overlapped. GRRM, although a wonderful story teller, is not quite so multilingual and multicultural by comparison.

Edited by Blisscraft

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Some more I found out recently:

There's a shout-out to Beauty and the Beast, the film and the original French fairy tale, in Sandor's negative to be addressed as a ser and his attitude towards flattery. And there's also a faint resemblance to the poem Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman in his description of the coat of arms of House Clegane (The three dogs that died in the yellow of autumn grass).

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Some more I found out recently:

There's a shout-out to Beauty and the Beast, the film and the original French fairy tale, in Sandor's negative to be addressed as a ser and his attitude towards flattery. And there's also a faint resemblance to the poem Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman in his description of the coat of arms of House Clegane (The three dogs that died in the yellow of autumn grass).

interesting since G.R.R.M. wrote beauty and the best the t.v. show satrring hellboy. they did a crackup job covering his red skin and reducing the size of his hand. check it out, you seriously wont belive the job those makeup artists did. I mean HOW ON EARTH did they make his hand smaller. It blows my mind.

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Since Gatsby has been mentioned, I just saw the trailer for the movie The Great Gatsby starring Leonardo DiCaprio as Jay and a host of amazing actors. They show Gatsby coming out of the “rain” – dripping – to reestablish a relationship with Daisy – but I didn’t see him knock the clock from the mantle. ( These are details other movie versions don’t include. Lots of other super scenes in the trailer: the party sequences, wow!)

Since we have Gatsby fans, here’s the link for the trailer on YouTube:

It is filmed in Three-D and looks visually magical. Now, which to see on Christmas day? – Les Miz? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1enONASZ4A

or Gatsby? When will there be time for family, presents, and dinner? :drool:

Also, since many in this thread are mentioning motifs from Gatsby similar to those in the reread POV’s, I thought I would offer up (from memory) a list I used to give to my students “regarding” their analytical papers on Gatsby; some of these motifs may evoke similar motifs in Martin. (I mention many of the motifs, but not all, I am sure, with briefly noted illustrations from the book, and forgive my memory. I may have misspelled names and misquoted).

BTW – I never even considered the Gatsby Concordance until making this editing note! (I think the GC helps more in finding quotes – although I haven’t been there in years, honest).

