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Florian the fool = Jean-Pierre Claris de Florian?

This Florian was an army officer (not strictly a knight, but a Captain of the Dragoons at a time when one had to be born a nobleman to get a commission in the French army. Which Florian's guardian, who got him the commission, was.) He retired from the army in 1788 to write comedy, having already become popular for his chivalric romances and verse.

He was imprisoned during the reign of terror, and although Robspierre was guillotined before he had time to sign Florian's death warrant, Florian died in prison of tuberculosis six weeks later.

His fables for children are probably the most widely read of his works now (not that any of his works are widely read now) and he coined the phrase "he who laughs last, laughs best"

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"There are no men like me. Only me." is  very similar to "There are no women like me. I am unique." from Blake's 7

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Has anyone ever noticed this?

The Hobbit, chapter 1

Quote

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.

It had a perfectly round door like a porthole, painted green, with a shiny yellow brass knob in the exact middle. The door opened on to a tube-shaped hall like a tunnel: a very comfortable tunnel without smoke, with panelled walls, and floors tiled and carpeted, provided with polished chairs, and lots and lots of pegs for hats and coats—the hobbit was fond of visitors.

A Feast for Crows, Brienne VI

Quote

Brother Narbert led the visitors around a chestnut tree to a wooden door set in the side of the hill.

“A cave with a door?” Ser Hyle said, surprised. [...]

Perhaps two thousand years ago the Hermit’s Hole had been a damp, dark place, floored with dirt and echoing to the sounds of dripping water, but no longer. The cave that Brienne and her companions entered had been turned into a warm, snug sanctum. Woolen carpets covered the ground, tapestries the walls. Tall beeswax candles gave more than ample light. The furnishings were strange but simple; a long table, a settle, a chest, several tall cases full of books, and chairs. All were made from driftwood, oddly shaped pieces cunningly joined together and polished till they shone a deep gold in the candlelight.

 

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On 1/31/2018 at 5:36 AM, Gnababa said:

Has anyone ever noticed this?

The Hobbit, chapter 1

A Feast for Crows, Brienne VI

 

I noticed that when I first read that, allthough I had forgotten about it until reading this your post.

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There's a lot of stuff here, not easy to check on duplicates, but the sword forged from the heart of a star reflects a similar weapon in de Camp's The Tritonian Ring. In that story the protagonist is tasked with retrieving that which the Gods fear, which was a ring forged from a fallen star. The ring is lost (treacherous ringbearer eaten by crocodiles) so the protagonist obtains the fallen star and takes it to the only smith who can forge that metal. Instead of a ring he has a sword made. As it turns out, the reason the Gods feared the ring was that the star metal killed magic.

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I'm sure someone has already written about this:

The Norse creation myth, from what I remember, says that the niflheim (world of ice) and a primordial world of fire (name escapes me) were separated by a huge chasm, and creation began when the ice and fire mingled, creating the first being. 

Has anyone done an analysis on this particular marriage of ice and fire and how it relates to the books? My instinct says that maybe he was inspired by the idea of ice and fire and took it to a while new place, but now I'm curious to see if any other readers who know far more about Norse mythology than me have already gone down this rabbit hole. 

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Bitterblooms said:

I'm sure someone has already written about this:

The Norse creation myth, from what I remember, says that the niflheim (world of ice) and a primordial world of fire (name escapes me) were separated by a huge chasm, and creation began when the ice and fire mingled, creating the first being. 

Has anyone done an analysis on this particular marriage of ice and fire and how it relates to the books? My instinct says that maybe he was inspired by the idea of ice and fire and took it to a while new place, but now I'm curious to see if any other readers who know far more about Norse mythology than me have already gone down this rabbit hole. 

Paste this into Google to start...

niflheim site:asoiaf.westeros.org

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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I first heard of Eddison's "The Worm Ouroboros" from someone complaining that GRRM was just imitating the amorality of that story. I haven't actually read it myself (the deliberately old timey prose is a barrier, as are the silly names Eddison came up with when he was 10), but it occurred to me that the "cadaverous" Gorys Edoryen might be named after King Gorice of Witchland, who returns in a new "incarnation" each time a previous one dies.

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@Leo of House Cartel came up with the idea that House Costayne might actually be a nod to the journalist Thomas B. Costain whose popular history on the Plantagenet kings George cites on his NAB as an inspiration for 'Fire and Blood'.

Reading the first volume, 'The Conquering Family' right now, I can say that those books are not just an inspiration for FaB but the entire ASoIaF series.

On 29.4.2018 at 8:13 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

I first heard of Eddison's "The Worm Ouroboros" from someone complaining that GRRM was just imitating the amorality of that story. I haven't actually read it myself (the deliberately old timey prose is a barrier, as are the silly names Eddison came up with when he was 10), but it occurred to me that the "cadaverous" Gorys Edoryen might be named after King Gorice of Witchland, who returns in a new "incarnation" each time a previous one dies.

