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References and Homages

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Plus Fuchsia's nanny, though it's not actually stated, just heavily hinted at different points in the text. Yes, I'd picked the same thing up myself. Perhaps later on, in Ice and Fire, we'll be treated to a scene where Littlefinger gets chased by soldiers across a series of flooded buildings, before Sansa jumps down from the battlements and stabs him through the chest.

Edited by The Killer Snark

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The U.S. Declaration of Independence states in part: "to assume among the powers of the earth". This reminded me of COTF's name for themselves: "those who sing the song of the earth."

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I wasn't attempting a joke... Anyhoo, the seven striped version became standard as a symbol purely of the gay community....

It was ignorant. If I want stereotypes, I can talk to my father.

You are also wrong about part B. Revolutionary China used a rainbow flag during the rebellion against the Qing Dynasty, in order to represent racial and religious inclusiveness. In Chile/Peru/Bolivia the Aymara indians and many other groups use a rainbow flag. I think it has both religious meaning and racial inclusiveness as its point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Races_Under_One_Union

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I think the English word "stark" is more relevant, meaning grim, harsh, blunt. No frills, no smoke and mirrors.

That definition would definitely fit the old-timey Starks and the offshoot Karstarks. Hardass mofos.

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Kushluk - It wasn't ignorant. I'm simply not up to the mark enough with world culture. I already admitted that. I don't see a problem.

Re: The name Stark, it's purely representative of the nature of the family, like Greyjoy, who can't take too much pleasure from their moments of triumph, because they are totally hapless, hence 'grey joy.' The names of some of the characters and families are the big spanner in the works regarding my stance on The Common Tongue not being English, btw.

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Perhaps a little abstract but:

King Robert wanted to see all Targaryens dead, he had a Targaryen grandmother

Adolf Hitler wanted to see all Jews dead, he had a Jewish grandmother

I'm not saying that Robert was as bad as Hitler but there certainly are parallels to be made.

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Unless they both had the same facial hair, and had a similar barber, and both had a penchant for killing boars.

Edited by The Killer Snark

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Duke William is a very good parallel for Lord Tywin. Both were brilliant, predatory, rutheless and ultimately successful until their undignified deaths. William knew how to turn a situation to his advantage as well, such as the episodes where he put on his hauberk backwards and when he supposedly stumbled, debarking from his ship during his invasion of England. And most remeniscent of Tywin, was his massacre of the town that mocked his bastardry by hanging uncured hides fron their walls (the name of it escapes me, but his mother was the daughter of a tanner). Add to all of that his attention to detail, with regards to administration, as evidenced by the Domesday Book and you've go a very strong likeness between the two character. Good observation, although, short of a similar death, most of the "great men" of any period in question are likely to be Tywin clones. They always seem to find their way to the top of the pile somehow. Such is life.

I wasn't intending any general parallel just the illness, death and funeral but now that I think about it..

Further resemblance between William the Conqueror and Tywin

1.his love and affection for his wife Matilda was considered unusual in an era of dynastic marriages

2. his three children, problem of an heir, and a resemblance between his son Henry I and Tyrion

It’s a long story and I'll probably get it wrong but Henry the youngest of William I’s three sons alive when William died, had never been given any titles or land and had apparently been intended for the Church. William I left Normandy to Robert and England to William. Robert thought he should get both. Henry was to get nothing but he lobbied his father on his deathbed to give him money and as soon as William died, bolted to the Treasury to withdraw it. Over the following years William and Robert were periodically at war. William I was a strong ruler but Robert seems to have been hopeless. Henry was able to use his money to buy titles and land in Western Normandy after Robert had run out of funds. This became his power base. Ultimately, when William I was killed in a hunting accident, Henry declared himself King of England. Robert kept attempting to take England until he was captured and imprisoned by Henry for life. Henry then had England and most of Normandy I think. Later, Robert’s son made similar attempts with the backing of various powers until he was killed in battle. As well as this business of having to plot against your own family and being thrown in prison by them (William and Robert were united in distrust for Henry) there are other aspects of his character that are like Tyrion’s:

1. He was dubbed Beauclerk by later historians because he was literate. The extent of his education is debated, but it used to be thought that he was intended for the Church and thus would have been taught Latin and got a general education. I think at one stage Tyrion relates his reading habits to having considered becoming a Septon.

