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The beast without a heart could be the horse sacrificed so that Dany could eat his heart?


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-snip-

No worries: although as one more formatting suggestion I'd recommend fewer spaces between the lines. Your post is a solid two screens tall :)

First stanza! Clearly describing KL at the end of AFFC:

Priest sacrifices/beast has no heart = Qyburn works his art, turns Gregor into a heartless, undead beast

Lioness whelped in the streets = You could say Cersei gave birth "outside the home" when she mothered bastards, or you could say she was reborn in the streets on her WOS. Pick whichever one you think fits better.

hooting owl = the only owl in the capitol died years ago soooo white raven announcing that it's noon i.e., the sun starts slowly setting now i.e., winter is coming! Wow these are a lot harder...

Second stanza is all about Victarion, who is Euron's slave, and his fancy new hand.

Third stanza, and you get to pick again. Either Jamie learning to reign in his hostility to the world like he does in AFFC, or Cersei showing she's all sizzle and no steak.

Fourth stanza: And now we're back at the Blackwater, with Sansa and Cersei and all the WAGs in the Red Keep huddled together, imagining Stannis' soldiers (under their flaming banner) breaking through the gate and running through the streets

Since these aren't really references or homages, maybe this should be it's own thread? Because I think we've invented sort of an awesome game here.

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No worries: although as one more formatting suggestion I'd recommend fewer spaces between the lines. Your post is a solid two screens tall :)

First stanza! Clearly describing KL at the end of AFFC:

Priest sacrifices/beast has no heart = Qyburn works his art, turns Gregor into a heartless, undead beast

Lioness whelped in the streets = You could say Cersei gave birth "outside the home" when she mothered bastards, or you could say she was reborn in the streets on her WOS. Pick whichever one you think fits better.

hooting owl = the only owl in the capitol died years ago soooo white raven announcing that it's noon i.e., the sun starts slowly setting now i.e., winter is coming! Wow these are a lot harder...

Second stanza is all about Victarion, who is Euron's slave, and his fancy new hand.

Third stanza, and you get to pick again. Either Jamie learning to reign in his hostility to the world like he does in AFFC, or Cersei showing she's all sizzle and no steak.

Fourth stanza: And now we're back at the Blackwater, with Sansa and Cersei and all the WAGs in the Red Keep huddled together, imagining Stannis' soldiers (under their flaming banner) breaking through the gate and running through the streets

Since these aren't really references or homages, maybe this should be it's own thread? Because I think we've invented sort of an awesome game here.

You'd know, little mouse! Wasn't Algernon running a maze? Thank you for the advice about the spacing. For some reason, it does that - and then it is impossible for me to go in and backspace to level text.

Here's the thread - not one response:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/132369-phenomenon-on-the-eve-of-the-ides-of-march-and-before-the-ides-of-marsh/

and here

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/95566-shakespeares-julius-caesar-in-martins-asoiaf/#entry7176650

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Could Cersei's maid Dorcas be a reference to The Book of the New Sun? The name does exist in history, but was also the name of the female companion of Severian the hero of the Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe (where she most often refered to as Cas).

I instantly thought of Dorcas (eta: one out of the three secretaries of Jubal Harshaw) in Stranger in a Strange Land, a science fiction classic by Robert A. Heinlein.

Edited by Jon Weirgaryen

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Not sure if it has been mentioned already, pretty sure it has, and also not sure in which book the passage is.



Once there is a line about woods witches, one of the characters thinks or says something along the lines "a woods witch? they are not magical, but know their way with herbs and tend to the people when they come into this world and when they leave it"



It is a direct reference to Terry Pratchetts witches in his discworld novels, probably particularly to Esme "granny" Weatherwax



I think the text passage also includes that these witches "magic" mainly comes from psychology, meaning that they impress simple minded people with perfectly natural means and are therefor taken magical, which is also a concurring theme with Terry Pratchetts portrayal of his witches.


