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Yeah, that's what I thought. Looking at that family tree more closely actually boggles the mind. I wonder what the Targaryens' would look like. Probably a very similar shape.


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Are they the ones who ended up with such an overbite they couldn't eat normally?

It's a bizarre situation, I feel that if they weren't royalty natural selection would knock them off.

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A lot of them suffered from prognathous jaws so long that they were actually deformed, sometimes with malformed tongues, so that not only could a few of them not close their mouths, but they also found it hard to talk properly. Common among them were oversized foreheads as well. The jaw thing was popularly known as 'Habsburg lip'.


Edited by The Killer Snark

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I mean, by that stage, they couldn't possibly have thought that they themselves were a desirable match!


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I mean, by that stage, they couldn't possibly have thought that they themselves were a desirable match!

It had a lot more to do with politics than with desirability. And as mr. Snark pointed out, the politics of the day had significantly narrowed the pool of perspective matches (due to religious and political concerns) to the point where they would have to either marry below their station, marry in such a way as to give political advantage to their enemies, or continue with that terribly narrow family tree of theirs. Besides, by that point, power was often in the hands of high officials rather than the monarch in question and as such, consolidation of power was a far greater concern than providing the "ruling" monarch with a good match who provided the prospect of healthy offspring. So, long live the under-slung jaw and feeble wits of the later Habsburg emperors.

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And the last few of those Emperors were political puppets anyway, so everyone was happy until the family line dropped off. I wish I knew who to credit with the TV Tropes and Idioms excerpts I used to fill up my first post. Anyway, back in their heyday, the unique Habsburg appearance due to association with power was quite fashionable for a while, a case you might call it of the 'Emperor's new clothes'. Does anyone else think that the appearance of the Freys might actually be down to family inbreeding? I'd kind of assumed that via some telling correlations in their sprawling family tree.


Edited by The Killer Snark

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Apparently the idea of a bleeding tree that is or contains a person was around in classical literature thence into renaissance literature.

Also I assume the weir in weir wood is weird not weir, a dam. Weird means supernatural, uncanny, fey, and apparently as a noun refers to a person's destiny.

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Does anyone else think that the appearance of the Freys might actually be down to family inbreeding? I'd kind of assumed that via some telling correlations in their sprawling family tree.

I just took it as part of the symbolism of Freys as numerous fast breeding vicious weasels and stoats. The chinless look gives the triangular face of the weasel.

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I reckon both, regarding the use of 'weir' in 'weirwood'. A weir (meaning dam) retains and diverts water, just as the trees retain the thoughts of the forest, and divert them via telepathic intercourse.


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regarding the use of 'weir' in 'weirwood'. A weir (meaning dam) retains and diverts water, just as the trees retain the thoughts of the forest, and divert them via telepathic intercourse.

This is cool. :thumbsup:

Edited by Arya kiddin'

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Thank you. Actually, I picked up on 'weir', meaning 'weird' first; I think it's an old Scottish word. I'm Scottish; it's probably still used way up north.


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Thank you. Actually, I picked up on 'weir', meaning 'weird' first; I think it's an old Scottish word. I'm Scottish; it's probably still used way up north.

I agree with this. Weirwoods are not supernatural beings as the gods generally are expected to be. They have the collected knowledge of the past is what I think makes them sacred. It's a nice thought. :)

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In JonCo's last POV in aDwD he says "Ten days. No longer. It will take that long to prepare. On the morning of the eleventh day, we ride for Storm's End."

Maybe it's just me, but his proclaimation reminds me of what Theoden says as he is marshalling the strength of the Rohirrim before they go to the aid of Gondor.

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Getting back again to LotR, the relationship between the ancient Elves and the Ents is very similar to that between the children of the forest and the weirwoods, IMO.


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Getting back again to LotR, the relationship between the ancient Elves and the Ents is very similar to that between the children of the forest and the weirwoods, IMO.

I can see that. They certainly do capture that same sense of timelessness. As to the relationship dynamic though, I don't know for sure. I would definitely like to learn more about the Children and the Weirwoods, in the time before the Firstmen arrived. You may well be spot on and the Ents could have been his inspiration to begin with.

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I get the sense that the Children may have tapped into and used the 'consciousness' of the weirwoods in a very similar way the Elves awoke the sentience of the Ents. Martin plans to write an encyclopedia for the series (hopefully not now - George, just finish the damn thing!), so maybe this will be clarified.


Edited by The Killer Snark

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Queen Elizabeth I of England, the virgin queen, I believe inspired Lysa and Robery Dudley inspired LF. It is rumoured that Robert Dudley and the queen were lovers.

There's a few parallels.

Elizabeth is believed to have dubbed Robert Dudley her "Sweet Robin". Lysa's virginity, or lack thereof was a matter of consideration to interested parties and a secret well hidden, of course the question of if Elizabeth really was a virgin remains a mystery and topic of interest. Elizabeth's fawning over Dudley bares similarities to Lysa's of LF. There were rumours Elizabeth had Dudley's child in secret. Dudley has been often represented as a master courtier and the master schemer of Elizabeth's court. Dudley's first wife died after she fell down a staircase, but it was widely rumoured he pushed her (or more believably had it arranged), much like the moon door.

Elizabeth famously said "Tell the queen of Scots that I am older than she is; and when people arrive at my age, they take all they can get with both hands, and only give with their little finger."

Sansa may yet become queen, a virgin queen very possibly, giving the Sweet Robin reference another angle.

About the Lysa/Elizabeth and LF/Dudley comparisons: The Tullys, like the Tudors, were three in number--Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure versus Mary, Elizabeth and Edward. Of course, unlike Mary, Catelyn had quite a few kids and married young; Lysa was the one who had problems conceiving. And Edward, unlike Edmure, died at the age of fifteen/sixteen.

Again, Lysa, like the older Elizabeth, was very jealous of younger, more beautiful women. She dismissed Lettice Knollys, Dowager Countess of Essex, from court, because Lettice married Robert, whom Elizabeth refused to marry. And Lettice was the older daughter of Catherine, Elizabeth's cousin by her aunt Mary Boleyn. Elizabeth was also known to object to the marriages of her young ladies in waiting to courtiers--she did not welcome Raleigh's marriage. Robert Devereaux, Earl of Essex (Dudley's stepson), of whom Elizabeth was enamored in her later years, had affairs with several ladies in waiting, all of which Elizabeth objected to vociferously.

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I get the sense that the Children may have tapped into and used the 'consciousness' of the weirwoods in a very similar way the Elves awoke the sentience of the Ents. Martin plans to write an encycolpedia for the series (hopefully not now - George, just finish the damn thing!), so many this will be clarified.

That's one of my favorite things about Tolkein. Talk about intricate world design... I have never seen a fantasy setting with that much detail. His indices have such a wealth of useful information.

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Probably already been posted, but Neds line to Cersei in AGoT



You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once.


Smacks of Michelle Dubois' line from the BBC show 'Allo 'Allo:



'Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.' [in an exaggerated French accent]


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I don't know if this has been said or not, but the wildling hornfoot tribe instantly struck me as being hobbit-like, mainly due to the fact that both groups have very hard leathery feet and do not wear shoes. I also compare the crannogmen to tolkiens hobbits due to their short stature, shyness of other people, isolation and skillfulness in stealth.

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