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References and Homages

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I haven't read Ulysses unfortunately.  I still think that the nature of the river journey to Volantis is too far afield from Marlowe's journey literally into "the heart of darkness".  Over and over again the primal, nature of the place they are going is talked about by the narrator.  With Tyrion's journey, it's the opposite.  He thinks about the people he's with and the people he's going to meet when he gets to the city, and about the political situation that he's going to encounter.  I also think that the overarching theme of Heart of Darkness is about Marlowe's journey, as Kurz's before, bringing evil into this place that they were seeking (the Belgian colonization of Congo specifically).  I don't see that in Tyrion's trip down the river either (unless one supposes that Aegon and Connington or Tyrion himself are evil).  I'm not saying that there aren't similarities, but they don't go very deep (like Oh Brother and The Odyssey).  I'm coming from the perspective of looking for common themes rather than certain specific similarities or references from one work to another.  

None of that makes your perceptions invalid and as I mentioned earlier, I do regret the tone of my post perhaps giving that impression. 

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I think one has to be careful not to confuse several concepts here: a book can contain "references", pay "homage", be "inspired", and/or "adapt". A reference is superficial, such as a name of a character. For instance, the "Lord of Light" is a reference to Zelazny's fantasy sci-fi novel. An inspiration is using other source material for your own ends to tell a story. Often the inspirations will lack the actual name references, but the author would include stylistic clues to the inspiration as a reference to the inspiration, but otherwise uses the heart of the inspiration for his own ends.  An adaptatian is adapting the source material to a different world, time, or medium, but it tells the same story, remains close to the source text, name references, style and heart of the source material but for another medium or completely different setting. The TV-series is supposed to be an adaptatian of aSoIaF (from book to TV).

Reference are inherently homages and arguably vice versa.  References and homages also often aren't just superficial - deliberately using an inspiration, when it's supposed to be signposted, is a form of homage.  And even if not inspired, they can go beyond the surface and use a particular name or symbol or whatever for something you've seen in your own work that is somewhat similar - e.g. you've written a character and then afterwards you note a similar character in a different work you enjoy so you give him a similar name: not an inspiration, but not a superficial reference either.  This can even be used as a form of foreshadowing.  And there are other relationships too, but this paragraph isn't going to be exhaustive!

I don't think they're quite as distinct as you seem to be making out, though you're totally right that they have somewhat different connotations.

There's the Athenian Cleon as well, a strong opponent of the aristocracy, said to be bloodthirsty by his opponents, a successful general against Sparta and politician who relied heavily on the support of the demos, rather than the upper classes.  He was killed in battle as well; at a place called Amphipolis.  I doubt, Martin has anything like this in mind, but it's a good example of how easy it is to take what we know from our own experiences and seek out analogues for them in someone else's writing.

Yup, the real Cleon was around at the same time as Sophocles.  Someone mentioned him earlier which is why I wanted to be careful in saying my possible reference was very tentative.  I don't know how common Cleon was as a name in that period for Greece.  Humans are exceptionally good at seeing patterns even when they aren't there.  :)

Cleon, last King of Astapor may also be reference to Emperor Cleon II (last Galactic Emperor) from Asimov's 'Foundations' series.

Another possibility.  I haven't read it.

 

I wonder if, after he's finished writing the series, someone can one go through everything posted here and ask George about it.  That would be fun!  :laugh:

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No, the patterns are there.  It's just, I wonder which of them were part of Martin's thought process at the time he wrote the book.  Were certain name choices like Creon, subconscious responses to something half remembered, or not knowingly remembered at all?  These sorts of things fascinate me.  There is a giant web of prior experience/knowledge out there and who knows which threads have been encountered by an author and if that author is even aware of them half of the time.  Fun stuff to ponder for sure.

