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References and Homages

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It's not really a reference or homage, but I've always thought that Jon's presence at the wall ''guarding the realms of men'' was reminiscent of Aragorn's tireless defence of The Shire with his fellow ''rangers''. Presumably if R+L=J means that Jon is one of the heads of the dragon/the true heir to the throne... literally the Return of the King.

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I don't think I saw this one. In the caves of the CotF there was a river that ran "to an unlit sea", as did the sacred river Alph in Coleridge's Xanadu. Can't be a coincidence.

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Another one:

In ASoS, when Bran is in the Nightfort, Hodor throws a slate to the well and Bran says:

I think that whole scene is an homage to Pippin throwing a stone into the well in the mines of Moria awakening the balrog. Actually, when Sam comes out from the well I expected him to be a balrog :D

I thought it was strangely familiar, but couldn't place it. Thnx for that Ashara

Edited by MIGR

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Hahaha hey i didn't say it was a perfect fit, besides Mance Rayder isn't exactly a football player now is he :)

Sorry, I get carried away when I see parallels to LoTR that are too much of a reach. And I differentiate between the Raiders as a team and the ultra-rowdy fanbase known as Raider Nation. Rattleshirt wouldn't get a second glance among them.

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More of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser:

In The Lords of Quarmall, the selfsame lords bear a close resemblance to a certain noble family of Westeros. Prince Gwaay habitually speaks so low that one has to draw near to hear him. He is very concerned with appearances and propriety, yet thinks nothing of killing his own servants when he feels the need. His brother Hasjarl, is an ugly man, of great strength and energy and little in the way of restraint. His chief preasure is the torture of attractive young women. Their father Quarmal, wishes the infant son of his favorite consort to succeed him, but muses that while a son may kill his father, or a brother his brother, no father may murder his own sons. He then considers the certainty that his elder sons will never allow his youngest to reach maturity. If one simply melds Gwaay into his father, you have a staggeringly accurate representation of the Boltons prefigured.

PS. I forgot Gwaay's paleness of complexion and eye color as well. He and his father seem likely to be influences for Roose's character, while Hasjarl seems to be the same for Ramsey. There are far too many close similarities for this to be completely coincidental, a bit like Lavas Laerk and Euron Greyjoy.

P.P.S. And how could I forget, the Lords of Quarmall have a very strong family tradition of skinning people as well.

Edited by Jon Flowers

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Nice quoting, "The Prince" has been mentioned in many threads especially with regard to Lannister style politics. This reminds me that I believe the "High Sparrow" might be based on Girolamo Savonarola.

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I'm not convinced that Martin drew upon it as an influence, but Kipling's "Blue Roses" has a few perhaps coincidental similarities to the whole TOJ storyline.

Also, I like the mentions of Macchiavelli and Savonarolla. Since he is a student of history, I am certain that Martin was not only aware of both of them but likely also drew upon thier acts and teachings for some of his characters as you both say. Very nice catches. In fact, that period in history is so rich with potential material that I feel sure he used the Borgia, Sforza and Medici as inspiration as well. I'd have to give some thought to come up with specifics though.

Edited by Jon Flowers

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Two miller's wives, the one near Winterfell who Theon beds, and the other, Ramsay's mother. Both take the lusty Miller's Wife of Chaucer in very different directions.

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My apologies if someone has already noticed this:

In "The Prince", Chapter 18, Machiavelli states that a ruler should be "a lion to terrify wolves" and that a lion is above the law - and uses force to get what it wants rather than law.

http://www.constitut...ac/prince18.htm

My kind is drawing a blank, but there is a second part to that...and a ____ to something the someones', but I can't remember what. Edit: lazy googled it. Fox. Florent?

Edited by James Arryn

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"... to be a fox to discover the snares and a lion to terrify the wolves" these are the qualities the perfect prince needs, according to Machiavelli, brain and brawn.

The Florents don´t strike me as very clever, at least as far as traps are concerned, but I´ve thought of the tale of the scorpion and the fox, which I think is referenced a couple of times. Oberyn´s tales about scorpions and House Qorgyle connect Dorne to scorpions and there is the scorpion- (dragon) tale of the manticore that will sting you, even if it means their own destruction, just because it´s their nature. A fox´s logic doesn´t seem to be well paired with (magical / religious) fanatism.

