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References and Homages

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So many annotations. I love it. I'm not sure if this has been covered, but in the Tolkien's trilogy, Aragorn is originally a Ranger of the North. He later becomes the king of men. So, there's that. Aragorn marries an elf, a race touched by magic...Targs.

Edited by Bran's Legs

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Robert fathers Edric Storm upon Delena Florent a lady of the bedchamber (bridesmaid?) During Stannis' wedding to Seleyse.

Reference to The Godfather where the character Vincent Mancini-Corleone is elder brother Sonny's illegitimate child fathered on a bridesmaid during Connie Corleone's marriage (the one at the beginning of the first movie in the series)?

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I haven't read all comments, but here is what I have found:

"Tides and brides wait for no man" (Bailish on his way to court Lysa) - "Time and tide wait for no man"

I don't remember where this is but someone (I think Varys, but I'm not sure) says about someone else (sarcastically) "And (help me fill in the blank) is an honorable man" - paraphrasing Mark Anthony's speech in Julius Ceasar "And Brutus is an honorable man".

Also, some biblical parallels: Cersei's character really cast some light on the character of Jezebel in the bible (a cruel, beautiful queen, who is the real manipulator behind her weak husband's throne, who tries to remain a beautiful temptress even when all her power is crumbling and she's about to be executed). And Robert Baratheon is extremely similar to the biblical description of the persian king Ahasuerus (Xerxes) - after conquering a huge kingdom his reign is about feasting and displays of wealth - and he is publicly humiliated by is queen (Vashti - Cersei). I also think there is a strong parallel between Esther and Margary Tyrell (two young, sweet-looking women who try to gain power by marrying into royalty).

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I don't know if anyone has mentioned, but I searched and have not seen much.

But Bran could be based off the legend of Fionn mac Cumhaill a celtic legend picked from the wikipedia:

Fionn's hounds, Bran and Sceolan, who were once human themselves

I do not know if George is Celtic at all or has any Celt heritage but the dog having been human once and then Bran in the series being a warg with Summer would make this a good reference.

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:37 AM

snapback.pngBlackTalon, on 18 November 2005 - 01:05 AM, said:

The big castle in Edinburgh, in Martin´s beloved Scotland, is called Castle Rock...does that ring a bell...?

Of course, Casterly Rock!

Ah, no, Edinburgh Castle is called Edinburgh Castle. We do sometimes refer to the castle rock but only in the sense of the rock on which Edinburgh Castle sits.

Mind you, there is a very popular kind of candy, which I loved when I was a kid, called Edinburgh Castle Rock. :cool4:

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It seems to me that jaime lannister could be based on the greek god of war, ares, who is ofetn depicted as a blonde haired youth in golden armour.

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Also, some biblical parallels: Cersei's character really cast some light on the character of Jezebel in the bible (a cruel, beautiful queen, who is the real manipulator behind her weak husband's throne

Her husband was Ahab, King of Israel (reigned c. 869-850 BC) and I am not certain why you consider him weak. His existence is confirmed from archeological research on the Battle of Qarqar (853 BC) where an alliance of 11 kings managed to fight the Assyrian army into a standstill and forced them to retreat. Ahab, one of the 11 allies, is credited with providing most of the war chariots of the alliance and a substantial number of soldiers.

The Biblical sources itself, which negatively depict all kings reigning from Samaria, seems to feature Ahab as a soldier-king (Book of Kings 1, Chapter 20):

"And Ben-hadad the king of Syria gathered all his host together; and there were thirty and two kings with him, and horses and chariots: and he went up and besieged Samaria, and fought against it. And he sent messengers to Ahab king of Israel, into the city, and said unto him, Thus saith Ben-hadad.

"Thy silver and thy gold is mine; thy wives also and thy children, even the goodliest, are mine."

[A long passage concerning an exchange of messages between the rival kings]

"And it came to pass, when [ben-hadad] heard this message, as he was drinking, he and the kings, in the pavilions, that he said unto his servants, Set [yourselves in array]. And they set [themselves in array] against the city. And, behold, a prophet came near unto Ahab king of Israel, and said, "Thus saith Jehovah, Hast thou seen all this great multitude? behold, I will deliver it into thy hand this day; and thou shalt know that I am Jehovah."

"And Ahab said, "By whom?" And he said, "Thus saith Jehovah, By the young men of the princes of the provinces." Then he said, "Who shall begin the battle?" And he answered, "Thou." Then he mustered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty-two: and after them he mustered all the people, even all the children of Israel, being seven thousand.

