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References and Homages

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Don't know if this has been pointed out before (if so, stop me. I looked through a few pages and found nothing), but I picked up on two possible Macbeth references/homages (well, three now that I think of it.)



-Cersei is very similar to Lady Macbeth, what with her wishing she was a man/being power hungry. That's pretty obvious though, thus the "third, now that I think of it"



-The Mountain "dashed Aegon's brains out on a wall" (paraphrasing), the wording is very similar to Lady Macbeth's soliloquy in which she would be willing to dash out her baby's head against a wall in exchange for power/unsexing (this if off the top of my head, I'll have to dig up a copy and edit in the actual line).



-The Hound supposedly cut Mycah from the shoulder down to his belly button, and in the opening scenes of Macbeth, Macbeth is attributed to have "unseam'd him from the nave to the chops"



Just a few things that I noted which may or may not be references. Again, sorry if it's been said before.


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I noticed that myself. One thing that stands out is Lady Macbeth's attempts to make her husband look like a weakling when he feels so much guilt over the murder he evidently isn't sleeping with her. Very Cersei. I'm quoting from memory, but a line she has runs something like, "...this strange and self-abuse, is th' initiate fear which wants hard use." It means that Macbeth's self abuse, meaning guilt, is the fear of the novice murderer which gets dulled by further 'necessary' killing. It's also a rather dry piece of innuendo. She implies that he masturbates instead of sleeping with her, 'self abuse', this being akin to the fear of a virgin faced by a woman; the situation 'wants hard use'(of her) in order to satisfy needs he isn't fulfilling because of his guilt. Very Cersei, IMO.


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The punishment for the group of NW deserters (including a son of Lord Ryswell) who were recaptured - being encased upright and frozen in ice cells where they remain as sentinels forever - is the punishment reserved for people who betray their liege lords in Dante's Inferno.



The ninth circle of hell is for those who committed treachery and in it sinners are encased in ice. Within the ninth cycle, there are four degrees (rounds/rings) of treachery, with betrayal of liege lords being the worst (they are the sinners placed closest to Satan who is imprisoned at the cent of the earth). They are fully encased, whereas some of the other rounds have the heads or faces free of the ice.



For example, those who betrayed their guests are at round three, lying supine with their faces free of the ice.

Edited by Castellan

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Just a little Fun-Fact about the origins of some of the names in aSoIaF...

While reading Dreamsongs Vol I, I've notice that GRRM gets many of his names of Gods, characters, castles, lands and other, from his previous work, be them published or not.

George's first work of fantasy writing (besides turtle castle when he was just a child) was "Dark Gods of Kor-Yuban". This story is one for GRRMs "lost stories" because he never wrote it on carbon paper. Two of the main heroes in DGoKY have name that are used in aSoIaF...

R'hllor of Raugg a melancholy exile prince

Argilac the Arrogant who was boisterous and swaggering companion.

In the end Argilac is eaten by a dark god due to his tragic flaw of arrogance, meanwhile R'hllor escaped to fight another day and tell the tale.

In aSoIaF, we all know R'hllor is The Lord of Light, basically a very powerful deity, who seem to have the most physical interaction with human kind. Argilac was the last of his house(Durrendon) to rule StormsEnd. Before Aegon the Conquerer best friend and half brother Orys Baratheon claimed the seat, sigil, words and lands.

If you can use this information as some kind of foreshadowing device, feel free. Hopefully it will help some create a cool theory and predict something in the upcoming tWoW or the World Book.

Thanks for your time, KtK :)

Edited by Kennedy the Keen

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Surprised no ones mentioned this reference from ADWD:


"The galley was also where the ship's books were kept... the fourth and final volume of The Life of the Triarch Belicho, a famous Volantene patriot whose unbroken succession of conquests and triumphs ended rather abruptly when he was eaten by giants."



This is a football reference to the 2007 New England Patriots, who set an NFL record 18 straight wins (succession of conquests and triumphs) under head coach Bill Belichick (Belicho) before losing to GRRM's hometown team the New York Giants in the super bowl. As a Patriots fan I am ashamed I didnt realize this reference instantly. Love how GRRM sneaks in these little references so well without breaking the immersion.


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Surprised no ones mentioned this reference from ADWD:

"The galley was also where the ship's books were kept... the fourth and final volume of The Life of the Triarch Belicho, a famous Volantene patriot whose unbroken succession of conquests and triumphs ended rather abruptly when he was eaten by giants."

This is a football reference to the 2007 New England Patriots, who set an NFL record 18 straight wins (succession of conquests and triumphs) under head coach Bill Belichick (Belicho) before losing to GRRM's hometown team the New York Giants in the super bowl. As a Patriots fan I am ashamed I didnt realize this reference instantly. Love how GRRM sneaks in these little references so well without breaking the immersion.