I really like that thing. Never made the Gorice connection there, but it is a possibility. King Gorice isn't all that cadaverous, though. When he dies he just sort of shows up again, without any smelly side effects, and he actually has different talents in each incarnation (one is a sorcerer, the other a great warrior, etc.).

But still, it could be a nod in that direction. George makes a lot of subtle nods I often completely miss because I don't know the source material.

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Just to say that Costayne being a reference to Thomas Costain has been known for nearly two decades now.  Their arms are a dead giveaway.

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48 minutes ago, Ran said:

Just to say that Costayne being a reference to Thomas Costain has been known for nearly two decades now.  Their arms are a dead giveaway.

Thought something like that. I'm not really good at stuff like that, especially not if I don't know the people that are referenced ;-).

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On 4/29/2018 at 2:13 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

I first heard of Eddison's "The Worm Ouroboros" from someone complaining that GRRM was just imitating the amorality of that story. I haven't actually read it myself (the deliberately old timey prose is a barrier, as are the silly names Eddison came up with when he was 10), but it occurred to me that the "cadaverous" Gorys Edoryen might be named after King Gorice of Witchland, who returns in a new "incarnation" each time a previous one dies.

 

On 4/30/2018 at 4:27 PM, Lord Varys said:

@Leo of House Cartel came up with the idea that House Costayne might actually be a nod to the journalist Thomas B. Costain whose popular history on the Plantagenet kings George cites on his NAB as an inspiration for 'Fire and Blood'.

Reading the first volume, 'The Conquering Family' right now, I can say that those books are not just an inspiration for FaB but the entire ASoIaF series.

I really like that thing. Never made the Gorice connection there, but it is a possibility. King Gorice isn't all that cadaverous, though. When he dies he just sort of shows up again, without any smelly side effects, and he actually has different talents in each incarnation (one is a sorcerer, the other a great warrior, etc.).

But still, it could be a nod in that direction. George makes a lot of subtle nods I often completely miss because I don't know the source material.

Since you guys mention it, the character I immediately think of is Petyr Baelish, who might be in part an homage to Eddison's Lord Gro. It's been years since I read it, but he is a character who tries to play multiple parties against each other; it culminates in him striking down both friend and foe on a battlefield, and saying it is all the same anyway. He also is desperately in love with a woman, which influences his strategies, and makes him into a tragic figure, although like Baelish, his expedient worldview makes him impossible to really like (at least for me). Especially in contrast to the characters around both of them who make great sacrifices in order to honor their commitments.

Another more broad comparison is the sense of scale in both stories, both in time (many ages of history) and in the grandeur of the great houses. Big castles, big parties, prehistoric rivalries. There are also war atrocities that are shocking to read, against civilians. Not that that's rare in fantasy, but the way it's presented as a normal part of their wars, not an aberration, is a similarity between the two.

The idea behind Gorice's cyclical existence might be compared to the Others, since he's always coming back, and always malevolent.

I really love 'Ouroboros', and I enjoy working to decode the language as I go, it's kind of fun and not unlike the extra effort that goes into Shakespeare. I've just started Kingsnorth's 'The Wake' and I can see it's going to be a similar experience.

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I am thinking that this line line in which Catelyn considers Renly...

She ate sparingly, while she watched this man who would be king.

Catelyn II, Clash 22

...is an allusion to "one of the the best stories in the world," The Man Who Would be King

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Just been reading Mary Stewart's The Wicked Day (1983), a retelling of Mordred and the death of King Arthur. It doesn't flinch from the sex and violence in the tale, but it's a little romantic and slow by GRRM's standards. However, the period detail is excellent and I think he might have read it. There's an outrageously Cersei-like Queen Morgause, a theme of incest and the ambitions of bastards, and something in the writing style I can't quite put my finger on.

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11 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Just been reading Mary Stewart's The Wicked Day (1983), a retelling of Mordred and the death of King Arthur. It doesn't flinch from the sex and violence in the tale, but it's a little romantic and slow by GRRM's standards. However, the period detail is excellent and I think he might have read it. There's an outrageously Cersei-like Queen Morgause, a theme of incest and the ambitions of bastards, and something in the writing style I can't quite put my finger on.

That reminds me of something: George has already acknowledged the influence of "The Accursed Kings", but I didn't realize just how closely his work resembles it until I watched the original French miniseries. Things like Cersei/Margaery being locked up on charges of adultery, the poisoning of the king, swapping out the infant heir to the throne before he can be murdered, a reminder that the common people suffer for the avarice of the nobility, even direct inspirations for certain characters are all in there. The biggest difference is that it's taken from history so there's no explicit magic (though a number of characters believe in magic curses). Combine Tolkien's Middle Earth with that series and you've basically got A Song of Ice and Fire.

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So, is anyone actually compiling these into a list for reference, as originally stated, or...?

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