"And they went out at noon. But Ben-hadad was drinking himself drunk in the pavilions, he and the kings, the thirty and two kings that helped him. And the young men of the princes of the provinces went out first; and Ben-hadad sent out, and they told him, saying, "There are men come out from Samaria." And he said, "Whether they are come out for peace, take them alive, or whether they are come out for war, taken them alive."

"So these went out of the city, the young men of the princes of the provinces, and the army which followed them. And they slew every one his man; and the Syrians fled, and Israel pursued them: and Ben-hadad the king of Syria escaped on a horse with horsemen. And the king of Israel [Ahab] went out, and smote the horses and chariots, and slew the Syrians with a great slaughter.

"And the prophet came near to the king of Israel, and said unto him, "Go, strengthen thyself, and mark, and see what thou doest; for at the return of the year the king of Syria will come up against thee." And the servants of the king of Syria said unto him, "Their god is a god of the hills; therefore they were stronger than we: but let us fight against them in the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they." And do this thing: take the kings away, every man out of his place, and put captains in their room;and number thee an army, like the army that thou hast lost, horse for horse, and chariot for chariot; and we will fight against them in the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they. And he hearkened unto their voice, and did so.

And it came to pass at the return of the year, that Ben-hadad mustered the Syrians, and went up to Aphek, to fight against Israel.And the children of Israel were mustered, and were victualled, and went against them: and the children of Israel encamped before them like two little flocks of kids; but the Syrians filled the country.And a man of God came near and spake unto the king of Israel, and said, "Thus saith Jehovah, Because the Syrians have said, Jehovah is a god of the hills, but he is not a god of the valleys; therefore will I deliver all this great multitude into thy hand, and ye shall know that I am Jehovah."

"And they encamped one over against the other seven days. And so it was, that in the seventh day the battle was joined; and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians a hundred thousand footmen in one day.But the rest fled to Aphek, into the city; and the wall fell upon twenty and seven thousand men that were left. And Ben-hadad fled, and came into the city, into an inner chamber.And his servants said unto him, "Behold now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are merciful kings: let us, we pray thee, put sackcloth on our loins, and ropes upon our heads, and go out to the king of Israel: peradventure he will save thy life."

"So they girded sackcloth on their loins, and [put] ropes on their heads, and came to the king of Israel, and said, Thy servant Ben-hadad saith, "I pray thee, let me live". And he said, "Is he yet alive? he is my brother." Now the men observed diligently, and hasted to catch whether it were his mind; and they said, "Thy brother Ben-hadad. Then he said, Go ye, bring him. Then Ben-hadad came forth to him; and he caused him to come up into the chariot."

"And [ben-hadad] said unto him, The cities which my father took from thy father I will restore; and thou shalt make streets for thee in Damascus, as my father made in Samaria. And I, [said Ahab], will let thee go with this covenant. So he made a covenant with him, and let him go."

.

who tries to remain a beautiful temptress even when all her power is crumbling and she's about to be executed).

A bit too old to be a temptress. The passage involving her assassination takes place c. 842 BC. At the time, her son Jehoram, King of Israel and her grandson Ahaziah, King of Judah were assassinated by a rebellious Israelite general by the name of Jehu.

Jezebel wears her full regalia and goes meet Jehu in her last stand (Book of Kings 2, Chapter 9):

"And when Jehu was come to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it; and she painted her eyes, and attired her head, and looked out at the window. And as Jehu entered in at the gate, she said, "Is it peace, thou Zimri, thy master's murderer?" (She compares him to Zimri, a previous usurper king who rose to the throne by an act of treason).

"And he lifted up his face to the window, and said, Who is on my side? who? And there looked out to him two or three eunuchs. And he said, Throw her down. So they threw her down; and some of her blood was sprinkled on the wall, and on the horses: and he trod her under foot."

There is no attempt here to seduce Jehu. Jezebel simply confronts Jehu and is then killed by eunuchs willing to switch sides in the conflict.

And Robert Baratheon is extremely similar to the biblical description of the persian king Ahasuerus (Xerxes) - after conquering a huge kingdom his reign is about feasting and displays of wealth - and he is publicly humiliated by is queen (Vashti - Cersei).

Public humiliation? Lets see this passage,

Ahasuerus is "merry with wine" (drunk) and decides to display his queen in front of similarly drunk, male guests. He gives an order for Vashti to display her beauty, while wearing her crown. She refuses, and Ahasuerus gets angry. He impulsively decides to end his marriage.

Most commentators have noted that the display of a single woman to a crowd of men seems quite offensive. Particularly in light of the typical seclusion of married women from public view. Others have noted the reference to wearing her crown and no other mention of clothes. As early as the Talmud, Jewish commentators interpret the passage to mean that Vashti was ordered to appear nude, wearing nothing but her crown. Ouch.