Wow I missed this too! What an awesome first post, Bohemund. Welcome.

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Alester and Davos in jail in ASOS remind me of Joseph and the other servants in jail in Genesis 40...and similarly Joseph becomes in effect the king's hand.

That is a nice one. The Pharaoh puts his signet on Joseph's finger and gives him a new name while Stannis gave Davos a new title, Lord of the Rainwood. One of the prisoners Joseph was with was executed just as Alester Florent was.

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Oberyn and Mountain = Jörmungandr and Thor during Ragnarök


Thor slays the giant serpent/snake but can only move eight more steps before he drowns/dies of Jörmungandr's poison.


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"Aerys the Mad in his later years is very reminiscent of Howard Hughes in the same period of his life, including not having his hair cut or nails trimmed."



Where in the books does the Madking have a "clean" phobia?


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Howard Hughes had a clean phobia was reclusive to the pint of being a hermit. But he was not violent. So he was the model for the MadKing because he let his fingernails and hair grow long? Talk about superficial comparisons.


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Cubary, no one claimed that Aerys II was Howard Hughes.


Admittedly Light a wight to night would have been more precise had he said "Aerys´ later appearance is reminiscent of Howard Hughes, but there is also the fact that Aerys´ behavior fits some forms of OCD that Howard suffered from. Only instead of sorting peas like Howard, Aerys became cruel and fire-obsessed.


This is a references and homages thread not a who or what is modelled to a T after someone in real life or other works of fiction. (Mister Burns shows clearly violent behaviour by pulling a gun on Smithers and he is definitely a reference to Howard as the "Spruce Moose" prooves)


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Its Cubarey with an "e" :drool: as in :bowdown: King of Cuba




And I just do not see the resemblence, long hair and fingernails Hughes was never thought to be truly mad. Aerys also physically resembles several Indian Yogi's but I am not claiming GRRM used them as a model or reference, nor that he was giving homage to them. I could say that the MadKing resembles Hitler in several ways too, but I would not claim that GRRM was using Hitler(paranoid, suffered from OCD, willing if not eager to see all his people killed, removed close advisors because they failed to achive his impossible goals or simply because he thought they were becoming too well like , twitching, possibly into incest, and did I mention reasonably sane at the beginning but totally freaking badshit crazy at the end) as the model or giving him hommage. Like I said a superficial physical resemblance is what's in common between Aerys and Hughes, Hitler would seem to share more relevant traits and I am not claiming that GRRM was thinking of him when he developed Aery' character.


Edited by Cubarey

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Since we are on Aerys I will point out again that he is named for Ares the ignoble Greek god of war.

This Ares was even held captive by giants. I don't know if it worsened his character or if he was bad from the start.

He wasn't unkempt, though, generally seen as a huge and frightening warrior.

Character name of the day ---Aerys-- similar to 'Ares'

The etymology of the name Ares .... "bane, ruin, curse, imprecation".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares

Ares was the Greek God of warlike frenzy and violence. Some snips:

Ares, in Greek myth the only son of Zeus and his wife Hera is the god of war or, rather, of warlike frenzy. He is of no great importance in mythology, although he is one of the twelve Olympian gods, and plays no very glorious part in the stories in which he appears. He is a stirrer of strife, unchivalrous, and does not always have the advantage in encounters with mortals….; nor does he ever develop into a god with a moral function, like Zeus or Apollo. ……
(Oxford Companion to Classicla Literaure, quoted in Answers.com)

Ares is a war god and god of violence in Greek mythology. He was not well-liked or trusted by the ancient Greeks and there are few tales in which he plays a major role. Cults of Ares are found mainly in Crete and the Peloponnese where the militaristic Spartans honored him. Athena is also a war goddess, but was well-respected, as a polis protector and goddess of strategy instead of Ares' forte, mayhem and destruction. Ares had unsavory companions like Phobos ("Fear") and Deimos ("Terror"), Eris ("Strife") and Enyo ("Horror").
http://ancienthistor...yth1/p/Ares.htm

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Aerys the Mad in his later years is very reminiscent of Howard Hughes in the same period of his life, including not having his hair cut or nails trimmed.

And being fearful of leaving his home.

Aerys may not be exactly like Hughes but the few things they have in common are things that are distinctly remembered about Hughes. Hughes is probably a more likely influence than some random Indian Yogi.

Just for fun:

Hughes had a phobia of germs, Aerys had a phobia of blades.

Hughes collected jars of urine, Aerys collected pots of wildfire.

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Plus Howard Hughes had obsessive compulsive disorder, which approached a psychotic degree of neurosis because there was no understanding at his time period so much as there is now of the affliction, so there was no adequate counselling available or treatment, unless you were fond of electric shocks. He was mentally ill, but sane. Aerys, however was completely batshit crazy, so the analogy is not apt.


Edited by The Killer Snark

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