  • Magic – (now presenting the magician the ‘great’ Gatsby; floating cocktails, “seizes a cocktail out of air”; Gatsby vanishes at docks and “appears” at party – Nick doesn’t even know he is talking to his host, etc.)
  • Detective Story/Crime/Spy/eavesdropping – (all the mystery around Gatsby; he killed a man; )
  • Alcohol – (Prohibition, sneaking liquor into hotel in NYC, etc.}
  • Games – (“old sport”, Tom moves Nick around “like checker piece to another square”)
  • Carnival / Circus /Performance- (balancing acts, literal and figurative; Daisy’s voice playing tricks in her throat, and more; partiers behave like people at “amusement park”; Belasco; “ticket of admission”; connects to Illusion versus Reality Motif below)
  • America and American Dream- (Gatsby’s pursuit and downfall; connect Trimalchio; Nick’s butler named “Finn” – Huck, etc.)
  • Roses, flowers, and gardens (rose colored glasses, Gatsby’s blue gardens, Daisy’s name; “she blossomed for him [Gatsby] like a flower”, Myrtle’s name, etc.)
  • Cars -(Gatsby’s Vehicle; vehicle accidents, i.e., wheel off car at G’s party and Myrtle getting hit; transportation as status symbols – apply motif to horses in Martin, Mandrely’s litter, etc.)
  • Money and the Color of Money- (Gold/Silver/Green, etc.; Daisy’s voice sounding like money, Gatsby wears a silver shirt and gold tie to meet Daisy, etc.)
  • Cheating - (World Series fixed, Jordan cheats at golf, Tom cheating Gatsby; Gatsby cheats, or breaks the law, bootlegging to earn his wealth, etc.)
  • Books -(Gatsby’s uncut books, Tom’s scientific books, Nick’s box of books and bond books, etc.)
  • Colors- lavender, rose, red, white, and blue (lawns), gray, Gatsby’s white card, and more.
  • Eyes- (TJ Eckleberg, Myrtle’s mascara smudged eyes, etc.)
  • Fertility- (East and West Egg, Egg picture, Carraway seed, etc.)
  • Unreliable Narrator -(Nick – gets hammered and sleeps with Mr. McKee? And other occasions when we ? our narrator, etc.)
  • Jazz Age -(documents the history of a period)
  • Dogs/Bitches (Myrtle, Tom buys Daisy a dog from a John D. Rockefeller look-alike, police dogs, etc.)
  • Police (Upholders of justice who are, ironically, blind; Myrtle says “Call a policeman”; etc.)
  • Nautical Motif -(Daisy and Jordan adrift on wine-dark carpet in Buchanan’s home; currents; ending line: “So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past”– underlined ‘borne’ for it also goes with fertility motif )
  • Time (Trying to repeat the past, stopping time, clocks, railroad timetable, Myrtle looks for time on the ceiling, etc.)
  • Christ-Figure- (Gatsby – crucified on his floatation device by George –Jay is stopped or trips three times while carrying it to pool? I can’t remember)
  • Illusion Vs. Reality - (Gatsby believes in the “green light” – he seeks his illusion of Daisy; he is an illusion himself; this motif also connects with magic/carnival tricks)
  • Search for Holy Grail and Knight Errant (Gatsby’s search for Daisy; Nick’s quest for order. etc.)
  • Catholic Mass- (Chapter 3) the host, whisperings, brass rail, communion recipients like partiers, etc. (This is Ser Gatsby’s chapter, so I say nothing.)
  • Patriotism -(Nick’s POV - “the republic” etc.)
  • Military- (world at formal attention, uniforms, used in verbs as well, etc.)
  • Bridges - (Brooklyn bridge, broken bridge of Myrtle’s nose)
  • Ash/Dust/Aging (Valley of Ashes, George looks like a ghost and is already dead, etc.)
  • Names (The people attending Gatsby’s parties & the significance of their names – the rotten crowd – represent corruption – “Rot-Gut’ Ferret, Leeches, Hornbeams, Edgar Beaver, Ulysses Swett, etc. )
  • Father/Son Motif (Nick quotes dad, Gatsby’s dad arrives too late)
  • Morality (moral disorder – people breaking the law, drinking, hit and run, etc.)
  • Fairies (Daisy Fey, an empty headed fool who flits about; ties in with illusion versus reality and Grail, etc.)
  • Green (Green light [GO], green card, etc.)
  • Telephone messages (think ravens – Tom’s mistress calls during Nick’s visit; Gatsby receives mysterious calls, etc.)
  • Noses – (Myrtle’s broken nose, Meyer Wolfsheim’s nose and hairs; Brewer’s shot off nose,sticking nose in another's business, etc.)

I recall Windows and Founding Fathers/Founding a Nation, but I cannot recall examples. Yikes! And it’s almost time for DWS.

I hope this helps anyone comparing – or thinking of – drawing comparisons between Fitzgerald’s work and Martin’s. I am sure I also missed motifs, so add them in later posts, if you like.

The motifs are ones that I myself can think of ASoIaF similarities; however, I am a 'details' person - I often miss the "whole" picture, if you know what I mean. I can find lots of evidence, but putting things all together as well as you people do, :bowdown: there I am limited, like Elphaba. :crying:

I sure put my mind to use for once. Now to corrupt it with Maxim, Derrick, and Val. :devil:

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Since Gatsby has been mentioned, I just saw the trailer for the movie The Great Gatsby starring Leonardo DiCaprio as Jay and a host of amazing actors. They show Gatsby coming out of the “rain” – dripping – to reestablish a relationship with Daisy – but I didn’t see him knock the clock from the mantle. ( These are details other movie versions don’t include. Lots of other super scenes in the trailer: the party sequences, wow!)

Since we have Gatsby fans, here’s the link for the trailer on YouTube:

It is filmed in Three-D and looks visually magical. Now, which to see on Christmas day? – Les Miz? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1enONASZ4A

or Gatsby? When will there be time for family, presents, and dinner? :drool:

Also, since many in this thread are mentioning motifs from Gatsby similar to those in the reread POV’s, I thought I would offer up (from memory) a list I used to give to my students “regarding” their analytical papers on Gatsby; some of these motifs may evoke similar motifs in Martin. (I mention many of the motifs, but not all, I am sure, with briefly noted illustrations from the book, and forgive my memory. I may have misspelled names and misquoted).

BTW – I never even considered the Gatsby Concordance until making this editing note! (I think the GC helps more in finding quotes – although I haven’t been there in years, honest).