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Oh my, in Dance chapter 25 "The Windblown", Quentyn Martell's comrade (eta - see correction by @Jon Flowers, thanks! below - Ser Gerris Drinkwater) the Big Man Archibald Yronwood gets nicknamed Ser Greenguts. Only on my second re-read a tiny bell startet ringing in my mind: Harry Potter, Gringotts (Wizarding Bank).

Edited by Jon Weirgaryen

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Wrong companion.  Gerris was "Dornish Gerold" if memory serves.  You mean the Big Man, Arch.

Edited by Jon Flowers

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I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Amon's advice to Jon, "Kill the boy and let the man be born", is eerily similary to Capt. Richard H. Pratt's "Kill the Indian and save the man". 

 

It may just be a coincidence.

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I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Amon's advice to Jon, "Kill the boy and let the man be born", is eerily similary to Capt. Richard H. Pratt's "Kill the Indian and save the man". 

 

It may just be a coincidence.

 

Who is Richard H. Pratt?? and is the Indian and the man are the same person in the context of the quote?

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Shadrich, Richard H. Pratt has founded and ran the first boarding school for native americans ( the Carlisle institute), where they were forcefully assimilated into the christian anglo-american society. So in context, the quote is saying that indian culture has to be killed by the US government in orde to save the indian individuals.

 

I think that's a very good find, BettyCrocker.  I think Martin is very interested in native american culture, and given that Jon is about to integrate the wildlings into the realm (though in a different way) the quote might have been on his mind.

 

Also, I like that it gives Amon's quote a different twist, since I don't completely agree with it.  It's just so easy to go too far and kill not only the boy, but the whole human and become a monster or perish in the attempt, as Egg did at Summerhall when he tried to hatch dragons.

 

When listening to this story about a native american dying while his mouth has been washed out with soap for speaking his native language instead of english reminded me of Randyll Tarly's sentence of a whore. "Wash out her private parts with lye and throw her in a dungeon,"

Edited by Lykos

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I was looking at the discography of Marillion and it seems they have a lot of song and album titles that seem very relevant to the ASoIaF series...

Seasons End - obvious

Afraid of Sunlight  - Others/Cave CotF

 

Script for a Jester's Tear - multiple sad jesters

 

Freaks - it rhymes with reek!

Man of a Thousand Faces  - Faceless men

 

Alone in the Lap of Luxury - numerous lonely rich characters

 

Sugar Mice - the Rat Cook!

 

Cover my Eyes (Pain and Heaven) - Oberyn/Marillion

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Looking closely, Tom saw that the youngster was dipping a rag into a pail of milk - goat's milk, presumably - and then putting the sodden corner of the rag into the baby's mouth. That was ingenious.
-Ken Follett in Pillars of the Earth

Robb rushed into the silence he left. "I will nurse him myself, Father," he promised. "I will soak a towel with warm milk, and give hum suck from that."
-GRRM in A Game of Thrones

Rickon needs you," Robb said sharply. "He's only three, he doesn't understand what's happening. He thinks everyone has deserted him, so he follows me around all day, clutching my leg and crying. I don't know what to do with him."
-GRRM in A Game of Thrones

Every family had lost at least one member: a child, a mother, a husband, a sister. The people wore no badges of mourning but the lines of their faces showed grief as starkly as bare trees show winter. One of the worst hit was six-year-old Jonathan. He moped about the priory close like a lost soul, and eventually Philip realized he was missing Tom, who had, it seemed, spent more time with the boy than anyone had noticed.
-Ken Follett in Pillars of the Earth
Edited by slant

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Who is Richard H. Pratt?? and is the Indian and the man are the same person in the context of the quote?

 

He was a hard core assimilationist when it came ot Native Americans in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century. His plan was to assimilate Native Americans into 'white' society through education. The rationale behind was this was "We [Americans] make our greatest mistake in feeding our civilisation to the Indians instead of feeding the Inidians to our civilisation". Which just makes ya feel all warm inside, doesn't it? *she said sarcastically*

 

Basically, his idea was to feed Aboriginal children through a White, Christian schooling system, separate them from their families, language, culture, ect. in order to "Kill the Indian". And, he hoped, by raising them in a White, Christian schooling system, they would be able to "Save the Man", since the Adult Native American was beyond saving.

