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22 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Or not

What? "Shaggydog story"? I never heard of that one.
Even so, the point of "Shaggydog story" wouldn't suggest that Shaggydog is going to die ... and Rickon's story isn't being dragged on anyways.

*sigh*
I hope I don't get into trouble for this.
If you are reading this now and haven't read Top Secret Theory, it will be a real WTF below.
For those who have read it, you know the drill.


Spoiler Alert: Wordplay of Shaggydog, Rickon Stark & Osha:

Spoiler

 

Shaggydog is about Shaggy and his dog Scooby-Doo.
Why do you think they hang out in the crypts so much?

In the books, Rickon is named for Eddard's father Rickard.
Rickard is named for Richard Nixon
Rickon is named for Richard Nixon

Richard Nixon is a former USA president.

The only time where I found a direct connection between Shaggy and Richard Nixon is in the 1972 TV Episode: The New Scooby Doo Movies - S01E04 - The Frickert Fracas.
In this episode, Shaggy and a character named Jonathon Winters are trying to scare a man dressed as a scarecrow.
(Off-topic: When I hear "scarecrow", I always think of Bloodraven :dunno:).
Shaggy threatens the scarecrow by impersonating Richard Nixon and saying "My fellow American, let me make one thing perfectly clear!"
I wonder if this symbolizes Rickon/Richard warging into Shaggy/Shaggydog? :D

An actual quote from former President Richard Nixon in Ms. Magazine 1971: "Let me make one thing perfectly clear! I wouldn't want to wake up next to a lady pipefitter!" :thumbsdown:

I wonder if a woman like Osha, in modern times, would be employed as a pipe fitter? It's funny because Rickon/Richard would probably wake up next to her nowadays lol.
I wonder if modern-Osha would fit pipes safely under OSHA safety standards :rofl:

Also, it was President Richard Nixon that founded OSHA in 1970.

Bonus Theory:
Don't believe Rickon Stark is named after a US President/Politician?
Let's look at other male Starks: Jon, Robb, Bran, and Eddard.

Well, I'm pretty sure Brandon is named after an actor.
And I don't think Jon is named after John Starks, a former New York Knicks basketball player from the early 1990s.

Jon ... Robb ... Eddard (Ned):
John F. Kennedy ... Robert F. Kennedy ... Edward (Ted) Kennedy

Jon Snow / Jon Arryn / John F. Kennedy were assassinated
Robb Stark / Robert Baratheon / Robert F. Kennedy were assassinated

The Kennedy Family are American royalty
Just like the Starks are Westerosi royalty

Fun Fact:
Did you know Arnold Schwarzenegger married into American royalty when he married Maria Shriver in 1986? Maria Shriver is one generation down: she is the niece of John, Robert and Ted Kennedy.
Their kids ... wow ... Schwarzenegger blood and Kennedy blood ... must be some awesome mix.
Too bad they got divorced.

 

Also 'Lost Melnibonean', I don't believe in your Last Hero theory, no offense.

Just a gut feeling ... I believe Jaime, as half-brother to Rhaegar, will be our Last Hero when he seeks out the Children of the Forest with Brienne and their companions, AND kills them! Its to rescue Bran from the CotF. I'm just undecided where Bran will be held hostage at ... either Bloodraven's cave, the Nightfort (after Shireen gets burnt), or Winterfell (after Stannis is turned zombie). Also, Jaime is going to have his sword broken in the rescue attempt ... leading him to look for another sword of quality ... just a gut feeling.

Edited by The Map Guy

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14 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

What? "Shaggydog story"? I never heard of that one.
Even so, the point of "Shaggydog story" wouldn't suggest that Shaggydog is going to die ... and Rickon's story isn't being dragged on anyways.

*sigh*
I hope I don't get into trouble for this.
If you are reading this now and haven't read Top Secret Theory, it will be a real WTF below.
For those who have read it, you know the drill.


Spoiler Alert: Wordplay of Shaggydog, Rickon Stark & Osha:

  Hide contents

 

Shaggydog is about Shaggy and his dog Scooby-Doo.
Why do you think they hang out in the crypts so much?