  • Magic – (now presenting the magician the ‘great’ Gatsby; floating cocktails, “seizes a cocktail out of air”; Gatsby vanishes at docks and “appears” at party – Nick doesn’t even know he is talking to his host, etc.)
  • Detective Story/Crime/Spy/eavesdropping – (all the mystery around Gatsby; he killed a man; )
  • Alcohol – (Prohibition, sneaking liquor into hotel in NYC, etc.}
  • Games – (“old sport”, Tom moves Nick around “like checker piece to another square”)
  • Carnival / Circus /Performance- (balancing acts, literal and figurative; Daisy’s voice playing tricks in her throat, and more; partiers behave like people at “amusement park”; Belasco; “ticket of admission”; connects to Illusion versus Reality Motif below)
  • America and American Dream- (Gatsby’s pursuit and downfall; connect Trimalchio; Nick’s butler named “Finn” – Huck, etc.)
  • Roses, flowers, and gardens (rose colored glasses, Gatsby’s blue gardens, Daisy’s name; “she blossomed for him [Gatsby] like a flower”, Myrtle’s name, etc.)
  • Cars -(Gatsby’s Vehicle; vehicle accidents, i.e., wheel off car at G’s party and Myrtle getting hit; transportation as status symbols – apply motif to horses in Martin, Mandrely’s litter, etc.)
  • Money and the Color of Money- (Gold/Silver/Green, etc.; Daisy’s voice sounding like money, Gatsby wears a silver shirt and gold tie to meet Daisy, etc.)
  • Cheating - (World Series fixed, Jordan cheats at golf, Tom cheating Gatsby; Gatsby cheats, or breaks the law, bootlegging to earn his wealth, etc.)
  • Books -(Gatsby’s uncut books, Tom’s scientific books, Nick’s box of books and bond books, etc.)
  • Colors- lavender, rose, red, white, and blue (lawns), gray, Gatsby’s white card, and more.
  • Eyes- (TJ Eckleberg, Myrtle’s mascara smudged eyes, etc.)
  • Fertility- (East and West Egg, Egg picture, Carraway seed, etc.)
  • Unreliable Narrator -(Nick – gets hammered and sleeps with Mr. McKee? And other occasions when we ? our narrator, etc.)
  • Jazz Age -(documents the history of a period)
  • Dogs/Bitches (Myrtle, Tom buys Daisy a dog from a John D. Rockefeller look-alike, police dogs, etc.)
  • Police (Upholders of justice who are, ironically, blind; Myrtle says “Call a policeman”; etc.)
  • Nautical Motif -(Daisy and Jordan adrift on wine-dark carpet in Buchanan’s home; currents; ending line: “So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past”– underlined ‘borne’ for it also goes with fertility motif )
  • Time (Trying to repeat the past, stopping time, clocks, railroad timetable, Myrtle looks for time on the ceiling, etc.)
  • Christ-Figure- (Gatsby – crucified on his floatation device by George –Jay is stopped or trips three times while carrying it to pool? I can’t remember)
  • Illusion Vs. Reality - (Gatsby believes in the “green light” – he seeks his illusion of Daisy; he is an illusion himself; this motif also connects with magic/carnival tricks)
  • Search for Holy Grail and Knight Errant (Gatsby’s search for Daisy; Nick’s quest for order. etc.)
  • Catholic Mass- (Chapter 3) the host, whisperings, brass rail, communion recipients like partiers, etc. (This is Ser Gatsby’s chapter, so I say nothing.)
  • Patriotism -(Nick’s POV - “the republic” etc.)
  • Military- (world at formal attention, uniforms, used in verbs as well, etc.)
  • Bridges - (Brooklyn bridge, broken bridge of Myrtle’s nose)
  • Ash/Dust/Aging (Valley of Ashes, George looks like a ghost and is already dead, etc.)
  • Names (The people attending Gatsby’s parties & the significance of their names – the rotten crowd – represent corruption – “Rot-Gut’ Ferret, Leeches, Hornbeams, Edgar Beaver, Ulysses Swett, etc. )
  • Father/Son Motif (Nick quotes dad, Gatsby’s dad arrives too late)
  • Morality (moral disorder – people breaking the law, drinking, hit and run, etc.)
  • Fairies (Daisy Fey, an empty headed fool who flits about; ties in with illusion versus reality and Grail, etc.)
  • Green (Green light [GO], green card, etc.)
  • Telephone messages (think ravens – Tom’s mistress calls during Nick’s visit; Gatsby receives mysterious calls, etc.)
  • Noses – (Myrtle’s broken nose, Meyer Wolfsheim’s nose and hairs; Brewer’s shot off nose,sticking nose in another's business, etc.)

