2241 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) I didn't feel like reading the entire topic to see if this has already been addressed (I know, I'm lazy), but I've always wondered if the Mountains of the Moon are named after the Grateful Dead song of the same name. A careful review of the lyrics as discussed here just might back this idea up (along with a couple of my own ideas). Some of these ideas require a bit of a stretch, but I sure think there might be some inspiration taken from the song. The lyrics are as follows:Cold Mountain waterthe jade merchant's daughterMountains of the Moon, Bow and bend to meHi ho the Carrion CrowFolderolderiddleHi Ho the Carrion CrowBow and bend to meHey Tom BanjoHey a laurelMore than laurelYou may sowMore than laurelYou may sowHey the laurelHey the cityIn the rainHey, hey,Hey the white wheatWaving in the wind20 degrees of solitude20 degrees in allAll the dancing kings & wivesassembled in the hallLost is a long & lonely timeFairy Sybil flyingAll along the all alongthe Mountains of the MoonHey Tom BanjoIt's time to matterThe Earth will see youon through this timeThe Earth will see you onthrough this timeDown by the waterThe Marsh King's DaughterDid you know?Clothed in tattersAlways will beTom, where did you go?Mountains of the Moon, ElectraMountains of the MoonAll along theAll along theMountains of the MoonHi Ho the Carrion CrowFolderolderiddleHi Ho the Carrion CrowBow and bend to meBend to mejade merchant's maughter - Comparable to the title of the song "Silk Merchant's Daughter", in which a woman disguises herself as a man to go in search of her true love. This is roughly analogous to the lengths Lysa went through to win the "love" of Littlefinger.carrion crow - This one should be fairly obvious :)Tom Banjo - At least one person discussing the song at the site suggested that Tom Banjo might be a reference to Tom Bombadil, who was, among other things, very fond of singing...much like Marillion.laurel - Signifying, among other things, victory in battle. Maybe the Vale of Arryn will finally start taking part in the battles that are going on and somehow be a key to someone's victory.Bow and bend to me - Aside from the obvious act of bowing to a King, this line, in a number of variations, is used as a refrain in the ballad "The Two Sisters." Think Catelyn and Lysa.All the dancing kings & wives - There are all sorts of kings in the realm, and all of them have wives. Are they all "dancing to someone's tune?"Marsh King - A nickname of Edward the Great, so named for his act of raising an army to defeat the invading Danes. Maybe another hint that the Vale will finally start participating in the battles that are going on? Ok, I know this one is a bit of a stretch, but Daenarys does plan on invading the Seven Kingdoms eventually. Also, Marsh King might actually work better as a reference to Howland Reed, but hey, the song is Mountains of the Moon, not Greywater Watch :)Anywho, that's my take on how the song Mountains of the Moon might have influenced GRRM's decision to so name the mountains near the Vale of Arryn. There are plenty of other lines in the song that someone could pick apart ("The Marsh King's DaughterDid you know? Clothed in tatters..." could be seen as the inspiration behind Mya Stone, if you think that The Marsh King is a reference to King Robert, just as an example); I highlighted the ones I thought made the most sense. Edited November 23, 2009 by 2241 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emo Targaryen Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Might be coincidence, but Tyrion once asks Jaime, what he sees in Cersei besides his own perfect reflection. Paradise Lost, book II, lines 762-767:[sin speaks to Satan:]I pleased, and with attractive graces wonThe most averse—thee chiefly, who, full oftThyself in me thy perfect image viewing,Becam'st enamoured; and such joy thou took'stWith me in secret that my womb conceivedA growing burden.While Cersei and Jaime are siblings, Sin is Satan's daughter (in a way - she sprang from his brain when he was in his darkest thoughts). From their incestuous Relationship, Death is born. Literally. To be fair, here the parallels end - upon birth, Death mutilates the nether regions of his mother and then goes on to rape her. Cersei is far better off. Yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Bruce the Hound KG Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) "Darkstar" could also be a reference to Babylon 5, if I remember correctly there was a Mimbari Battleship going by that name... the one that Sheridan destroyed in the Mimbari war.It was the Blackstaredit:Opps didn't look to see I was reading the first page Edited December 7, 2009 by Ser Bruce the Hound KG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainThatRides Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros may refer, at least in influence, to the heptarchy of Anglo-Saxon England; these were the seven kingdoms of Northumbria, Mercia, Kent, East Anglia, Essex, Sussex and Wessex. These kingdoms were autonomous states that warred amongst themselves until the Norman conquest of William the Conqueror.Northumbria - the North, also holds some relevancy in the Stark/York reference. The other kingdoms may be geographically similar but it's hard to tell on that basis alone; one could imagine Wessex as Dorne, Sussex as the Reach, Kent as the Stormlands, Essex as the Riverlands, East Anglia as the Vale, and Mercia as the West. These kingdoms were set up by the invading Anglo-Saxons (Andals) who merged with/replaced the native Britons (First Men). The land