Edited by Jon Flowers

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Reference are inherently homages and arguably vice versa.  References and homages also often aren't just superficial - deliberately using an inspiration, when it's supposed to be signposted, is a form of homage.  And even if not inspired, they can go beyond the surface and use a particular name or symbol or whatever for something you've seen in your own work that is somewhat similar - e.g. you've written a character and then afterwards you note a similar character in a different work you enjoy so you give him a similar name: not an inspiration, but not a superficial reference either.  This can even be used as a form of foreshadowing.  And there are other relationships too, but this paragraph isn't going to be exhaustive!

I don't think they're quite as distinct as you seem to be making out, though you're totally right that they have somewhat different connotations.

Agreed that references are inherently homages. Note how I elaborated on the distinction between a reference, an inspiration and an adaptation (and left out homage itself in the rest of the paragraph). It's also true that a reference is does not exlcude the source from being an inspiration that transpires in the work. But a 'reference' is not a plotline. It's the use of a name or use of the same symbol (if symbolism exists). The 'reference' though can be a clue to the source of inspiration of a plot, but not necessarily so. While the Lord of Light as title to the Red God is a reference to Zelazny's novel, the Red God has no link to Zelazny's novel. However, George does have his characters linked symbolicaly to mythological characters, that in many ways can reincarnate (or be resurrected), and also lose abilities or their looks (partly) because of it, which are both major plot devices and themes in Zelazny's novel.

So, references can be used to indicate an inspiration, but they don't have to be. And they certainly can be used having no other meaning than 'hat's off'. George varies his references. One can hardly imagine a reference to a sport's team will have any deeper meaning.

And while I outline a distinction between a 'reference', 'inspiration' and an 'adaptation', especially the impact and form an inspiration can have will vary tremendously.

Edited by sweetsunray

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No, the patterns are there.  It's just, I wonder which of them were part of Martin's thought process at the time he wrote the book. [snip] These sorts of things fascinate me.  There is a giant web of prior experience/knowledge out there and who knows which threads have been encountered by an author and if that author is even aware of them half of the time.  Fun stuff to ponder for sure.

Yes, that is the interesting thing.

When it comes to plots, almost any story has been done so far: in mythology and literature. George seems an author who is very aware of that fact. Even if you don't intentionally write a plotline to reflect a pre-existing one, readers will make connections and see similarities anyway.

Authors can have 2 main positions about it:

  1. I write the plot I want, and whatever unintentional similarity there may be, I don't care, and I refrain from referencing it.
  2. I do care, and I will acknowledge the (unintentional) similarities with references and actually adding similarities to it.

George is an author who overall tends to do the later. He may think of a plotline out of his own, but recognize in the process that it is an echo of another work, and then makes it even more so. Example: Lyanna's plot was going to be Lyanna's plot. But an abduction + burrial in underworldy crypts with a statue does connect to Persephone: so he adds a wreath of flowers, false spring and knights surrounding her with bat and torch sigils (and other symbols), which are exactly the symbols and attributes that Persephone was associated with by the Greeks. The acknowledgement of Lyanna being an echo of the myth of the Rape of Persephone can next lead to the idea of incorporating other abduction myths in the abudction plots of other characters. Hence, Tyrion's abucdtion reflects Ishtar's captivity, and Sansa's reflects Idunn's. The acknowledgement of the unintended becomes the source of world building inspiration. For Ishtar, one needs gates to pass through and 2 sisters. For Idunn you need an eagle reference, a falcon reference, a giant reference, a Loki and a castle on top of a mountain. And with Lyanna as a Persephone you get the idea of out of whack seasons, and that the Starks somehow are a crucial piece of the puzzle, and most likely their moto "Winter is coming".