In the books, Rickon is named for Eddard's father Rickard.
Rickard is named for Richard Nixon
Rickon is named for Richard Nixon

Richard Nixon is a former USA president.

The only time where I found a direct connection between Shaggy and Richard Nixon is in the 1972 TV Episode: The New Scooby Doo Movies - S01E04 - The Frickert Fracas.
In this episode, Shaggy and a character named Jonathon Winters are trying to scare a man dressed as a scarecrow.
(Off-topic: When I hear "scarecrow", I always think of Bloodraven :dunno:).
Shaggy threatens the scarecrow by impersonating Richard Nixon and saying "My fellow American, let me make one thing perfectly clear!"
I wonder if this symbolizes Rickon/Richard warging into Shaggy/Shaggydog? :D

An actual quote from former President Richard Nixon in Ms. Magazine 1971: "Let me make one thing perfectly clear! I wouldn't want to wake up next to a lady pipefitter!" :thumbsdown:

I wonder if a woman like Osha, in modern times, would be employed as a pipe fitter? It's funny because Rickon/Richard would probably wake up next to her nowadays lol.
I wonder if modern-Osha would fit pipes safely under OSHA safety standards :rofl:

Also, it was President Richard Nixon that founded OSHA in 1970.

Bonus Theory:
Don't believe Rickon Stark is named after a US President/Politician?
Let's look at other male Starks: Jon, Robb, Bran, and Eddard.

Well, I'm pretty sure Brandon is named after an actor.
And I don't think Jon is named after John Starks, a former New York Knicks basketball player from the early 1990s.

Jon ... Robb ... Eddard (Ned):
John F. Kennedy ... Robert F. Kennedy ... Edward (Ted) Kennedy

Jon Snow / Jon Arryn / John F. Kennedy were assassinated
Robb Stark / Robert Baratheon / Robert F. Kennedy were assassinated

The Kennedy Family are American royalty
Just like the Starks are Westerosi royalty

Fun Fact:
Did you know Arnold Schwarzenegger married into American royalty when he married Maria Shriver in 1986? Maria Shriver is one generation down: she is the niece of John, Robert and Ted Kennedy.
Their kids ... wow ... Schwarzenegger blood and Kennedy blood ... must be some awesome mix.
Too bad they got divorced.

 

Also 'Lost Melnibonean', I don't believe in your Last Hero theory, no offense.

Just a gut feeling ... I believe Jaime, as half-brother to Rhaegar, will be our Last Hero when he seeks out the Children of the Forest with Brienne and their companions, AND kills them! Its to rescue Bran from the CotF. I'm just undecided where Bran will be held hostage at ... either Bloodraven's cave, the Nightfort (after Shireen gets burnt), or Winterfell (after Stannis is turned zombie). Also, Jaime is going to have his sword broken in the rescue attempt ... leading him to look for another sword of quality ... just a gut feeling.

I posted that several years ago. Maybe I ought to toss it out there again... 

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6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I posted that several years ago. Maybe I ought to toss it out there again... 

No worries. I did learn something new. Perhaps Shaggydog & Rickon will be a "Shaggydog Story", just not the interpretation you have.

The concept of "Shaggydog Stories" doesn't involve death or being "futile" ... it involves "pointlessness" and "anticlimactic".

 

"Futile" is failure to achieve a goal.

A "Shaggydog Story" doesn't have a goal.

 

Example of a "Shaggydog Story":

  • "Guess what I saw today? So I went to the supermarket today and I went the milk aisle, turned right to the soda aisle, then turned left to the beer aisle, and finally turn right to the pastry aisle ... and there I saw it! I saw a cardboard cutout of the Pillsbury Doughboy cartoon character bending over!" 
  • "And?"
  • "And what? That's it!"
  • :mellow:

 

Bad example of a "Shaggydog Story" is:

  • "Guess what I saw today? So I went to the supermarket today and I went the milk aisle, turned right to the soda aisle, then turned left to the beer aisle, and finally turn right to the pastry aisle ... and there I saw it! I saw a cardboard cutout of the Pillsbury Doughboy cartoon character bending over! And then I died ..." 
  • :blink:

 

Example of telling a proper story:

  • "Guess what I saw today? So I went to the supermarket, and in the pastry aisle is where I saw it! I saw a cardboard cutout of the Pillsbury Doughboy cartoon character bending over! Under him between his legs, there was a sign that said "Grab these!". Under the cartoon cutout and sign, were boxes of doughNuts on sale!"
  • :D

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In The Long Reign, Fire and Blood, we are told that the Lady Meredith took on great grey lizards, one of which bit a crewman who lost the bitten leg, and that was followed by a large white leviathan purposefully slamming into the ship. Is this sequence of events an allusion to Moby Dick, in which Ahab seeks revenge on the whale that caused him to lose a leg? 

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On 11/18/2005 at 8:33 AM, Xray the Enforcer said:

This one is a bit tenuous, admittedly, but my dad noticed it and I was pleasantly surprised by the parallel.

 

When Khal Drogo crowns Viserys with a hot pot with melted gold, it's very similar to the way that Ayesha, She Who Must Be Obeyed from the H. Rider Haggard Story "She" kills her enemies and servants who disappoint her: she places a red-hot iron pot over their heads.

Yes but way before any H. Rider Haggard story, the real-life Genghis Khan infamously killed an enemy by pouring a boiling pot of (SILVER) over his head.

Obviously George Martin uses much real life historical figures and events to influence his work.. heck the whole Dothraki are essentially Mongols!

Aegon the Conqueror crossed his Narrow Sea, whilst William the Conqueror crosses the English Channel..

I consider myself somewhat of a historian so I can put up more G.O.T. / history cross-references.

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The Wall of the G.O.T. universe is essentially mimicking Hadrian’s Wall in Great Britain. Just substitute the Wildlings for the Scots (barbarians to the English) and you can even see Mance Raydar as a figurative William Wallace!

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Spearwives

When Squirrel returned, the other four were with her: gaunt grey-haired Myrtle, Willow Witch-Eye with her long black braid, Frenya of the thick waist and enormous breasts, Holly with her knife. Clad as serving girls in layers of drab grey roughspun, they wore brown woolen cloaks lined with white rabbit fur. No swords, Theon saw. No axes, no hammers, no weapons but knives. Holly's cloak was fastened with a silver clasp, and Frenya had a girdle of hempen rope wound about her middle from her hips to breasts. It made her look even more massive than she was. {Theon I ADWD}

 

Be careful now, this may break some hearts:

Spoiler

Shrek the Third - 2007

Squirrel = Princess Snow White
https://shrek.fandom.com/wiki/Snow_White

Princess Snow White screams to the tune of Immigrant Song by Led Zeppelin. With her siren, she controls animals to attack her enemies, including squirrels.

In my ADOS Prediction:

Spoiler

Squirrel ~ Arya, and Arya has been compared to Meera Reed by Bran.
Meera is a Stark Targaryen princess ... most likely a bastard = Princess Snow!! (get it?) White
In my assumption of the climax of ASOIAF (that I predicted in January 2019) I have Meera doing the same rendition of Immigrant Song by Led Zeppelin ... where as a female Stark, she single-handedly ends the Long Night (but she then turns evil, feeding her mad Targaryen side!).

I know George, too many coincidences!!! Shrek 2 with CGI Jaime & Holding Out for a Hero ... and now Shrek 3 with CGI Meera & Immigrant Song!!

 

Rowan = Doris
https://shrek.fandom.com/wiki/Doris
Doris is a transgender woman. Rowan = wROng WomAN lol

The woman [Rowan] smiled crookedly. "Do you take me for a whore?" She was one of the singer's washerwomen, the tall skinny one, too lean and leathery to be called pretty … though there was a time when Theon would have tumbled her all the same, to see how it felt to have those long legs wrapped around him. {The Turncloak ADWD}

Her long legs -
https://youtu.be/P-wGG8vYbZU?t=128
C'mon George! Theon has it bad already, why do you have to do him so dirty again? Geez :rofl:

 

Willow Witch-eye = Princess Rapunzel
https://shrek.fandom.com/wiki/Rapunzel  
A willow tree has long long long strands of leaves/branches ... like the long long long hair of Princess Rapunzel.
In this movie, Princess Rapunzel betrays all the other princesses by switching sides with the bad guys.
"Switch side" ~ "witch eye"
I see what you did there George!!