2. He has been admired as a good administrator who reformed the laws and who used the law to make England very safe from outlaws and robbers etc. – just as Tyrion is good with the drains and the accounts and being the Hand.

3. He was notoriously promiscuous from a young age. He ended up with a large number of acknowledged bastards, both high and low born. A novel I read had him when young pick up and keep as mistress a woman like Shae – daughter of an Innkeeper or grocer – I don’t know if this was based on fact.

4. He made a very astute marriage to a granddaughter of the King of Scotland who also was related to key defeated Anglo-Saxon leaders.

5. He was called the Lion of Justice by one chronicler and this reputation continues but he was quite harsh in applying it and so some consider him cruel. Sounds a bit like Tyrion’s mixed character in ADWD.

Edited by Castellan

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William was known for great rages, though...periods when even close friends, such as he had, were reluctant to be near him for fear of his unpredictability. He also famously (and allegedly) expressed great remorse for his conquest and body count later in life. You get the sense of someone far more mercurial than Tyin, though there are many similarities.

One odd twist...Robert Curthose, the son he couldn't stand, is a closer parallel to Jaime than Rufus or Henry were...famed warrior, glory seeker, rash, defiant of his father's wishes for him, generally msnipulated by his more cerebral siblings, etc.

if you consider homosexuality an equivalently controversial equiv. of dwarfism ( I don't) his favourite son could be seen as Tyrion ( though Henry woks therein other ways).

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I'm not completely sure if this is a reference or an homage, but maybe more of an inspiration. Just as Braavos is incredibly influenced by Lieber's Lankhmar, I think the character of Arya is influenced by Lieber's Grey Mouser. Both were apprentices who had their master killed by Royal soldiers. Both were heavily influenced by revenge. The Grey Mouser name as an apprentice was Mouse, he then later became the Grey Mouser (i.e. cat). Arya was a mouse in Harrenhall and then became the cat of the canals. Grey Mouser had blade he called Scalpel, while Arya had a blade called Needle.

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Re Tywin/William - I had seen Cersei as more like Robert just because of birth order and incompetence and Jaime as faintly like William because William was a homosexual warrior type (based on my limited knowledge). Jaime is not homosexual but he has dedicated himself to a military organisation and given up marriage for it. But I don't see much in this - its mainly Henry I 's amazing sustained bid for power and the fact that he was excluded so thoroughly to start with. The totally competent father and the less competent trio of kids with the underdog winning out.

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Yeah, though Robert again did go on Crusade, like an Order, so I still see more there, but the Cersei point is an interesting take.

Rufus probably was gay, but it probably wasn't as big of a deal at the time as it would be in the hands of later historians, from what I understand.

Edited by James Arryn

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The Killing of Rhaegar's family and the "hidden away" heir, Aegon

reminds me of the Romanovs and Anastasia just a bit

The graves of the Romanovs were found and all of them were accounted for. Anastasia was killed with the rest of her family in 1918 and there were no survivors. The women who later appeared and claimed to be Anastasia were all frauds.

Re: Tywin's smelly corpse. The body of Pope Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia) was also reported to have been bloated, discolored and rotting, though that was due to being left unburied for too long.

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Astounding discovery of how a popular TV show got its name from ASOIAF (this is a "reverse reference" though):

That might take a bit of time; even the bravest would be dismayed after watching a thousand or so of his fellows consumed by wildfire. Hallyne said that sometimes the substance burned so hot that flesh melted like tallow. Yet even so...

Tyrion had no illusions where his own men were concerned. If the battle looks to be going sour they’ll break, and they’ll break bad, Jacelyn Bywater had warned him, so the only way to win was to make certain the battle stayed sweet, start to finish.

Edited by thenedstark

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Its probably already been mentioned, but just in case it hasn't...

the many, many references to Imperial China. A Great Wall keeping the country safe, a Forbidden City style Red Keep, a royal/imperial guard that do not marry, even a eunuch courtier

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In the second Dunk and Egg tale, The Sworn Sword, there is confirmation of the various references I've found to Frank Herbert's Dune books. When Dunk remembers Dorne, in a dream, he recalls being told not to waste water in the desert, by weeping over his dead horse, in language almost identical to that the Fremen use when telling Paul that they won't 'waste water on the dead'.

Edited by The Killer Snark

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