And once an author does make use of unintended similarities, it also becomes far easier to incoporate intended similarties. Brienne's aFfC journey has too many stylistic similarities to Dante's Divine Comedy. One of the biggest complaints about those chapters by many readers is that it serves little to no purpose: she's on a wild goose and ghost chase the reader knows from the beginnign to be without result, since Sansa is in the Eyrie and Arya is in Braavos. It only seems to serve to highlight the existence of the gravedigger and her getting captured by the BwB. And that story could have been told with far fewer chapters, and yet he wrote several chapters for Brienne, meeting various characters we will never see or hear from again. It is argued then that he did it for world building reasons, to show what hell the RL turned into. Which is imo correct, but what better way to portray hell on earth, than by having her go through a journey like Dante's... and such a journey cannot be written in 2 chapters. Such a journey involves meeting dozens (actually hundreds) of characters, where each character reveals his own background story and how they ended up in hell while they are completely unrelated to the protagonist, and in a certain order of crimes and sins and repentence. Hence, I'm convinced that in Brienne's case, George deliberately wanted to work in the Divine Comedy, and expanded Brienne's journey to several chapters though they have little to no plot relevance. Had it been a separate novel of a woman traveling a war torn country it probably would be called an adaptation of Dante's Divine Comedy as much as Apocalypse Now is called an adaptation of Heart of Darkness. But since it happens in larger scoped story and a genre where readers demand furthering of plot, many readers seem to have missed out on the connection and therefore the literary effort George made in her chapters.

I certainly do not think that a possible Heart of Darkness connection in Tyrion's arc goes that deep as Divine Comedy in Brienne's. George calls his series an Epic. Epics are journey stories. Divine Comedy is an epic story (of poems) too, but of a journey into hell, purgatory and heaven. One of the oldest epics around is Homerus' Odyssey: long, hazardous sea voyage into exotic regions, shiprwrecks, taken prisoner by a cyclopse and fearing to be eaten, held captive by an alluring, beautiful sorceress, a wife with many suitors to go back to after being gone for decades. Heart of Darkness is another epic, but here it's a river and to a doomed place. Tyrion's overall arc can be made out to be similar to Odysseus: captive of two women, and of barbaric men who want to feed his manhood to the goats and one of the barbaric men is one-eyed. He's a smart man who wins the war with wit, but fighting for the side you don't actually want to win. He has one wife where the number of suitors are expected to pile up soon (Sansa), while he's also searching for a long lost wife (Tysha). Most of the places he ends up at in Essos were unplanned, forced against his will (though it still takes him where he wants to go). He makes a large sea voyage, including a wrecking storm. It's been argued that Arya makes an Odyssey, but her tale fits the epic journey of Anderson's Ugly Duckling more than it does the Odyssey... while Tyrion has the most Odyssey like connections imo. And either, George expanded it to the Heart of Darkness for the river part, or he's trying to dissuade the reader from making too many Odyssey connections. Personally, I think he's throwing several epic exotic sea/river journeys onto one heap for Tyrion. I wouldn't be surprised if Shakespeare's Tempest would echo through Tyrion's adventures at some point.

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Abel is pretty obviously a reference to Bael in-universe, but I think it's also an allusion to the Biblical Abel.  Abel is most famous for being the first brother.  He quarrels with his brother and is killed by him.  Mance too quarrels with his brothers and is "killed" by them (actually Rattleshirt, but hey).  And in the story of his death, burnt offerings to God are key.  There's a question about whether "God's favour" (which Abel has, his brother does not) might come into play with the NW later on, or perhaps R'hllor glamouring him might fit in.  At any rate, it's not at all one for one, but there seems to be enough mixed up similarities for it to be something of an allusion.

But maybe just seeing patterns where there aren't any.  Sad to say, this was the only potential allusion I remembered from my re-read that has yet to be mentioned in the thread.  

Maybe Abel is a reference to Peter ABELard as well.... both couldn't be with a woman they loved because they belonged to celibate orders - Mance in Night's Watch, Abelard as a teology professor . Both chose to break rules - Mance deserted watch and Abelard had Heloisa as lover.

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20 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Maybe Abel is a reference to Peter ABELard as well.... both couldn't be with a woman they loved because they belonged to celibate orders - Mance in Night's Watch, Abelard as a teology professor . Both chose to break rules - Mance deserted watch and Abelard had Heloisa as lover.