 

But we know how that turned out.

 

So, yes, they are the same person(s).

 

 

Lykos, thank you. I've recently been reading about Aboriginal history in North America and this quote stood out like a sore thumb. I also don't whole heartedly agree with Aemon's advice. But if it is in reference to this quote, then I feel like maybe the seemingly "good" advice will ultimately lead to more suffering than anyone bargained for. (If it hasn't already happened yet)

Edited by BettyCrocker

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In many cities and towns in the Southwest, there is an "Indian School Road" (or Trail, or Avenue, etc.).  Those are referring to the system that Pratt started.

Although, to play devil's advocate, the descendants of the children put through the Indian school system are, on average, doing much better financially than the natives who are part of the reservation system…but many, if not most, aren't even aware of their ancestry and it doesn't turn up until they start digging through old records or get their DNA screened.

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Sometimes the similarities to Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn are so close I feel a bit uncomfortable.  They go beyond plunging into common source material.  George really does owe so much of the fantasy elements in ASOIAF  to Williams.  I know he has said so himself, but I do think if I were Williams I'd have raised more than one eyebrow. The Land of Osten Ard is a place where a mysterious magical winter reigns for three years and threatens to reign forever, an icy prince of faery sends false prophecies to steer the protagonists to their doom, and allow an icy people to return from the dead, a surplus of hidden swords and identities, a secret prince, a people almost identical to the crannogmen, dwarves, direwolves and dragons, northmen and norns, a castle housekeeper called Rachel the Dragon, mother of dragons - I read the books at least 25 years ago but when reading ASOIAF I felt like Memory Thorn was shouting at me from its pages.

 

If Simon at the end had not allowed love to rule his choice instead of righteous anger and justice, the land of Osten Ard would have been doomed.  So it occurred to me to wonder what if Simon had not made the decision at the end that he did.  What would have been the result?

 

The result would have been the Long Night, a winter and darkness meant to last forever, geograpical catastrophes centered around Asua, or the Hayholt, and invasion by the the exiled deadened terrible fay and their ice cold norn cousins. I thought about this for a bit.  I had wondered why Moat Cailin was named as it was - Moat "girl".  I thought about Asua and its Green Angel Tower, and what might be left of it after Ineluki returned, and why not a fallen angel statue with its wings clipped that looked to those who knew no better like a girl. Swamped lands all around it, never recovered from the Long Night.  

 

Who was this Last Hero, I wondered?  Because this implied that there had been other heroes before him trying to end the Long Night.  Could the First Hero have been Simon Snowlock-who failed?

 

Perhaps my imagination has run away with me but what an homage this would be to Mr Williams if George really did springboard from Memory Sorrow with a "what if?".  Although there are a few similarities, the present day politics of Westeros and Essos owe very little to Memory, Sorrow, Thorn.  Song firmly rejects the Christian-like ending of Memory Sorrow and presents a bleaker world picture with very very little love and honour to go around.  The tone is completely dissimilar.  But I think the foundations of its fantastical and mythical history are firmly rooted in Williams' trilogy and not just because of shared source material.

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^going to read that series

 

from the world book

 

 

Many accounts of this war can be found, but the best of them is The Conquest of Dorne, King Daeron’s own account of his campaign, which is rightly considered a marvel of elegant simplicity in both its prose and its strategies.

 

This seems to be the Conquest of Gaul / Civil War commentaries by Julius Caesar

Edited by slant

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"Me, I have the mules. Nettles claims we're kin. It's true we have the same long face, but I'm not near as stubborn. Anyway I never knew their mothers, on my honor."

 

You're not alone, Roose on the Loose.

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Urras 'Ironfoot' Greyiron, first High King of Iron Islands → Dáin II Ironfoot, Lord of Iron Hills and King Under the Mountain ?

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