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That might just be, GRRM coming across a cool old name while researching

 

Also, isn't Donner Germanic for "Thunder?" In my home language, Afrikaans for instance, we call thunder "Donderweer" orThunderweather

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That might just be, GRRM coming across a cool old name while researching

 

Also, isn't Donner Germanic for "Thunder?" In my home language, Afrikaans for instance, we call thunder "Donderweer" orThunderweather

 

Thursday means Thor's Day in reference to Thor. Its German is exactly the same. Donner comes from Donar, Germanic name of Thor.

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The sigil of House Myatt is "a spotted treecat, yellow and black on a mud-brown field." According to Wikipedia (among other references), the treecat is the native sentient species of planet Sphinx, in a series of military science fiction stories written by David Weber.

 

By the way, can unconfirmed homages like that go to a "Behind the scenes" section in the wiki pages?

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While trying to find my thread about the Euron's Golden Drowning theory, as soon as I typed the U after "Euron" my browser filled in EURON URINE COLLECTION PACK. Euron is the name of a company that specializes in medical supplies for the incontinent.

So my explanation for why there is so much talk about drowning, kinslaying, and pissing in that strange AFFC chapter doesn't seem so silly now, huh? I bet GRRM knows an incontinent person, saw that brand name on some urine pads, and thought that would be the perfect name for his evil pirate who is drowned by his brothers piss. I think this also may imply that Euron was the first Greyjoy character he came up with and the other names ending with "on" were chosen to mask the source of Eurons name. He probably never anticipated anyone guessing his theory and googling the characters name, especially as this means he came up with the idea before there even was a Google. In the mid nineties he probably thought only a few people would recognize the name "Euron" and those few who did and read his books would be too embarrassed to admit they knew that.

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While trying to find my thread about the Euron's Golden Drowning theory, as soon as I typed the U after "Euron" my browser filled in EURON URINE COLLECTION PACK. Euron is the name of a company that specializes in medical supplies for the incontinent.



So my explanation for why there is so much talk about drowning, kinslaying, and pissing in that strange AFFC chapter doesn't seem so silly now, huh? I bet GRRM knows an incontinent person, saw that brand name on some urine pads, and thought that would be the perfect name for his evil pirate who is drowned by his brothers piss. I think this also may imply that Euron was the first Greyjoy character he came up with and the other names ending with "on" were chosen to mask the source of Eurons name. He probably never anticipated anyone guessing his theory and googling the characters name, especially as this means he came up with the idea before there even was a Google. In the mid nineties he probably thought only a few people would recognize the name "Euron" and those few who did and read his books would be too embarrassed to admit they knew that.

Can you please post spoiler tags next time you post a theory like that? 

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Can you please post spoiler tags next time you post a theory like that? 

Sorry to spoil it for you, but at least we don't know WHEN it will happen, and I think we were all kind of hoping for a bad end for Euron anyway.

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The sigil of House Myatt is "a spotted treecat, yellow and black on a mud-brown field." According to Wikipedia (among other references), the treecat is the native sentient species of planet Sphinx, in a series of military science fiction stories written by David Weber.

 

By the way, can unconfirmed homages like that go to a "Behind the scenes" section in the wiki pages?

I just googled "spotted treecat" and found a reference to Rudyard Kippling and The Jungle Book. "Maiou" is the sound the treecat makes. 

Myyaaaaaaaaaattt.

12549212_f520.jpg

Edited by Daendrew
Reason for edit: ADHD

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I may have another, not confirmed of course. The story of the NK's pursuit of the Night Queen is very similar to the story of Pryderi's pursuit of Rhiannon in Welsh myth. In fact, the name Rhiannon means "night queen".

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Haven't finished reading the thread yet, but has anyone ever suggested a link between Sansa's love of lemon cakes and Proust?

In one of the most famous passages of In Search of Lost Time, Proust uses a lemon cake to explore aspects of memory.  This makes me think of Sansa, who loves lemon cakes, and has that wonderful false memory of the kiss that wasn't.  And then there are Dany's famous lemon trees, which suggest false memories too.  

I could be way off, but the idea of lemon (cakes) being symbolism for (false) memory doesn't seem too crazy.  

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Abel is pretty obviously a reference to Bael in-universe, but I think it's also an allusion to the Biblical Abel.  Abel is most famous for being the first brother.  He quarrels with his brother and is killed by him.  Mance too quarrels with his brothers and is "killed" by them (actually Rattleshirt, but hey).  And in the story of his death, burnt offerings to God are key.  There's a question about whether "God's favour" (which Abel has, his brother does not) might come into play with the NW later on, or perhaps R'hllor glamouring him might fit in.  At any rate, it's not at all one for one, but there seems to be enough mixed up similarities for it to be something of an allusion.

But maybe just seeing patterns where there aren't any.  Sad to say, this was the only potential allusion I remembered from my re-read that has yet to be mentioned in the thread.  

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I'm not sure if this is a reference, or just coincidence as it works so well, but the nicknames for the sons of Torren Liddle (Big Liddle, Middle Liddle and Little Liddle) always remind me of the names given to the different sizes of A Greek–English Lexicon

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I have noted a coupe times that the slow travel, and slow writing, of Tyrion's travel's down the river parallel the great writing of Joseph Conrad in Heart of Darkness (some great film was based on this too :0 )

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I have noted a coupe times that the slow travel, and slow writing, of Tyrion's travel's down the river parallel the great writing of Joseph Conrad in Heart of Darkness (some great film was based on this too :0 )

Tyrion's boat voyage indeed may reflect a homage to Heart of Darkness, especially the parts where it turns into a nightmare of mists and enemies (stone men) attacking the boat. Makes you wonder who Kurz is supposed to be then. Since the voyage's ultimate goal is to seek Daenerys, she might have been the envisioned Kurz. After all Kurz is worshipped by the natives and Marlow suspecs he has gone mad (which is what Daenerys fears at times). Meanwhile in a way, (f)Aegon is to take Daenerys' place as Targ heir of the IT. So, it could work. And then Kurz also turns out to be sick and dies, which seems to be the fate of Jon Con.