Interesting notion @Blue Tiger. I reread the little I know of Abelard & Héloïse in Wikipedia as linked and a few more sources to confirm that neither was part of an established order at the time of their affair and later marriage (of which I was unaware until today).

Abelard was an academic, a scholar, let's call him a university professor. But he was neither a priest, nor part of a monastic order then.
At the time, there was no written code refraining such a person from marriage (or knowledge of the other sex).
But on the contrary, a teacher being married was unusual or maybe even unheard of.

Calling Abelard a Theology professor while not being wrong, he was and continued to be famous for that, ignores that basically everyone at uni had to do philosophical work in Theology. It neglects that he was into what nowadays is called logic and natural science, antiquity studies, literature, philosophy and politics. Think his son was named Astrolabe!
On the other hand music and warfare are missing out. So, all in all, very unlike Mance. But it's been quite a joyful excursion. :)
 

 

Edited by Jon Weirgaryen
s/is/his/ and dropped an badly placed "very much".

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Glancing through the forum, I have not seen many post of the historical basis of Jon snow, but Just started reading the Alexander Hamilton book, and the parallels between Hamilton and Jon Snow are amazing. Both are bastards, lose their entire family, lose their inheritance due to illegitimacy, move to a new land alone, become aide de camp to the leader, rise in power, commit adultery, stand up for the rights of the "enemy" and then are killed by colleagues 

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On 9-3-2016 at 6:31 AM, gfd44 said:

Glancing through the forum, I have not seen many post of the historical basis of Jon snow, but Just started reading the Alexander Hamilton book, and the parallels between Hamilton and Jon Snow are amazing. Both are bastards, lose their entire family, lose their inheritance due to illegitimacy, move to a new land alone, become aide de camp to the leader, rise in power, commit adultery, stand up for the rights of the "enemy" and then are killed by colleagues 

Do you mean the founding father Alexander Hamilton? If so, he died in a duel to a political opponent who challenged him to a pistol duel, because Hamilton had insulted him. I don't think that's the same thing as being stabbed by your stewards.

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Do you mean the founding father Alexander Hamilton? If so, he died in a duel to a political opponent who challenged him to a pistol duel, because Hamilton had insulted him. I don't think that's the same thing as being stabbed by your stewards.

Hamilton didn't walk around the continental congress with a dire wolf either. I was just pointing out that there is a remarkable symmetry between a unlikely  fictional and an actual historical character.

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George RR Martin’s Nod to Mark Twain’s  The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn in Jon Snow’s Seventh POV from A Dance with Dragons

American satirist and novelist Samuel Clemens assumes the pen name Mark Twain, which he takes from his experiences as a young man when he became a “cub” steamboat pilot.  “Mark Twain”, or “mark number two”, is “a Mississippi River term” that refers to “the second mark on the line” that measured a depth signified by two fathoms, or twelve feet, or a “safe depth for the steamboat” [https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=mark+twain+meaning].

Twain incorporates his pseudo-identity in thematic elements that feature twos, halves, middles, and dualities, all of which are evident in his classic novel The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.  In a similar fashion, George RR Martin pays homage to Twain’s whimsical incorporation of “twain”, or elements of “twos”,  most notably in Jon Snow’s seventh POV, the middle of thirteen such POV narratives, in A Dance with Dragons.

In Huck, Twain strategically halves his novel, placing its technical climax, or turning point, at its center and marking it with Huck’s pivotal words: “All right then, I’ll go to hell”.  Huck’s moral decision has grave consequences, or so he believes, because he must weigh the value of his friendship with Jim against what society has taught him about slavery.  [Apparently, Twain scholars have counted the words from the beginning and from the end of the novel to ascertain an equal divide before and after Huck’s memorable words – I, however, never counted words myself to confirm these claims.]  Twain writes:

“I [Huck]  was a-trembling, because I’d got to decide, forever, betwixt two things, and I knowed it”.