ETA: KOM, but in the Canterbury Tales it´s a miller telling a tale about a carpenter´s wife or do you think of another tale? Anyway the fate of the wife´s lover (Nicholas) is reminiscent of Theon´s fate.

"The furious suitor thrusts the coulter "amidde the ers" (between the cheeks) burning Nicholas' "toute" (anus) and the skin "a hands-breadth round about"."

ETA II: Jon Flowers, blue roses seem to be a very general symbol of rare / unobtainable love. In the poem the love died because the loved one asks for too much. Did Lyanna do that?

There also is a blue winter rose in real life.

Several legends surround the hellebore; in witchcraft it is believed to have ties to summoning demons.

Helleborus niger is commonly called the Christmas rose, due to an old legend that it sprouted in the snow from the tears of a young girl who had no gift to give the Christ child in Bethlehem.

In Greek mythology, Melampus of Pylos used hellebore to save the daughters of the king of Argos from a madness, induced by Dionysus, that caused them to run naked through the city, crying, weeping, and screaming.

During the Siege of Kirrha in 585 BC, hellebore was reportedly used by the Greek besiegers to poison the city's water supply. The defenders were subsequently so weakened by diarrhea that they were unable to defend the city from assault. An overdose of medication containing hellebore has been suggested as a possible cause of the death of Alexander the Great.

Wiki.

The hellebore is closely related to the anemone, I wonder if there is a connection to Patchface´s "nennymoans"?

"It is always summer under the sea," he intoned. "The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."
Prologue, Clash. Edited by Lykos

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Posters commonly associate Khal Drogo's name with Frodo's dad in LotR. However, considering the passive nature of Hobbitts I think it is more likely that Khal Drogo's name is a play on the term "droogs" from a Clockwork Orange. The droogs were a wandering gang of youths regularly engaging in "orgies of opportunistic, random ultraviolence" including rape and destruction.

ETA: On a related note A Clockwork Orange relies on the use of an unreliable narrator to tell its story. As we know, GRRM uses many unreliable narrators to tell the story of ASOIAF.

Edited by Howling Mad

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Jon Flowers, that´s what I gathered. :laugh: I liked your post it inspired me and made me bring up some qustions, that´s all. :)

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Thanks. I was just looking up a line from "The Buddha of Kamakura" (which is beautifull by the way), found it by chance and was struck by the coincidences there. I thought about the crown that Lyanna recieved from Rhaegar that Robert metaphorically could not match, as well as what Ned promised her. I heard their voices in it, although I am near certain that Martin was never a Kipling fan. Just food for thought. Thank you for the responce. I must try not to be so prickly.

Edited by Jon Flowers

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If House Willum is a tribute to writer Tad Williams, then House Cordwayner is possibly a reference to Cordwainer Smith the science fiction writer who may have influenced Martin’s early science fiction work such as The Dying of the Light. Its Cordwayner of Hammerhal, Hammerhal sounds a bit smith-like...

In the case of Willum though, there is an extra hint in the house Coat of arms, which relates to William’s trilogy. The Corwayner coat of arms has a pair of boots which is what cordwainer’s did – make boots and shoes. If Cordwainer Smith has a character with a lovely pair of magic black boots anywhere in his stories, I'd like to know.

http://awoiaf.wester...hp/House_Willum

http://awoiaf.wester...ouse_Cordwayner

http://en.wikipedia....ordwainer_Smith

Edited by Castellan

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remember the TV show Twin Peaks? there were minor characters, the Martell family (I think it was just a husband and wife, don't remember). Could be a coincidence...

I read this and was immediately dismissive of a deliberate connection, but then I remembered that Pete Martell married into the most powerful family in town- the Packards, who owned the sawmill and most of the important real estate in and around Twin Peaks, including Ghostwood Forest. There's a tenuous similarity in that the Martells of Dorne were the only kingdom to marry into Aegon's empire rather than be conquered by sword and dragon.

That got me thinking about other similarities between ASOIAF and Twin Peaks:

Warging // BOB's ability to possess birds and other people

Tyrion the Imp // The Man From Another Place- better known as the dancing midget

Arya's genderbending // Dennis/Denise- David Duchovny's character

The circle of weirwoods near the Wall // Glastonbury Grove- the circle of sycamore trees that serve as the portal to:

The House of Black and White // The Waiting Room or The Black Lodge

all speculative and probably coincidental, but enough for my brain to chew on that I shan't be getting any sleep now...

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