GRRM has most certainly paid homage to another dark travel logue in Brienne's journey in the RL: Dante's Divine Comedy of his journey through Inferno and Purgatory. From Maidenpool until the Orphan's Inn (including, and especially the chewing of Brienne's cheek by Biter) GRRM has made it into Brienne's Divine Comedy.

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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I see too many dissimilarities between Tyrion's boatride and Conrad's Heart of Darkness (the movie is really something different entirely).  The object is The Golden Company and ultimately Daenarys, not Connington.  The journey isn't one into the Heart of Darkness but rather toward civilization.  And most importantly, the main theme of Heart of Darkness, the "Pilgrims" really have no analogue as far as I can tell. 

That isn't to say that Martin didn't just think "Heart of Darkness?  River journey?  Cool!" and throw one in his book, hell I've heard Oh Brother Where Art Though was supposed to be the Odyssey despite only the most surficial of similarities.

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If there's a link between Heart of Darkness and Tyrion it's a mild stylistic similarity (i.e. dreaminess) during a portion of the boat ride.  Plot similarities beyond a boat trip to seem questionable but maybe it's a deliberate resemblance, IDK.  At any rate, I'm sure he's read the novella, so he might have echoed it subconsciously.  

I don't think anyone mentioned yet that King Cleon is a possible reference to King Creon, who's most famous from Sophocles' versions of the Oedipus legends.  Creon is a (debatably) evil king whose most famous act is to leave a corpse rotting out on the battlefield.  There are enough dissimilarities that it's not clear, or perhaps it's an indirect influence, but there you go.  

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That's a much less arrogant sounding  way of putting it.  Thanks for the paraphrase :).  The Cleon/Creon link looks plausible as well.

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Cleon, last King of Astapor may also be reference to Emperor Cleon II (last Galactic Emperor) from Asimov's 'Foundations' series.

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I see too many dissimilarities between Tyrion's boatride and Conrad's Heart of Darkness (the movie is really something different entirely).  The object is The Golden Company and ultimately Daenarys, not Connington.  The journey isn't one into the Heart of Darkness but rather toward civilization.  And most importantly, the main theme of Heart of Darkness, the "Pilgrims" really have no analogue as far as I can tell. 

That isn't to say that Martin didn't just think "Heart of Darkness?  River journey?  Cool!" and throw one in his book, hell I've heard Oh Brother Where Art Though was supposed to be the Odyssey despite only the most surficial of similarities.

Except Dany's civilisation is embroiled in war, rebellion, a deadly epidemy. Tyrion does not arrive at a civilisation, but at a city that is going to hell. Kurz too attempts to set up a type of civilisation, a settlement that attempts to compromise native culture with his personal ideals, but it unravels around him. So, I think Mereen and Dany can be parallelled to the Heart of Darkness and Kurz in more than stylistic ways. 

As for Oh Brother Where Art Thou: it is inspired by the Odyssey. There are superficial similiraties (they are there to give the clue that it's inspired by the Odyssey), but at heart too, because the protagonist attempts to be reunited with his wife: epic journey, escape from imprisonment, convincing and winning his wife back. Would you argue that Joyce's Ulyssis has merely superficial similarities to the Odyssey?

I think one has to be careful not to confuse several concepts here: a book can contain "references", pay "homage", be "inspired", and/or "adapt". A reference is superficial, such as a name of a character. For instance, the "Lord of Light" is a reference to Zelazny's fantasy sci-fi novel. An inspiration is using other source material for your own ends to tell a story. Often the inspirations will lack the actual name references, but the author would include stylistic clues to the inspiration as a reference to the inspiration, but otherwise uses the heart of the inspiration for his own ends.  An adaptatian is adapting the source material to a different world, time, or medium, but it tells the same story, remains close to the source text, name references, style and heart of the source material but for another medium or completely different setting. The TV-series is supposed to be an adaptatian of aSoIaF (from book to TV).

West Side Story is an example of an inspiration of Romeo & Juliet: book/play to musical, from broadway musical to movie, from Verona (Italy) in the middle ages to New York, US in the 50s-60s. It follows the heart of the story (conflict between two groups that fight and brawl with death as the result and two people of opposing groups falling in love and it ends in tragedy), but also for the author's own use. The names are different. West Side Story's Juliet lives and does not commit suicide. Meanwhile Baz Luhrman's Romeo & Juliet is an adaptatian.

Apocalypse Now is another example of an inspiration (of Heart of Darkness): book to movie, from 19th century Congo to 20th century Vietnam. It's the story of a dangerous and disastrous boat voyage to a figurehead that the protagonist's bosses want to see removed, and the protagonist falling both under the spell of the figurehead as well as realizing he's dangerous. But Coppola used it as an inspiration for his own ends to tell a story about Vietnam. It's sometimes called an adaptation, but there are too many significant differences to call it that imo. I regard it as heavily inspired. 

There are several elements to argue that Tyrion's journey is inspired by it too.

 

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There's the Athenian Cleon as well, a strong opponent of the aristocracy, said to be bloodthirsty by his opponents, a successful general against Sparta and politician who relied heavily on the support of the demos, rather than the upper classes.  He was killed in battle as well; at a place called Amphipolis.  I doubt, Martin has anything like this in mind, but it's a good example of how easy it is to take what we know from our own experiences and seek out analogues for them in someone else's writing.

Edited by Jon Flowers

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