Huck opts to help Jim escape slavery even if it means eternal damnation rather than going to what others view as heaven.  Moreover, Huck’s experiences on the Mississippi  River with Jim teaches him that Jim is a man no matter the color of his skin and that the “sivilized” world from which they come is cruel and hypocritical.  So Huck chooses “freedom” for him and his pal.

In a similar fashion, Jon decides to permit two wildlings, Leathers and Jax, to wear a black cloak after saying their vows, thus becoming SBs of the Night’s Watch. Moreover, Jon’s choice is a prelude to his later resolve of allowing the wildlings to pass the Wall to save them from the supernatural forces threatening them.  Neither of Jon’s decrees is popular with a majority of his black brothers whose hatred for the free folk is “bone deep” [ADwD 465].

After the men say their vows and rise, Jon Snow does not see the “wildlings” – “all he saw was men” [469].  This is like Huck seeing Jim’s humanity despite the color of his skin. 

Martin manipulates his language in Jon’s POV to convey twos, halves, middles, divisions, disguises, and dualities, all with a cleverness that rivals Twain’s.  The first sentence of the POV begins the pattern:  “The sun had broken through near midday, after seven days of dark skies and snow flurries” [461].  Even Martin’s repetition of “seven” marks the chronological placement of this POV.

The men “cross” beneath the Wall to embark on their journey and upon their return.  “Bowen Marsh stomped across the yard to confront Jon” [462].  “Ghost slipped between two white-coated  pines” [463]. “Half a mile from the grove, long red shafts of autumn sunlight were slanting between the branches of leafless trees . . . “ and “The riders crossed a frozen stream, between two jagged rocks armored in ice . . .” [465]. “He looked right and left”;  “They rushed the grove together . . . “;  “no two faces were alike” ; “Ghost , . . a white shadow at Jon’s side” [466].  “The fire in the center of the grove . . .” [467].

Despite the many, many examples, the most important couple in this “middle” narrative is Jon Snow and his direwolf Ghost.

Martin foreshadows Jon sharing his direwolf’s skin in the near future.

Martin plays with his cloaking/coating motif by suggesting that Jon Snow metaphorically is the “snow”, as in Jon’s observation that Ghost “seemed to love fresh snow” [ADwD 462].  Ghost loves Jon Snow so much that he even covers himself with “snow”!

 So much so  that “At the base of the Wall he [Jon] found Ghost rolling in a snowbank . . . When he saw Jon he bounded back onto his feet and shook himself off” [462].

Because Martin repeats this and more figurative language pertaining to cloak/coat wearing and removing, Martin may indeed suggest that Jon Snow will wear his direwolf’s skin as warg – and direwolf will be in disguise as Jon Snow, wearing his snowy coat, yet cognizant and aware as his master – the warg within the direwolf.  

Furthermore, Martin makes clear to readers to pay heed to language when Jon Snow says, “The words matter . . .” [ ADwD 462].  In context, Jon refers to the NW oath that his new recruits will speak beyond the Wall in the grove of nine weirwoods.  Yet, at the same time, Jon’s words “cloak” deeper meanings – Jon is Martin’s voice attesting to the importance of the author’s words as well as the sacred oath of the SB of the NW.

A great deal of Jon’s dialogue has deeper meanings:  the NW words “bind us all together” and “They make us brothers” [462-463].  Jon and Ghost are thus bonded, closer than even Jon and his half siblings.

When Jon calls Ghost “To me”, the direwolf “shook the snow from his back and trotted to Jon’s side” [463[.  This is the second reference to Ghost wearing the skin of “Jon Snow”.  Then Jon and Ghost travel beneath the ice, “the trees stood tall and silent, huddled in thick white cloaks” [463].  Martin dresses the trees to emphasize the idea of “transformation/rebirth/skinchanging”.  The men who march with Jon will return transformed – and they will wear the black as SBs.  Likewise, Jon Snow will also be transformed/reborn/skinchanged not long after his return to the Wall.  Mayhap he will shed his black cloak – Martin hints at this, yes?