Ahasuerus, honestly seems to be the one wishing to humiliate his wife.

Edited by Dimadick

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In the new series "Elementary' about a modern day Sherlock, I believe I heard a ASOIF reference. It was the 10th episode and it was called "the Leviathan". It was about a special bank vault that was supposed to be the most impregnable vault ever.

The company that made this vault was "Casterly Rock"! Unless my ears were deceiving me. He does have a wickedly wonderful British accent so please forgive me if I am mistaken:)

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In the new series "Elementary' about a modern day Sherlock, I believe I heard a ASOIF reference. It was the 10th episode and it was called "the Leviathan". It was about a special bank vault that was supposed to be the most impregnable vault ever.

The company that made this vault was "Casterly Rock"! Unless my ears were deceiving me. He does have a wickedly wonderful British accent so please forgive me if I am mistaken:)

I heard it too, so it can't be the accent!

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Here's a historical one: when Cersei is accused of having ordered the killing of the previous High Septon, she uses the same defence that was used by king Henry II after the killing of St. Thomas a Becket, Archbishop of Canterbury. Basically, Henry supposedly complains aloud about Thomas in the presence of his household knights and they take this as an order for the death Archbishop. Cersei makes a nearly identical claim involving the Kettleblacks rather than Fitzurse and co.

And another from the bible: When Lord Alestor Florent is imprisoned for treason, Stannis tells Davos that Alestor would have sold his birthright for a "bowl of porridge." Referring to Jacob buying Essau's birthright for a bowl of Lentil porridge in Genesis.

I've held off posting about those in the past because I thought that surely they'd been brought up before, but I looked back a few pages and didn't see anything and I've been drinking as well and thus have fewer inhibitions :).

Edited by Jon Flowers

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I just heard in my Roman history class that one of the seven legendary kings of Rome was called Tullius Hostilius. Thought maybe Hoster Tully could have come from that, if only in name.

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I just heard in my Roman history class that one of the seven legendary kings of Rome was called Tullius Hostilius. Thought maybe Hoster Tully could have come from that, if only in name.

Tullus Hostilius, as "Tullius" is a variant of the name. The king credited with destroying Alba Longa and absorbing its population to that of the Rome itself.

I wonder, however, if the tale of the Tullys was influenced by the legend of another Roman king, Servius Tullius.

According to the traditional account, Tullius had two daughters, both named Tullia. He decided to marry them to the two sons of his predecessor Lucius Tarquinius Priscus. The couples were mismatched. The meek, unambitious Aruns Tarquinius was married to the ambitious and ruthless daughter. While the proud and greedy Lucius Tarquinius was married to the meek and and kind daughter. Tullia "the Wicked" started an affair with her brother-in-law Lucius, who was closer to her own temperament. They conspired to murder their unwanted spouses. So ended the lives of Aruns and Tulia "the Good". Lucius and the surviving Tulia next married each other.

Tulia "the Wicked" was reportedly not content by just marrying her chosen lover. She wanted to become queen. So, she convinced Lucius to murder the only obstacle for their cause, her own father. Lucius started bribing various noblemen to gain their support. When he had gathered sufficient support, he killed his father-in-law and claimed the thrown for himself. Tulia herself desecrated the corpse of her hated father and denied him a proper funeral.

I wonder if Aruns served as an inspiration for Jon Arryn. With Tulia "the Wicked" serving as an inspiration for Lysa Tully. Though I have trouble seing Petyr Baelish as a man who buys the loyalties of others like Lucius. We haven't seen many people loyal to Petyr.

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I think I found a new Tolkien one; I haven't read this whole thread but can'y find it with the forum search tool.

He knew this wood, but he had been so long confined to Winterfell that he felt as though he were seeing it for the first time. The smells filled his nostrils; the sharp fresh tang of pine needles, the earthy odor of wet rotting leaves, the hints of animal musk and distant cooking fires. He caught a glimpse of a black squirrel moving through the snow-covered branches of an old oak, and paused to study the silvery web of an empress spider.

This is Bran describing the Wolfswood when he rides there on Dancer for the first time after being crippled.

The bolded details (especially coming together in the same sentence like that) reminded me of Mirkwood in The Hobbit, which counts among its most memorable inhabitants giant spiders that trap the heroes in their webs and black squirrels which characters mention as an example of how eerie the place is, implying that they are characteristic of Mirkwood and unusual in the rest of Middle-Earth.

So, am I reaching, or do I have something here?