 

Myrtle = MaRY Poppins ~ Julie Andrews ~ Queen Lillian
https://shrek.fandom.com/wiki/Lillian
Myrtle is the oldest of the spearwives, just like Queen Lillian (aka Julie Andrews (aka Mary Poppins)) is among the princesses
George, you probably had to choose between Myrtle tree or Poplar tree for Mary Poppins huh?

 

Holly = Princess Sleeping Beauty
This one I need more time to explain.
Holly = Hollywood's version of Sleeping Beauty. Old school Hollywood/Disney's Sleeping Beauty is a story that involves rape ... kissing a sleeping woman.
This is where George changes the narrative with his character Holly, who's pouty lips are made for kissing.

She sat down next to him, too close, another of Abel's washerwomen. This one was young, fifteen or maybe sixteen, with shaggy blond hair in need of a good wash and a pair of pouty lips in need of a good kiss. "Some girls like to touch," she said, with a little half-smile. "If it please m'lord, I'm Holly." {A Ghost in Winterfell ADWD}

Later on Holly kisses a guard to distract him, before slitting his throat. Holly is eventually killed in the escape attempt. I guess this is George's anti-rape message to old school Hollywood, hidden in ADWD.

Jeyne Poole was staring down at Holly as the snowy blanket over her turned from white to red. {Theon I ADWD}

The "snowy blankets" suggests "Sleeping".
I agree with you George ... without consent, don't kiss an unconscious woman!

 

Frenya = Princess Fiona

Frenya of the thick waist and enormous breasts. [...] ... and Frenya had a girdle of hempen rope wound about her middle from her hips to breasts. It made her look even more massive than she was. {Theon I ADWD}

https://shrek.fandom.com/wiki/Fiona
Well technically this isn't wrong ... is it George?

 

Their secret identities as washerwomen is a reference to Princess Cinderella .. because she was originally a washerwoman.

 

Also in Shrek 3 is Arthur "Artie" Pendragon. He is probably George's inspiration to Aegon
https://shrek.fandom.com/wiki/Arthur_Pendragon
He is a handsome puny kid that gets bullied by high school kids (by both jocks AND nerds!). He is all talk and no action. The movie writers expected us to cheer for him when he was told he was the rightful heir to their kingdom's throne (Because Shrek dun want it!). But I dun buy it. George probably dun buy it either. I saw who Artie really was, even though the movie tries really hard to make us like him. He was weak & pathetic, and his kingship was given to him on a golden platter even though he accomplished nothing to earn it.

Artie Pendragon: So wait. I'm really the only heir?
Shrek: The one and only!

And then Prince Aegon spoke. "Then put your hopes on me," he said. "Daenerys is Prince Rhaegar's sister, but I am Rhaegar's son. I am the only dragon that you need." {The Lost Lord ADWD}

Sorry guys, I really don't like Artie or f/Aegon. I hope he goes bye bye bye quickly in TWOW.

 

 

Edited by The Map Guy
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On 11/27/2019 at 10:44 AM, #1dolFAN said:

Yes but way before any H. Rider Haggard story, the real-life Genghis Khan infamously killed an enemy by pouring a boiling pot of (SILVER) over his head.

Crassus also comes to mind.

On 11/27/2019 at 10:44 AM, #1dolFAN said:

Obviously George Martin uses much real life historical figures and events to influence his work.. heck the whole Dothraki are essentially Mongols!

Huns seem to fit better. The Mongols were pretty organised and administratively adept. The Dothraki (and Huns), not so much.

 

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10 hours ago, corbon said:

Crassus also comes to mind.

That was done only post-humously. Manius Aquilius did actually die of a drink of molten gold.