Ghost stalks beside Jon’s mount, sniffing the air.  When Jon asks “What is it?”, Jon admits to himself, the reader, and Ghost that Jon Snow has limited vision:  “The woods were empty as far as he could see, but that was not very far” [463].  Perhaps Jon’s vision will be clearer when he looks through the red eyes of Ghost.

Jon watches as “Ghost bounded toward the trees, slipped between two-white-cloaked pines, and vanished in a cloud of snow” [463].  Martin employs the past participle of “slip” -  “slipped”, a word Lord Brynden speaks to Bran, telling him to slip his skin and fly.  “Vanished” is a word Martin employs consistently, beginning with AGoT and throughout the novels that follow. The author describes the Stark direwolves as vanishing on those occasions when they enter the forest or elsewhere. 

 “A vanishing act” is a trick, an illusion that magicians perform – it is a fitting word for Martin to repeat because his world of ice and fire is filled with magic.

Mark Twain famously inserts himself into the action of Huck, appearing as a performer in a circus, standing upon the back of a horse, attempting a balancing act.  The author disguising himself as a player amid many likely goes unnoticed by casual readers.  The art of disguise that fools even the readers is like a magic trick.  As is balancing the literary elements that are integral to the composition of truly brilliant fiction.

Martin poignantly depicts Jon and Ghost’s bond – their oneness:

“Jon smelled Tom Barleycorn before he saw him.   Or was it Ghost who smelled him Of late, Jon Snow sometimes felt as he and his direwolf were one, even awake” [466].

“The shield that guards the realms of men.  Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped his arm around him.  He could smell Horse’s unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the sharp smell of fear, the giant’s overpowering musk.  He could hear the beating of his own heart” [469].

Martin emphasizes Jon and Ghost’s connection through shared sensory perceptions.

The third time Martin refers to Ghost and his snow coat is here:  The great wolf appeared first, shaking off the snow” [466].  However, Ghost is also a “white shadow at Jon’s side, with red eyes like the weirwood’s”.

Martin references coats and cloaks, all of which develop the theme of a covering that outwardly changes or transforms an individual’s appearance.  Yet wearing an outer garment does not conceal what dwells in the heart of he who wears it.

Similarly, in Huck, Twain presents his lead character as wearing many disguises – Huck pretends to be a girl, wearing a dress and bonnet and claiming to know about sewing.  Likewise, Jim becomes Huck’s surrogate father figure, a man with black skin symbolically adopting a white boy.  Jim even spares Huck from discovering the bloated corpse of his pap when they come upon their house floating upon the river.

Following are a few references from Jon’s POV7 that suggest the wearing of cloaks and coats:

“The evening sky had turned the faded grey of an old cloak that had been washed too many times . . .” [466].

Their hoods were raised against the biting wind, and some had scarves wrapped about their faces, hiding their features” [464].

With their black hoods and thick black cowls, the six might have been carved from shadow” [468].

“The wind . . , made their coats snap and swirl . . .” [469].

Finally, Jon Snow removes his cloak upon returning, “hanging his cloak on the peg beside the door” [470].

After taking off his cloak, Jon reads the words of a king, after which he reflects upon Winterfell, “the castle is a shell . . . not WF, but the ghost of WF”  [470]. 

Jon removing his cloak is “like” the empty shell of WF without a visible Stark on location.  Instead of his blacks, Jon will replace them with Ghost’s white fur when he accepts his warg nature.  Perhaps the direwolf and the warg within will take up residence in the shell that is Winterfell. Great Jon Snow’s Ghost will occupy Winterfell, literally and symbolically.

I have skimped on direct references to Huck and further evidences from Martin’s Jon POV.  But the duality theme that both authors masterfully convey is worthy of further analysis.  I have presented only a few evidences taken from my much longer and more in depth study of shared patterns and developments between the fiction works of two celebrated American authors.