north of Hadrian's wall (the Wall) remains untainted by Anglo-Saxon influence and is inhabited by the Scots and Picts (Wildlings). The Norman invasion (Targaryen conquest) unified these kingdoms into a single state under William (Aegon) the Conqueror. Down the line, the Lancastrians (Lannisters) do battle with the Yorkists (Starks), descendants of Mercia and Northumbria, in the medieval Wars of the Roses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim da reaper Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) [*] Lord Titus Peake: A reference to Mervyn Peake and his seminal work of fantasy,the Gormenghast trilogy, starting with Titus Groan.Pyke always reminds me of Gormenghast, both gloomy windswept castles, and Steerpike is of course the infamous antagonist. Edited January 1, 2010 by Dat Crooked Crow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raisin Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I had forgotten this one, but I just came across a play mentioned in the last Arya chapter (or first Cat of the Canals one, I suppose) of AFfC: The Lord of the Woeful CountenanceYay Don Quixote! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Luke Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 (edited) Yes, GRRM is a Dead fan. He even looks like Jerry. Edited March 7, 2010 by Ser Luke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liliedhe Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 Hi, everybody, here are a couple of my observations. A completely mixed bag, from poetry to historical parallels:First of all, the title of "Song of Ice and Fire" always made me think of this poem by Robert Frost:Fire and IceSome say the world will end in fire,Some say in ice.From what I've tasted of desireI hold with those who favor fire.But if it had to perish twice,I think I know enough of hateTo say that for destruction iceIs also greatAnd would suffice.Robert FrostThen, in AFfC, Lancel quotes Oscar Wilde, from the Ballad of Reading Gaol, when he says that "The brave man slays with a sword, the craven with a wine skin."The original: Yet each man kills the thing he lovesBy each let this be heard.Some do it with a bitter look,Some with a flattering word.The coward does it with a kiss,The brave man with a sword!And, when I recently reread that poem, I also found this: Some kill their love when they are young, And some when they are old;Some strangle with the hands of Lust, Some with the hands of Gold:The kindest use a knife, because The dead so soon grow cold.Seems familiar? Since the poem is - among other things - about the things done for love or to love ones, I'm sure it would be possible to find more unspecified allusions, too, but the "hands of gold" are rather striking.Ok, on to history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_Nesle_AffairThe fate of Margaret of Burgundy has a lot of parallels to the plot Cersei concots to bring down Margaery and her cousins: both get accused of adultery. The guilty men are knights and brothers, and the thing is brought to light by a beautiful blonde queen with a reputation for being a b*tch... Let's just hope Margaery doesn't end like Margaret.A lot is made of the War of Roses parallels, but just one really struck me: Edward IV breaking a marriage contract and marrying Elizabeth Woodeville in secret, thus alienating his most powerful supporter, while bringing his bride's relatives to court and making them influential. But of course, this is just a very, very superficial parallel, aside from the fact that Woodeville sounds a bit like Westerling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalseSpring Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros may refer, at least in influence, to the heptarchy of Anglo-Saxon England; these were the seven kingdoms of Northumbria, Mercia, Kent, East Anglia, Essex, Sussex and Wessex. These kingdoms were autonomous states that warred amongst themselves until the Norman conquest of William the Conqueror.Northumbria - the North, also holds some relevancy in the Stark/York reference. The other kingdoms may be geographically similar but it's hard to tell on that basis alone; one could imagine Wessex as Dorne, Sussex as the Reach, Kent as the Stormlands, Essex as the Riverlands, East Anglia as the Vale, and Mercia as the West. These kingdoms were set up by the invading Anglo-Saxons (Andals) who merged with/replaced the native Britons (First Men). The land north of Hadrian's wall (the Wall) remains untainted by Anglo-Saxon influence and is inhabited by the Scots and Picts (Wildlings). The Norman invasion (Targaryen conquest) unified these kingdoms into a single state under William (Aegon) the Conqueror. Down the line, the Lancastrians (Lannisters) do battle with the Yorkists (Starks), descendants of Mercia and Northumbria, in the medieval Wars of the Roses.I think GRRM already mentioned that it was partially inspired by ivanhoe, so your York/Lancastrian parallel is not far off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HT Reddy Posted May 29, 2010 Share Posted May 29, 2010 The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros may refer, at least in influence, to the heptarchy of Anglo-Saxon England; these were the seven kingdoms of Northumbria, Mercia, Kent, East Anglia, Essex, Sussex and Wessex. These kingdoms were autonomous states that warred amongst themselves until the Norman conquest of William the Conqueror.England was unified before 1066, but the parallel has struck me before so your point stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowned Princess Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 (edited) I would like to echo the others who brought up Ragnarok (and all Norse myth, just generally, definitely for names anyway)... Read it enough and with the right eyes and you'll start to think everything in aSoIaF references it! For the uninitiated check the Wikipedia entry here and pick out the familiars.I was also considering if the Pale Mare (as mentioned as coming to Dany by Quaithe in aDwD) was an allusion to the wife of Surtr in Norse myth. Surtr was a fire giant, the ruin of the realm of fire, one of the Norse nine worlds. It is in the South; to the North is the realm of Ice. Surtr supposedly carried a bright sword and was go to battle against all the principal old Gods, in particular battle Freyr, and at the end the flames he generated would cover the world. His wife was Sinmara, who guarded a special weapon (the identity of which is disputed but is considered to be one forged by a Wayland the Smith, who made a lot of swords that were passed down and reforged, inlcuding one that ended up in the possession of the family of Charlemagne and Ogier the Dane, but I digress...). Sinmara's name apparently literally translates as "Pale Mare" (as in nightmare), although there's argument about that... Anyway the parallel I would draw to aSoIaF would be Stannis and Melisandre. Either that or Dany would be Surtr and Sinmara would be someone else...I am definitely reading too much into it though. You start to use the myths to predict what will happen in the books, and then you start to go crazy. :bang: Edited June 22, 2010 by Drowned Princess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbigski Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 (edited) I would like to echo the others who brought up Ragnarok (and all Norse myth, just generally, definitely for names anyway)... Read it enough and with the right eyes and you'll start to think everything in aSoIaF references it! For the uninitiated check the Wikipedia entry here and pick out the familiars.I was also considering if the Pale Mare (as mentioned as coming to Dany by Quaithe in aDwD) was an allusion to the wife of Surtr in Norse myth. Surtr was a fire giant, the ruin of the realm of fire, one of the Norse nine worlds. It is in the South; to the North is the realm of Ice. Surtr supposedly carried a bright sword and was go to battle against all the principal old Gods, in particular battle Freyr, and at the end the flames he generated would cover the world. His wife was Sinmara, who guarded a special weapon (the identity of which is disputed but is considered to be one forged by a Wayland the Smith, who made a lot of swords that were passed down and reforged, inlcuding one that ended up in the possession of the family of Charlemagne and Ogier the Dane, but I digress...). Sinmara's name apparently literally translates as "Pale Mare" (as in nightmare), although there's argument about that... Anyway the parallel I would draw to aSoIaF would be Stannis and Melisandre. Either that or Dany would be Surtr and Sinmara would be someone else...I am definitely reading too much into it though. You start to use the myths to predict what will happen in the books, and then you start to go crazy. :bang:Are spoiler tags really necessary on 1200 year old plus myths? Besides, if you're talking about the Southern continents, then your man isn't Stannis, it's Jhalabar Xho. I mean, if the Prince who was Promised has anything to do with Summer, then our favorite parasite from the Summer Islands has got to be a strong contender. Edited June 26, 2010 by mcbigski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowned Princess Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 Haha, the spoiler tag was for the bit from the Dany chapter in aDwD, not the myth itself! I then couldn't seem to find a suitable place to come back out the spoiler again, and so just ended up putting the whole thing in there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everyoneelses Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 Dunno if it's right place to post it but.. A band called Blind Guardian released recently a song in which they pay tribute to Martin's work. Here's the lyrics:War Of The ThronesNothing will grow hereIcy fields - blackened sorrowLegacy of a lost mindFeed my voidWhat you're waiting forI'm too lateIt is more than a gameThe river revealsNow I'm in between these linesI cannot escape it seemsSail on, my friendAll I ever feel isAll I ever see isWalls they fallWhen the march of the others beginAll I ever feel isAll I ever see isRise and fallWhen the War of the Thrones shall beginWhile I sit there in silenceCome and talk to meI can't free my mindIt is all I'm begging forWhile I sit there in silenceWill it ever end?Will I find what I'm longing for?Will I ever walk out of the shadows so grey?I'm condemned, I am hallowedIcy fields they won't hurt anymoreWill you walk with me?Any furtherThere at world's endIt's meI singI cannot escape it seemsSadly I singAll I ever feel isAll I ever see isWalls they fallWhen the march of the others beginAll I ever feel isAll I ever see isRise and fallWhen the War of the Thrones shall beginAwayWatch the river it flowsNow and everI cannot believe in moreAnd now my time will comeCarry onWill I ever leran from the past?Will I fade away?Will I ever stay where the shadows will grow?There is luck at the gallowsI will free my mindSoon it will showLet it rainThere'll be no springMy dream is a mirrorIt reveals a matter of liesAll I ever feel isAll I ever see isWalls they fallWhen the march of the others beginAll I ever feel isAll I ever see isRise and fallWhen the War of the Thrones shall beginLeave a fee for the tillermanAnd the river behindJon's POV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feardeathbywater Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 Anybody mentioned the Reader's Tower and the library from The Name of the Rose yet?Or Maester Aemon as Jorge Luis Borges? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everyoneelses Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 Oh there's one more song, this time seems to be about Bran.Voice In The DarkA sense of denialCome witness my trialThe crow has turned into a liarI’ll live, I may dieI’ve failed though I’ve triedBut finally I flyIt is the foolWho puts faith in false saviorsThe innocent understandsHe’s still fallingAnd furthermoreHe’s now aware“Come spread your wingsAwake now”The enemy withinWill soon appearYou’re trapped in my mindAsk for the keyDon’t search for fine linesThere’s no releaseThough I can feel its presenceThere’s a sign to revealThen after allI’m sure I’ll keep on fallingThey send a signWhen dead winter will come againThere from the ruins I will riseFear the voice in the darkBe aware nowBelieve in dark wings and dark wordsThe shadow returnsFear the voice in the darkBe aware nowBlack shadows they hide and they waitBut they soon will returnIt will never be the sameAnd nothing remainsI can’t find a wayBut I’m facing itOh there will be no saviorI can foresee all the painThey are about to creep in“Curse me, hate me, hurt me, kill me”Oh they will rest no longer“Paralyzed and frozenFree your mindYou’re brokenParalyzed and frozenLearn to roamDon’t look back”On stunning fields of mayhemI will find no reliefIt’s just a dreamI wish that I could tell youThe vision fadesThere is no sanctuaryWhat will go upSurely comes downFear the voice in the darkBe aware nowBelieve in dark wings and dark wordsThe shadow returnsFear the voice in the darkBe aware nowBlack shadows they hide and they waitBut they soon will returnIn vainStill I don’t understandSo talk to me againWhy do I fear these words?What keeps holding me back?I hear a voiceIt comes from everywhere“Now find a wayCause you’re the keyBegin to understand”The descending endsNow I know I won’t fly againOn through the mist, I’m facing ground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feardeathbywater Posted July 6, 2010 Share Posted July 6, 2010 Has the Lannister-Borgia connection been discussed on this thread (or any other) yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 I don't really see where that fits outside of Jaime and Cersei. Tywin and Tyrion don't seem to fit the rest of the Borgia mold. I could be totally wrong though...would not be the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feardeathbywater Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 (edited) Tywin bears a passing resemblance to Alexander Borgia...a cunning, ruthless, lecherous hypocrite who used his sacred office to advance his family interests. He was good at making (and spending) money, too. Tyrion...well, there were a lot of Borgias, including one "unnamed" one. I don't know the history well enough, but I assume we could fit him in there somewhere.Lothor Brune (or was it someone else on the boat?) holding the torch downwards right before Dontos Hollard has a quarrel with some quarrels. The reversed torch is a Roman death symbol.Petyr offering pomegranite and pomegranite seeds to Sansa at his tower house suggests Hades and Persephone. Fortunately (perhaps)for Sansa she doesn't take any, choosing a pear instead.I suppose that Petyr Baelish resembles Hades/Plutus in several ways. Edited August 6, 2010 by feardeathbywater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted August 7, 2010 Share Posted August 7, 2010 There have been several mentions of Memory, Sorrow and Thorn in this thread.. but there are quite a few more that deserve mentioning.1) Forget King Arthur and the sword in the stone. Arthur Dayne is Camaris from MST. Both were the finest knights in the realm, known as much for honor as for martial skill. **Both wield a sword forged from a meteorite** (Looney theory based on this connection about to be posted after I finish this one).2) Pryrates, a fire mage who comes from a far off land, is closest advisor to the king and wields undue influence. An obvious Melisandre. Also, said king was the unpopular younger brother of a popular king.3) There is an ancient evil that arises in the frozen north. I don't need to explain that one. :)4) In MST there are good elves (hidden from humanity and thought extinct) and bad elves (ancient evil in the north). I suspect that the Children of the Forest are the good-guy counterpart, "hidden good guy elves" (even if they are all dead in aSoIaF. I bet they are not, however). This also makes me suspect that the CotF and the Others have similar origins.5) If R+L = J is true (I think it is), the main character of MST is a "hidden heir" a la Jon Snow. This is by itself, not much since the hidden heir thing has been done a million times, but considering all the other parallels, it goes to show how much Martin was inspired by MST.6) Also, though it certainly isn't unique to the two series, MST used shifting POV's as the narrative style.I recall that there are even more parallels, but I read MST more than 5 years ago. When I read it, I had already read the pre-Feast books at least 4 times each. Reading MST was fun.. it wasn't great, but there was a wealth of similarities to aSoIaF which enhanced the experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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