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I'm sure this has been mentioned before but I posted in another thread about how Sansa's story has always reminded me of different Disney princess stories (Not that I think this is a Disney story) For instance her songs & wanting to meet prince charming, having an evil step  mother in law is reminiscent of Cinderella. There are some pretty good Beauty & the Beast parallels with Sansa & Sandor/ Sansa & Tyrion. Even some of Aladdin with Little Finger - a low born boy comes & "rescues" her from court life to take show her a whole new world  er... realm. All the while pretending to be someone he isn't. Anyway, so I started digging a little into Aladdin and the Wonderful Lamp & I think there may be a few more parallels with Little Finger & Aladdin. 

In the Disney story Aladdin is an orphaned street urchin, in Aladdin & the wonderful lamp Aladdin's father has died but his mother still lives. In both though, they are poor. A man pretending to be Aladdin's uncle shows up & offers to set up a shop & give him merchandise so Aladdin will have the means to support his mother & his self. Aladdin later finds out (after the "uncle" has trapped him in the cave) that he isn't his uncle at all but a magician wanting to use Aladdin to procure the lamp for himself. - This is tenuous at best but the magician "uncle" reminds me of Jon Arryn & Varys mixed together. Jon Arryn helped LF rise through the ranks & while we don't know for sure what Varys's end game is I think it may be likely he will ultimately want to take down Petyr. 

So, Aladdin gets the lamp & one day peeks on the princess taking a bath. A little perverted if you ask me, but then again so is Petyr. After seeing this princess he just has to have her & talks his mother into going & speaking to the sultan for him, along with some jewels as a gift. The Sultan agrees to the marriage but then reneges on the agreement, allowing the Vizir's son to marry the princess instead. Aladdin gets wind & feels very cheated. Definitely not the exact same situation but Petry likely felt very cheated by not getting Cat's hand in marriage also. 

Aladdin is angry & upon the Princess & the Vizir's son first night together Aladdin uses the genie & the lamp to remove the Vizir's son from the bed & put him out in the cold while he, sleeps in bed with the Princess, telling her he is her husband, he will protect her, & that no harm will come to her. Again probably tenuous (I'm not very good at seeing parallels, references, or homages so go easy on me here) but this brings to mind Little Finger sleeping with Lysa believing it is Cat. Also promising to protect Sansa. 

The Princess ends up, unknowingly, giving the magic lamp to the pretend magician uncle, almost causing Aladdin's demise but Aladdin gets the lamp back & all is well. He ends up being Sultan. While I would enjoy Sansa having a hand in his downfall, unknowingly or not, I don't believe he will end up being King. 

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Thanks for Aladdin and the Wonderful Lamp!

I'll take over for Disney's Aladdin:

Make way! For the next theory!!

A great drum led the royal procession to clear their way through the streets. Between each beat, a shavepate herald in a shirt of polished copper disks cried for the crowd to part. BOMM. "They come!" BOMM. "Make way!" BOMM. "The queen!" BOMM. "The king!" BOMM. Behind the drum marched Brazen Beasts four abreast. Some carried cudgels, others staves; all wore pleated skirts, leathern sandals, and patchwork cloaks sewn from squares of many colors to echo the many-colored bricks of Meereen. Their masks gleamed in the sun: boars and bulls, hawks and herons, lions and tigers and bears, fork-tongued serpents and hideous basilisks.

Strong Belwas, who had no love for horses, walked in front of them in his studded vest, his scarred brown belly jiggling with every step. Irri and Jhiqui followed ahorse, with Aggo and Rakharo, then Reznak in an ornate sedan chair with an awning to keep the sun off his head. Ser Barristan Selmy rode at Dany's side, his armor flashing in the sun. A long cloak flowed from his shoulders, bleached as white as bone. On his left arm was a large white shield. A little farther back was Quentyn Martell, the Dornish prince, with his two companions.
 
The column crept slowly down the long brick street. BOMM. "They come!" BOMM. "Our queen. Our king." BOMM. "Make way."
 