Edited by evita mgfs
formating

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On 1/14/2016 at 1:17 PM, sweetsunray said:

Except Dany's civilisation is embroiled in war, rebellion, a deadly epidemy. Tyrion does not arrive at a civilisation, but at a city that is going to hell. Kurz too attempts to set up a type of civilisation, a settlement that attempts to compromise native culture with his personal ideals, but it unravels around him. So, I think Mereen and Dany can be parallelled to the Heart of Darkness and Kurz in more than stylistic ways. 

As for Oh Brother Where Art Thou: it is inspired by the Odyssey. There are superficial similiraties (they are there to give the clue that it's inspired by the Odyssey), but at heart too, because the protagonist attempts to be reunited with his wife: epic journey, escape from imprisonment, convincing and winning his wife back. Would you argue that Joyce's Ulyssis has merely superficial similarities to the Odyssey?

I think one has to be careful not to confuse several concepts here: a book can contain "references", pay "homage", be "inspired", and/or "adapt". A reference is superficial, such as a name of a character. For instance, the "Lord of Light" is a reference to Zelazny's fantasy sci-fi novel. An inspiration is using other source material for your own ends to tell a story. Often the inspirations will lack the actual name references, but the author would include stylistic clues to the inspiration as a reference to the inspiration, but otherwise uses the heart of the inspiration for his own ends.  An adaptatian is adapting the source material to a different world, time, or medium, but it tells the same story, remains close to the source text, name references, style and heart of the source material but for another medium or completely different setting. The TV-series is supposed to be an adaptatian of aSoIaF (from book to TV).

West Side Story is an example of an inspiration of Romeo & Juliet: book/play to musical, from broadway musical to movie, from Verona (Italy) in the middle ages to New York, US in the 50s-60s. It follows the heart of the story (conflict between two groups that fight and brawl with death as the result and two people of opposing groups falling in love and it ends in tragedy), but also for the author's own use. The names are different. West Side Story's Juliet lives and does not commit suicide. Meanwhile Baz Luhrman's Romeo & Juliet is an adaptatian.

Apocalypse Now is another example of an inspiration (of Heart of Darkness): book to movie, from 19th century Congo to 20th century Vietnam. It's the story of a dangerous and disastrous boat voyage to a figurehead that the protagonist's bosses want to see removed, and the protagonist falling both under the spell of the figurehead as well as realizing he's dangerous. But Coppola used it as an inspiration for his own ends to tell a story about Vietnam. It's sometimes called an adaptation, but there are too many significant differences to call it that imo. I regard it as heavily inspired. 

There are several elements to argue that Tyrion's journey is inspired by it too.

 

I do see Heart of Darkness as an inspiration. I was also reminded of Herman Melville's The Confidance Man, a steamboat journey on the Mississippi wherein all the passengers are wearing masks. I read it too long ago to make any certain comparisons, but the fact that no one on Martin's boat is who they say they are provides a rather striking comparison. Martin's own novel, Fevre Dreams, is another river journey part Stoker, part Twain. 

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Kasporio the Clever is Gary Kasparov.

Also biting your lip when you're lying is a Bill Clintonism.

Edited by Daendrew

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On 16-3-2016 at 8:49 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

I do see Heart of Darkness as an inspiration. I was also reminded of Herman Melville's The Confidance Man, a steamboat journey on the Mississippi wherein all the passengers are wearing masks. I read it too long ago to make any certain comparisons, but the fact that no one on Martin's boat is who they say they are provides a rather striking comparison. Martin's own novel, Fevre Dreams, is another river journey part Stoker, part Twain. 

The Confidance Man sounds an interesting link, there.

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On 9-4-2016 at 4:38 AM, Daendrew said:

Also biting your lip when you're lying is a Bill Clintonism.

:lmao: good one

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