I recall Windows and Founding Fathers/Founding a Nation, but I cannot recall examples. Yikes! And it’s almost time for DWS.

I hope this helps anyone comparing – or thinking of – drawing comparisons between Fitzgerald’s work and Martin’s. I am sure I also missed motifs, so add them in later posts, if you like.

The motifs are ones that I myself can think of ASoIaF similarities; however, I am a 'details' person - I often miss the "whole" picture, if you know what I mean. I can find lots of evidence, but putting things all together as well as you people do, :bowdown: there I am limited, like Elphaba. :crying:

I sure put my mind to use for once. Now to corrupt it with Maxim, Derrick, and Val. :devil:

Thanks evita, I had not seen the trailer for this.. it looks splendiphorous? I'll probably go see it with my sister, she loves the book and would probably enjoy the style of the movie. There's also the inevitable comparison to be made that The Great Gatsby is the Great American novel of the 20th century, while maybe those of us fervent enough(or at least I will) will call A Song of Ice and Fire the Great American Novels of the late 20th-early 21st century.

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IDK if this was intentional, but Arya, where the word Aryan comes from (think of the indo-european cultural group) means "twice born", or someone who has gone through an initiation and become truly free.

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The RW has always reminded me of the Campbells' slaughter of the MacDonalds. Apologies if this has been raised before.

I think this was called the Black dinner. and I think this has been confirmed.

I descend from the Campbells ... *face palm*

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anyone else think small paul is a lot like lennie from of mice and men ? espicially the whole dont touch my bird and obsessing over a bird which he doesnt actually own yet not to mention the whole to strong for his own good thing

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IDK if this was intentional, but Arya, where the word Aryan comes from (think of the indo-european cultural group) means "twice born", or someone who has gone through an initiation and become truly free.

The sanskrit term "ārya" means "noble". Both as a honorific title for the upper classes, and in having the noble qualities which make one worthy of reverence. The term was applied to persons of the kshatriya (warrior) class in the first sense, as they constituted the military and ruling term. The second use of the term typically applied to Brahmins, seekers of spiritual knowledge. Marking them as holy men to be revered.

As an epithet it was also used as an honorific for female deities. For example, the goddess Tara could be referred in a text as Arya-Tara. For more details see the Encyclopaedia of the Hindu World, Vol. 3: http://books.google....qyO4gSG34GADw&redir_esc=y#

In the 19th century, linguist Adolphe Pictet (1799-1875) suggested that the sanskrit term is related to "aireach", the Irish term for "nobleman". Which is still considered likely. The Irish term could also apply to chieftains. However, the Royal Irish Academy Dictionary noted that there was a secondary, and more rare meaning to aireach, signifying "freeman". That is anyone, including commoners, who possesses an independent legal status. See: http://books.google....q=ārya noble&f=false and http://books.google....ABQ&redir_esc=y

There were probably other cognates to "ārya" and "aireach". Linguists have noted a number of related names turning up in Late Antiquity names. See: http://books.google.gr/books?id=h2l0-3P74XoC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=ārya+noble&source=bl&ots=ylQouPon5D&sig=npn8zVfwryvCZKO_6D64A_GC83k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tIx6UMKkNqyO4gSG34GADw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=ārya%20noble&f=false and http://books.google.gr/books?id=G5W6vCO_pYUC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=Ariobindus&source=bl&ots=8jXwebfusz&sig=IRpT1ygvFs4Hp8iwZsfZuas7nzk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DJR6UO5Sp6DiBNbegdAD&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Ariobindus&f=false

*Late Roman and Byzantine sources mention "Roman" generals and noblemen whose names are rendered Areobindus, Ariobindus, Ariovindus, Arivendus, and Areovintas. These are likely spelling variations of the same name.

*Older Roman sources mention Germanic or Celtic leaders whose names are rendered Ariogaisus, Ariomanus, Ariovistus.

They conclude that the term "areo" or "ario" likely meant "leader". And that the Romans having such names were Romanized Celts or Germanic people.

Edited by Dimadick

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