Dany could hear her handmaids arguing behind her, debating who was going to win the day's final match. Jhiqui favored the gigantic Goghor, who looked more bull than man, even to the bronze ring in his nose. Irri insisted that Belaquo Bonebreaker's flail would prove the giant's undoing. My handmaids are Dothraki, she told herself. Death rides with every khalasar. The day she wed Khal Drogo, the arakhs had flashed at her wedding feast, and men had died whilst others drank and mated. Life and death went hand in hand amongst the horselords, and a sprinkling of blood was thought to bless a marriage. Her new marriage would soon be drenched in blood. How blessed it would be.
{Daenerys IX ADWD}

Cue in Aladdin - Prince Ali

 

Sooo much in Disney Aladdin, I don't even know where to begin.

evil Jafer = evil Jafar?
Mormont's Raven = Fake talking parrot on Jafar's shoulders
Blackgate = Cave of Wonders
Jaqen's 3 death wishes = Genie's 3 wishes
Arianne in Tower AFFC = Jasmine locked in the Palace
Daenerys in Market AGOT = Jasmine at the marketplace
Goldcloaks searching for Gendry and not Arya = Jafar's guards searching for Aladdin and not Jasmine

 

Joffery's dung = Marketplace in chaos over a loaf of bread, but the guards end up in poop

 

Tyrion's nose at the 1:40 mark

 

There's more, I just can't remember off the top of my head ... but I do like the moon-lit skies, fireworks and the dragon at the end.

Edited by The Map Guy

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7 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Sooo much in Disney Aladdin, I don't even know where to begin.

evil Jafer = evil Jafar?
Mormont's Raven = Fake talking parrot on Jafar's shoulders
Blackgate = Cave of Wonders
Jaqen's 3 death wishes = Genie's 3 wishes
Arianne in Tower AFFC = Jasmine locked in the Palace
Daenerys in Market AGOT = Jasmine at the marketplace
Goldcloaks searching for Gendry and not Arya = Jafar's guards searching for Aladdin and not Jasmine

I love it! 

Especially the bolded, I had never thought of that. In Aladdin & the wonderful lamp he isn't limited to 3 wishes but gets as many wishes as he wants as long as he has the lamp. Eventually, Arya will likely get as many wishes as she wants as well, because she will have been taught to do it herself. 

7 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Tyrion's nose at the 1:40 mark

 

:lmao:Yes! 

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15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Especially the bolded, I had never thought of that. In Aladdin & the wonderful lamp he isn't limited to 3 wishes but gets as many wishes as he wants as long as he has the lamp. Eventually, Arya will likely get as many wishes as she wants as well, because she will have been taught to do it herself.

I wish I can have as many wishes as I can lol

Arya uses Jaqen's 3rd death wish on Jaqen ... his death
Aladdin uses Genie's 3rd wish on Genie ... his freedom

Actually the 3rd wish of each were complicated

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Before the good folk of Agrabah had to make way for Disney's Aladdin, the Romans had to make way for Elizabeth Taylor's Cleopatra. 

The difference is that for Elizabeth Taylor, you don't need an announcement to "Make Way" for her ... you just "Make Way" instinctively

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I just came across this reference regarding Tyrion.

The color Tyrian purple is what the Roman emperors used to wear, and even centuries before that, it was associated with nobility and higher echelons of society. Although I don't believe in A+J=T, this could give some fodder for its supporters, giving Tyrion a royal origin (the Iron Throne was very much the Westeros Empire). I've noticed many relate Tyrion and Claudius, a Roman emperor

I do like this theory because of what it entails for Tyrion's name pronunciation. I think it was a disservice that the HBO's ASoIaF doujinshi by Dumb&Dumber standardized Tyrion's pronunciation as Tee-ree-on when it probably should've been closer to Tyrone, hence the Tyrian connection would make it Tie-ron, establishing an etymological connection with Tywin Tie-win, in which the same particle has the same pronunciation

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Not sure if it's intentional or a neat coincidence but Lyanna/Luthien have interesting similarities. Dark haired and grey eyed with a look-alike descendant/niece (Arya/Arwen). Luthien's blue dress with flowers and Lyanna's garland of blue roses.

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Has GRRM ever mentioned "The Flight of Dragons" by Peter Dickinson as an influence?

Edited by Ser Leftwich

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21 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Was Shae named after Shea Stadium? (For those who don't know, Shea Stadium was the home field for the NY Mets up until a few years ago. GRRM is a Mets fan).

Not sure, but if so ... does that mean Tyrion hit a home run at Shae??? :P

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