What about when Bran and his group cross that lake on the winding secret pathway to the tower in SoS? I thought that seemed a bit twee for GRRM's universe. Surely that is an allusion to something.

Pretty sure that's another historical one: a crannóg was a Celtic dwelling consisting of a fortified artificial island in a lake. Some of them had winding secret paths just like that leading to them. So yeah, not sure what's twee about it.

Incidentally, yes, this would be where the term "crannogmen" originates as well. How fitting that Jojen and Meera were in the group that time...

http://www.mugdock-country-park.org.uk/builtheritage_moothill.html

I actually think House Frey is after the Norse Goddess Freya, the goddess of fertility. (Pretty sure it wasn't a god.)

Frey and Freya are two separate gods, brother and sister.

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I think I found a new Tolkien one; I haven't read this whole thread but can'y find it with the forum search tool.

This is Bran describing the Wolfswood when he rides there on Dancer for the first time after being crippled.

The bolded details (especially coming together in the same sentence like that) reminded me of Mirkwood in The Hobbit, which counts among its most memorable inhabitants giant spiders that trap the heroes in their webs and black squirrels which characters mention as an example of how eerie the place is, implying that they are characteristic of Mirkwood and unusual in the rest of Middle-Earth.

So, am I reaching, or do I have something here?

I wouldn't call it a reach. I've seen quite a few instances where scenes, themes, and other such details directly parallel stuff from Tolkien. I seem to notice a lot more similarities to stories from The Silmarillion and The Unfinished Tales than I do from LOTR. Off the top of my head I recall an almost exact depiction of Beren Camlost (one-hand) early on in ASOIAF, even the verbiage was almost identical down to the fighter wielding blade better with left hand than ever had with their right, and having a new nickname referencing their lost appendage.

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OK, I haven't read all 44 pages of comments so don't know if anyone has raised the influence of the Dorothy Dunnett historical fiction series about Francis Crawford. And is it just an influence or has GRRM put any actual references/homage in? The main resemblances are: Francis similar to Jaime; title of first book is A Game of Kings; sprawling geographic and cultural scale with FC travelling to many different courts; so many characters that needs a list and maps; the chess theme; the 'will Frances be able to save his illegitimate child?' bit (answer was no he sacrifices him!).... Haven't read it for a long time. There are some similar names Arryn/Arran but that probably reflects GRRM drawing on history not on the DD books.

If I recall Francis's character arc in the Lymond Chronicles--

As a 16-year-old, he is captured by the English, who defeat the Scots in battle and he is seduced by Margaret Douglas. She connives to have him shipped off to the galleys in Marsielles (I think he refuses to participate in one of her schemes--she's shown to be plotting for the Scottish throne on behalf of her husband, the earl of Lennox--or he discovers that someone close to his family has been spying for the English for a number of years). He then escapes and sets up a band of outlaws in support of the Queen Regent of Scotland, Mary de Guise, and the child-queen, Mary of Scotland. He is (inadvertently) responsible for the death of his sister, because he hides a cache of gunpowder in the convent where she is studying. There is a mystery pertaining to his birth, which is revealed right at the end of the last book. And yes, there is a case of incest between brother and sister, which is revealed in The Disorderly Knights.

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Frey and Freya are two separate gods, brother and sister.

According to the "Lokasenna", a poem where Loki accuses various gods of sexual impropriety, Frey and Freya were also lovers to each other.

""Be silent, Freyja! | thou foulest witch,

And steeped full sore in sin;

In the arms of thy brother | the bright gods caught thee"

In the same poem, Loki points out that their father Njord had impregnated his own sister. Making Frey and Freya both born of incest and practitioners of incest. The mother of Frey and Freya is left unnamed in the text. Some modern scholars have suggested this could be Nerthus, a Germanic fertility goddess already mentioned by Tacitus.

Edited by Dimadick

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very slowly going through all the pages in this thread (so fantastic btw, i love everyone's wide range of literature) so i'm not sure if this has come up, but davos may be an homage to antonio from twelfth night?

antonio's a sailor (pfft, pirate) who saves sebastian from a shipwreck and then becomes entirely devoted to him throughout the play. he's been banned from illyria (where the main action takes place) because he's accused of being a thief, yet he follows sebastian there in order to aid him. he says,

"The gentleness of all the gods go with thee!

I have many enemies in Orsino's court,

Else would I very shortly see thee there.

But, come what may, I do adore thee so,

That danger shall seem sport, and I will go."

&

"If you will not murder me for my love, let me be

your servant."

& a bunch of other super devoted, romantic things. swoon.

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